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#32041 - 12/19/04 06:50 PM As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible??
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi everyone!

I dont have a Sugar Glider of my own yet, but I am thinking about getting two lovely females, but first im doing some researching...
Now I'm looking at as many diets as I can find, and I feel that ive covered most of them since theyre getting repetitive.

So ive learnt that the calcium:phosphorous ratio is very important because too much phosphorous can take calcium from the bones. Though however its important to have both calcium and phosphorous to support bone growth.
Now, when it comes to protien, protien some people say should cover 50% of their diet.
If the main source I feed my Glider is bugs, (mealworms, crickets, waxworms ect.) is that enough?
I want to stay as close as there nature diet as much as possible. Like not feeding them any cooked foods for instance..
Though I don't feel comfortable feeding them pinky mice or that sort of thing..
Would they eat green leafy vegetables, sprouts, hemp seeds, or anything like that?
That would be cool.
If you can tell me of any alternative protien sources, I would be happy.


Thank you!

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#32042 - 12/19/04 07:13 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Hi there and welcome to GC! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> It is good to see that you are researching before you get your suggies.

diets for these lil ones can be a little tricky to say the least. Let me start off by saying it is near impossible to give them a diet that is like the one they eat in the wild mainly due to the fact that there are many things they eat in australia that we do not nor are able to get ourselves.

With that in mind please go to the Diet Page and read up on all the different proven diets that are listed. Choose one that you will feel comfortable and content feeding and one that your gliders will eat and stick to it. Than you will not have to worry.
Hope this helps! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#32043 - 12/19/04 07:28 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Fundamentally, staying as close to their natural diet as possible sounds good. But you have to realize that there are a few concessions that you will have to make when feeding a captive glider. The subject of mimicking their natural diet is a long debated subject and there are a variety of opinions. I for one am all for using aspects of their natural diet i.e. pollen, acacia gum, and insects, but I think that greater success can be found by also implementing things available here, i.e. yogurt, different fruits, some honey, oats, vitamins.

You might be able to just feed insects as a protien source, but honestly, they do fine with chicken (and of course insects as a side item) as a protein source from what I've seen, and insects can get expensive. Another problem is that there is no diet that has worked out the proper ratios to accomodate insects as the sole source of protein. If you can work it out, then more power to you, and I'd be interested to see your findings, but you might have to do some research and some nutritional number crunching before you arrive at a proper diet.

I would advise for the time being to use a proven diet so that you can be sure that they are getting enough nutrition while you work on a diet of your own.

If you are looking for a diet that implements items available in the wild then I would suggest the petglider exotic diet as it uses both Acacia Gum and Bee Pollen(two things gliders eat in the wild) But....it also uses cooked chicken...

My gliders personally aren't into leafy vegetables or sprouts. They like juicy and sweet things. Most common diets already have a pretty good amount of Beta Carotene anyways, but even still some people's gliders like that stuff.

Hemp seeds might not be good since the shells are pretty hard and might get caught in their throat/teeth, although hemp seeds are a great source of nutrition. Maybe you could find them shelled? But, one main reason why I wouldn't use them is that they are probably much too fatty for gliders.

Other than insects and chicken(both meat and babyfood) people don't use much else for protein. Some feed steak or other lean poultry meats. The key is to avoid fatty sources of protein and stick with things that are both lean and easily digestable/comsumable. I would advise cooking your meats, as there is no telling what kind of harmful bacteria, etc. might be in the meat. It's just not a risk I'd suggest taking.

I'd also advise against feeding too many crickets or waxworms as crickets can contain aflatoxins which build up over time and can be very unhealthy. Waxies are just too fatty(and expensive), so you can feed them but do it sparingly because your gliders will get chubby real quick from them. Most people also recommed staying away from soy based protein sources. According to some, they pose a risk for aflatoxins, but that's a whole other debate that has been had many times on this forum and I'm sure a search on the topic will yield plenty of info so you can arrive to a decision on your own <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#32044 - 12/19/04 07:53 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Big Ern!

Thanks for the detailed advice.
Im still searching for some more sources, I honestly don't know to much about the nutrition in bugs.
I agree that its not wise to feed any animal raw meat, not unless its fresh and organic, not frozen,
Ive heard that freezing food kills over 30% enzymes, and cooking it kills the rest,
so thats why I would want to feed my Glider a protien that is living and that the body can assimilate at a cellular level that can be used to build healthy new cells.

