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#31750 - 12/15/04 08:51 PM Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP
Anonymous
Unregistered


HI I might be getting two female Possible Leucistic Het's and I want to breed one with a male Leucistic Het and the other with a male Mosaic Het what Kinda color would these produce??

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#31751 - 12/15/04 10:51 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


They will most likely produce possible hets or leucistics. The mosaic het might get you some odd white marks as well, but nothing can be garenteed with hets...

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#31752 - 12/15/04 11:57 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It depends on how "possible" your possible hets are.
What are they from? How do you know that the lineage is being accurately represented? Not too many people have leucistic gene carrying gliders that are easy to get, be careful you're not getting ripped off.

Most people usually refer to gliders from a het to standard pairing as a possible het.
If they are from possible hets themselves then there's not much of a chance that your gliders will carry the genes. If they come from a leucistic parent, then they will be hets. If they come from a het to standard pairing, then they will have a 25% chance of carrying the leucistic gene. The outcome of your breeding will be most obviously an empty wallet, and it could produce anything from standard to het to leucistic. Make sure you get the lineage of your gliders and verify that the breeder from which you are getting them from is reputable. Good luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#31753 - 12/16/04 12:04 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmm... your possible leucistic hets wouldn't happen to be coming from Nebraska or Missouri, would they? A friend of mine was contacted recently by *someone* trying to sell them to her, as well.

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#31754 - 12/16/04 12:20 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
One needs to know a little more about possible het breedings. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

It is best if one can purchase what is called a 66% Possible Het. This Possible het is produced by Two 100% Hets from leucistic lineage. 2 out of 3 of 66% Possible Het for Leucistics.....will carry the Leucistic gene. Which is a better ratio for producing white.

A Pairing of a 100% Leucistic Het x normal produces what is called 50% Possible Leucistic Het. Half of these offspring will carry the white gene and half will not.

Therefore...do not over look the 66% Possible Het. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> No....no leucistic hets are coming from me. Now who in Nebraska has Leucistic or Leucistic Hets?


Edited by Judie (12/16/04 12:26 AM)

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#31755 - 12/16/04 12:29 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
If they come from a het to standard pairing, then they will have a 25% chance of carrying the leucistic gene.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

If you breed a proven het to a standard, 50% of the babies would have the leucistic gene as I understand it. 50% will not.


It is hard to say what you are going to get from pairing those gliders, but my guess is anything from standards, to more hets, maybe even a leucistic if they both have the gene. I agree with Big Ern though, be careful who you get your gliders from, there aren't very many working with this variation right now. Ask for references, and get all the information you can before getting your glider.


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#31756 - 12/16/04 12:33 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
Sorry Judie, LOL I was still typing when you posted <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders

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#31757 - 12/16/04 12:46 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oops! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I should have been more clear in my earlier post. The person trying to sell these "hets" to my friend likely does not have hets at all, as this person has been known to scam with false hets before.

Was just trying to warn KristoperDeRose to be very cautious when dealing in hets unless one is dealing with a known respectable breeder. Sorry about any confusion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#31758 - 12/16/04 03:06 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


yes yes, I mispoke on the het to standard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My numbers are way wrong....sometimes it's just easier for me to do the punnett square...

het+standard=50% hets and 50% standard
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> T T
T TT TT
t Tt Tt

het+het= 25%standard 50%hets 25%leucistic
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> T t
T TT Tt
t Tt tt
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Kinda hard to make a punnett square in a post..

Judie, I still don't quite get the 66% het? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Edited by big ern! (12/16/04 03:19 AM)

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#31759 - 12/16/04 03:15 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Hey....don't worry....I am the worlds worse at making mistakes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#31760 - 12/16/04 03:30 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh Ok I see what you are saying.
With two hets, the leucistic gene is gonna be a little more present than a het X normal combination. It would figure that the two hets offspring would have to have a stronger presence of the leucistic genes than the offspring of a het and a normal. 66% isn't the actual number produced but more or less something to differentiate between a het produced from a het X normal and a het from a het X het.
I think that's right, I think I remember talking about this 66% stuff with Priscilla a while back...

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#31761 - 12/16/04 08:39 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
People that buy for Leucistic genetics don't just buy the original Leucistic or buy the het, and not expect to keep some offspring. Most people investing in a Leucistic do so to build a program of Leucistics, platinums, or mozaics. I only have one client that is wanting one for a pet and plans on putting it with a Mozaic Male that is neutered. She has been a licensed breeder for 5 years. Most people that purchase them, keep some of the offspring. They don't sell every offspring they have. With that in mind, if you don't have 4 pair now, you will have after purchasing the Leucistic. If having four pair or 4 cages is a problem, then you really should think twice about getting into that program. You will have them eventually. For whatever reason you can't or don't want to now, ie not enough space, not enough time, those reasons could still be there later because sometimes situations don't change. breeders that have Leucistic don't want to sell to someone else that doesn't have those capabilities or is not willing to create them because they have worked hard to see the line being built up. Four years ago there was only one or two in the US. We have worked hard to build up the numbers so that when we retire, we have given something back to the glider community that is sound and solid. We want those that we sell to to have the same passion that we do. Grant it, we cannot instill this in one person, but with a small amount of regulating we can reach toward that goal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
I am sorry for those I say no to. I feel like if you really want to achieve your goal you will find a way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
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USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

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#31762 - 12/16/04 10:51 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
66% Possible Het...two out of three babies produced should carry the white gene which = 66%....thus the 66% Possible Het.

Example: Little Sesamie who is a Leucistic is paired to a Proven Het named Shy Baby. But when I purchased Shy Baby....geneticaly he was a 66% Possible Het and at the same time....there was a 33% chance of not being a carrier of the leucistic gene. Little did I know...Shy Baby was a carrier of the recessive leucistic gene. This pair of Leucistics have since produced 4 white babies and three 100% hets this year which is close to the 66% possibility of producing white on average for this pair of leucistic gliders.
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#31763 - 12/16/04 01:40 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie, is that 66% by your own figures from what you have produced?
The 66% figure makes sense when you look at the punnett square and remove the one in four that will show the leucistic gene, which leaves you with three gliders that will show standard. Two of those three that show the standard coloration will end up being hets which will leave you with 66% of standard colored gliders resulting from a het to het breeding being heterozygous for the leucistic gene. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

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#31764 - 12/16/04 08:04 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41292
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
[:"blue"] This topic has been brought back to the board because it is an interesting discussion.

There will be no more arguing. Any personal differences should be kept off the board.

[/]
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#31765 - 12/16/04 10:38 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm totally confused, did I miss something? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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#31766 - 12/17/04 12:59 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


so what if you breed a leu. to a wfb or a wfc?
what about cinnamons with leu. I know you guys are just talking about normals with them, or would a cinnamon be classified as a normal too?

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#31767 - 12/17/04 01:22 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Yes, seven babies...four white and three normal colored 100% hets. Offspring from this pair which are of normal coloration....are 100% Leucistic Hets due to the fact that Sesamie is a BEW herself. Shy Baby was the 66% Possible Het but is now considered a Proven Het.

By breeding the BEW to a 66% Possible Het... if the 66% Het carries the white gene....this increases the possibility of producing white at a higher percentage rate at least in theory with the pundent square and seems to agree with what this pair of Leucistic's has produced.
_________________________
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#31768 - 12/17/04 08:48 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41292
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
[:"blue"]Big Ern,
Yes, I guess you did but nothing major. There was just a personal issue that needed to be taken off the board so I cleaned up the thread so the discussion could continue <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [/]
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#31769 - 12/17/04 01:13 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Cool, I got filled in.
I was just totally confused since your post came after mine!
I didn't think I was arguing, lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Wfb and cinnies when bred with leucistics figure in pretty much the same way as normals since leucistic is a recessive trait and doesn't really mix with the other trait/colors. The hets may show the cinnie or wf color, but, in regards to the leucistic coloring, it's usually either there or not there. It is theorized that when leucistic and wf cross that sometimes platinum might result. But, because it is recessive, in order to produce leucistic gliders, both parents must posess the genes. Sometimes people do breed leucistics and hets to other normals, variations and wf's to introduce some outside blood into their line since the leucistic lines are a bit close.