I guess thats why its so important for them to eat a well balanced variety of fresh, fruits and vegetables, so they can get a wide spectrum of vitamins, minerals, and protien.

I really hope my Gliders will eat all that!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

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#32045 - 12/19/04 09:44 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know, I never really gave the raw food diet any thought regarding gliders. It is actually something very much worth looking into. I do freeze my food and cook the chicken, although I do have 20 and not freezing food is tough! Otherwise I'd be making double batches(60oz) of food every 4 days. I would imagine that there could be some way to feed a fresh/raw balanced diet that used insects only for protein. It might get expensive though, unless one were to produce their own insects.

I've often thought about how eating cooked poultry can't be a very optimal source of protein considering what they typically rely on in the wild for protein(insects, pollen, occasional vertebrates) The insides of an insect are a liquidy gooey sort of protein shake that I'd imagine would be a lot easier on the digestive system to digest and a lot more efficient source of protein when compare to cooked meat. I often see concerns expressed for "excess" protein causing liver damage in gliders, could this be why? Could it not be the amount of protein, but the source? It probably takes a lot more effort from the liver to digest meat than it would insect haemolymph(guts). An animal that is used to more efficient protein sources may not be optimized to efficiently use cooked meat...? Either way, I do blend my chicken into oblivion, so it is a bit easier to break down, but I've been finding so many spit ups lately that I wonder how much actual protein they are consuming....

We'll see Mr WildHirniak, I'll do some figuring if I get some time and see how possible it is and if there would be any advantage to feeding a more insect based more raw diet.
Grubco.com is a great site to look at for insect nutritional info..... Just how many insects it will take to equal the amount of chicken I feed will be interesting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#32046 - 12/19/04 10:33 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hum... Protien. I've got some opinions on that topic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I personally only use eggs as a protein source. Eggs have a high level of usable protein than any meat. Also, the protein in eggs is easier to digest... My gliders get about half of a hard boiled egg every night.

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#32047 - 12/19/04 11:19 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know, I totally spaced out on eggs as a source of protein, definitely a good one <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#32048 - 12/19/04 11:21 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Interesting.
I would like to add that in the wild (my understanding anyway) gliders eat small rodents, (mice), baby birds, bird eggs, insects and possibly small lizzards.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#32049 - 12/19/04 11:28 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just curious, where did you get that info from?
Not to be argumentative, but from my reading, I have only read of them very occasionally eating vertebrates(possibly their eggs too), but not enough to figure even moderately in their wild diet statistics. I'm not saying you're wrong, because by all means you could have read something that I need to check out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />


Edited by big ern! (12/19/04 11:29 PM)

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#32050 - 12/20/04 04:34 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Leyna is correct. Eggs are the best source of 'usable protein'. Only 65 to 80 per cent of the protein from most other sources is used by the animal consuming it.

Forget about the so called natural diet. First place no one knows what a sugar gliders natural diet is. Second place if you did figure out what it was you do not have the fresh food items available. And to top all this off it is seasonal and would vary through out the year. By picking a few items that you have heard of or think that gliders eat in the wild and including them in your gliders diet you could be doing more harm than good. For instance bee pollen. Bee pollen is a seasonal item and if you will do a little research and see how it is gathered you will find that the danger of contamination is very high. And all bee pollen is not the same. It depends on what flowers are in season and what region it is gathered in.

Your best bet is to pick one of the 'older' tried and true sugar glider diets and stay with it. Most of the sick gliders we take in come from people who were feeding their gliders some unproven diet that their breeder or vet told them to feed. Gliders, like most other animals can live on very unhealthy diets for a while. But in time health issues will develope if you do not stick with one of the proven captive glider diets.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#32051 - 12/20/04 05:49 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
First place no one knows what a sugar gliders natural diet is.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Why would you say that? People have done field studies and have charted the feeding habits and activities of wild gliders. We know to a tee what they eat in the wild. Insects, pollen, Eucalyptus Sap, and Acacia Gum with occasional vertebrates. Researchers have gone so far as to analyze their fecal matter to determine what species of pollen were present, how well it was digested, the type of insects consumed and the nitrogen content of the feces was calculated to ascertain the minimum nitrogen requirements for a glider to sustain itself.....Once again, you are mistaking peoples desire to maintain a diet "as close to the natural diet as possible" for a desire to DUPLICATE the natural diet. There is a large difference.