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#31770 - 12/18/04 02:28 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
When breeding a WF Blonde to a Leucistic....if one or both offspring are WF Blonde then this is called a Double Het. It will produce both WF Blonde offspring when bred to a White Face Blonde or normal and also Leucistic when bred to another Leucistic or Leucistic Het.

Example of this breeding was with Sesamie with Sandman(White Face Blonde) which produced two offspring...of which one was a White Face Blonde in coloration but also a 100% Leucistic Het and was named Sunny. His sister was normal coloration so is a 100% Het named Sapphire. Sapphire is owned by Priscilla and has been implimented into her breeding program. Sunny is owned by Sheila and has since produced White as well as White Face Blonde.

The breeding that Sheila did recently was with a 100% Leucistic Het to a WF Blonde. This was interesting as the genes now are now aligned differently. The offspring is a platinum glider.

So.... the most interesting variations of color will come from the Het to Het combinations of color.


Edited by Judie (12/18/04 06:58 AM)

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#31771 - 12/18/04 04:09 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Has anyone had any double het X double het combinations?
That would definitely induce some variety.
It would be cool to see the outcome.

In regards to the platinum, if the wf and leucistic are co-dominating, and leucistic is supposed to be a recessive trait, what does that say about the wf trait? It obviously isn't recessive because people produce wf's all the time with one wf parent, and supposedly breeders have been getting around 60% wf offspring from a normal and a wf. So does the wf trait have more genetic influence than the wild type standard trait? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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#31772 - 12/18/04 06:10 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
We know the Leucistic is produced by a recessive gene because it requires both parents to be carriers of that gene in order to produce white.

On the other hand...WF Blonde is a dominant gene from what some have told me. I have always thought of it as co-dominant but I could be wrong.

When the WF is paired to the Leucistic it appears to be co-dominant to the normal color. One WF Blonde in coloration and one normal colored het but this breeding I only did one time so it may be different when repeated.

Double Hets now can carry both genes and only express one homozygously yet produce both variations or a new variation in their offspring but is dependent on what it is bred to. Now this one...I am guessing at. I have not gotten into the double het x double het thing yet.

I kept two of Sesamie and Shy Baby's Leucistic offspring. Tiki a white female has babies in pouch by a second generation wf blonde. The babies are due oop. around the end of the month and it will be interesting to see if they are both WFaced or normal Hets, one WFace and one het, or one green and one purple. One thing for sure...it will not be White! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> The first time I did a WFaced to Leucistic breeding...the WF Blonde male was produced by one WF Blonde. A little more wf blonde in this breeding. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Breeding double hets x double hets has not been done yet with the few of us who have Leucistics that I am aware of.

On the other hand, with Priscilla's gliders and the various shades she gets ....makes me wonder if that is the key to her beautifull gliders. Since some of them originated from another breeder who did extensive inbreeding with only two leucistics... this would seem to explain the white on white variations she is producing. My guess is...her white on white variation was unknowingly created by inbreeding double hets by the previous breeder who was not interested in producing Leucistic but rather the irreg. color patterns on white.

Are we all having fun yet? We all still want to breed for various colors? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Please keep in mind I am only a hobby breeder and this genetic thing I am a real novice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> So...please correct me if I am wrong as I am still learning like everyone else. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Judie (12/18/04 11:23 PM)
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#31773 - 12/18/04 10:42 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Judie, We are having great fun!!! Honestly if I had not taken Biology 101 in college, I wouldn't even have a slim clue what you are talking about though. lol. Still, for me, I think I will leave the color breeding up to the "professionals" (and even though you say you are a hobby breeder, your knowledge makes you a professional in my opinion) and be content with the grays. (Although I don't want to be a breeder at all, nature has a way of stepping in on me)
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#31774 - 12/18/04 02:46 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for all of the info Judie, sometimes all of the genetic stuff gets so confusing for me because there are so many possibilites and we just don't know enough about the genetic makeup of a glider. It's such an intriguing mystery, and people like you are helping to unravel it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Has anyone asked Priscilla about how she gets all of those partially white gliders? Does she keep that stuff top secret?

I have a leucistic het male and I am going to breed him to what hopefully is a double het(keeping my fingers crossed!) Their babies I am planning on pairing with my wf babies, so now I think I am going to shoot for the double het breeding to see what happens. It's a long ways off, all of the gliders mentioned are still pretty young, but, I think I'll do it to see what happens. If Honey and Orion produce a white baby then that would be the first step. If they don't then I'll probably pair him with a wf girl and go from there.....either way I'll probably have to break the bank to get another leu het <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

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#31775 - 12/18/04 10:53 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Im going to keep some of their babies to make in to more pairs and Im going to keep the first white one and breed it to a 100% het and do those pairs sound good 1male 100% het for leucistic and 1 female 66% het for leucistic for the first pair and for the second pair 1 male 100% het for mosaic and then 1 female 66$ het for leucistic unrelated to the first one and all of them be unrelated to each other also how many list should i get on i think im on 2 or 3 list already but im not sure and I can't wait to start helping the leucistic line grow a little more so i can help more and more people get them and populate more people with these great glider I can't wait untill it's my ture to get these little ones also should I get all of them from different people also shoul i have the two females twins or unrelated because i want them to be unrelated but it might be hare to find so could some one tell me soon please!! thank you guys for helping me please tell me all that you know i like this!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#31776 - 12/18/04 11:14 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kris,
Man, I can't digest your text.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I'm going to try again.
You should break it up into sentences or just a thought per line, you might get more help that way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Ok, for your first pair, if you have the money, and if they are available, I'd get two 100% hets. Research your lineage and find out if they are far enough in relation to be a good match. Almost all leucistics that I know of are pretty close, so you will have to do your homework. Some people have been breeding normals to their leucistic gliders to introduce more genetic variety and to create a healthier gene pool. I wouldn't worry about getting on as many lists as you can, I'd worry about how you're going to pay for the glider. If you've got the money at the right time and if you are a breeder that people feel that they can trust with these special gliders, then you will more than likely find your gliders.

With all due respect, I think that you may be getting ahead of yourself. You just got a trio of gliders and you are pretty new to the glider community and to gliders altogether. My suggestion is that you learn as much as you can about the gliders that you have and wait until you have a few successful breedings under your belt before you approach leucistic breeding. We all had to start somewhere and I'm not trying to talk down to you. For all you know, breeding gliders may not even be something that you will enjoy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#31777 - 12/18/04 11:32 PM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I studied Glider for about two years before I got my trio but one for sure has babies ip and the other does but im 50 50 on that!


But I have been studing leucistic and mosaics for about 1 year - 1 1/2 years But I know I want to do this because I dont really want to do any thing at all then be with my glider and play with them and watch them!!

But what I'm tring to say is i think im ready to get leucistics but Im going to have to wait for about 6 months to about 2 years to get them so I know I will have the time to think about getting them and all but I'm thinking i want to get them in about 6 months but I know that will not probally happen!

Also Im going to but what I can with the money I can spend but I will have to spend well over $4000 for just those two pairs and I know that and I am willing to do that and all but I know what I want to do but im thinking that i might want to wait a few months to get them but I know I want them no matter what because They are just so cute!

Is this way better for you sorry about writing weird! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#31778 - 12/19/04 01:38 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


thank you for the information Judie and big ern!
My next question would concern inbreeding, considering the breeder Priscilla got her mosaics from were created my inbreding double hets, what would happen if you inbred normal hets? Anything? would it increase the chances of getting leucistic at all, in your opinion (this question is for anyone)

I'm not looking into breeding colored variations like this, I don't know why I'm so interested. Guess it's just a fascinating subject! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#31779 - 12/19/04 02:00 AM Re: Possible Leucistic Het Breeding ?s Please HELP [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Hey....don't worry....I am the worlds worse at making mistakes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Just wondering?? Is it better to be the worlds worst at making mistakes or should you strive to be the worlds best at making mistakes?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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OKLAHOMA 344116
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 342083
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