You are correct that the source of pollen is crucial and that it poses a viable risk for contamination, but so does just about everything else eaten if one does not make educated and informed decisions.

It would no doubt be wise as was recommended to use an established diet. What that is is left up to personal interpretation.

Change and progress are inevitable, though new ideas may seem "dangerous" they often pave the road to positive innovations. I personally have had horrible results with what most consider an 'older' "tried and true diet", so inorder to prevent my gliders from dying or cannibalizing their joeys, I was forced to make a decision, and that involved using another diet with which I have found great success, and that is a diet that I went out on a limb with and created myself by researching what worked and taking what does and going from there. Because I have not done extensive enough testing(many years) with MY diet with my own gliders, I barely ever suggest that anyone use it because I don't feel comfortable bearing that responsibilty yet. The same goes with any diet, make a decision about what to feed and only you bear the responsiblity for the outcome. But I will say that I have had great results for the past year with many healthy joeys and the statistics that I have kept on my gliders bear positive figures when compared to other "proven" diets. I guess this goes to say that straying from the established path does not always yield negative consequences though I still strongly suggest that most stick with the established path unless they have the time resources and knowledge to do things correctly and the patience and willingness to accept whatever the outcome may be. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#32052 - 12/20/04 06:43 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
No we do not know to a 'tee' what a wild gliders diet is! True, there have been many isolated studies but to do a thorough study the daily diet would have to be analyzied for the quantities of various minerals, vitamins, protein, carbohydrates, etc. And would have to be charted during all seasons for several years and cover the various regions that sugar gliders habitat. We can't even get a complete and comprenhisive study of captive glider diets so why would you in your wildest dreams think that the wild gliders diet has been pinpointed to a "tee".

Although you may have had a bad experience with some of the older tried and true captive glider diets, hundreds of gliders have thrived on them and still do.

As I mentioned earlier, gliders can survive and seem to be healthy on any number of diets. But the long range effects can be disasterous. As we take in gliders with health issues, we are starting to see some repercussions from one of the more recent unproven diets that suddenly gained popularity. Although it is impossible to prove the diet caused the death of the gliders, when they come from a certain breeder and are being fed the diet that breeder recommends, a light comes on.

I am not foolish enough to think that the ultimate glider diet has been developed and am all for controlled research. But it is foolish to experiment with food items simply because they are native to the same continent that gliders come from.

Back to the protein, more needs to be learned about the essential amino acid chain required in a sugar gliders protein source. One might say that protein is protein but it is not that simple. There are a lot of other things involved.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#32053 - 12/20/04 07:13 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't think any research has been done as to what the gliders in Indonesia and New Guinea eat, and this is where domestic gliders come from. I'm sure their diet is similar to the gliders in Australia, but there are many different species of flora and fauna between the countries. Also, the seasons where our gliders come from are not temperature-wise, they are determined by the rain.

With Australian gliders looking so big and hefty, I have no doubt that the diets must be substantially different.

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#32054 - 12/20/04 07:20 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


But.... your statement that we do not even know what a wild gliders diet is still stands as incorrect. Sure they haven't broken it down into actual mineral content, etc...So I may be incorrect by your definition that we know what they eat to a "tee", because to a tee with you must mean chemical breakdowns, etc... Bottom line, we know what they eat, it is not the huge mystery or complex saga that it is being made out to be. We know exactly what they eat to survive. I'm sure not every glider, like every human, is the same. Sure it may vary from region to region(they are very resourceful animals), some gliders may even have individual preferences if you want to get down to the nitty gritty, so should that be included in the argument that we don't know what they eat? Should that be cause not to generalize? Essentially the needs of all gliders are going to be very similar, and I'm sure you feed all of your gliders the same food. So, we generalize and make something that will appeal to most gliders and keep them healthy.

ALso I understand that most proven diets keep many gliders healthy, that is why I am not bashing those diets, I am simply stating that some people are forced to consider other avenues and those don't always lead to disaster. If I remember correctly up until some time ago you didn't even consider feeding BML?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Back to the protein, more needs to be learned about the essential amino acid chain required in a sugar gliders protein source. One might say that protein is protein but it is not that simple. There are a lot of other things involved.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Charlie, not to be rude, but you argued against me when it came to feeding gliders insects and stated that chicken was just fine as a protein source, which it is, but you scoffed at the idea that there could be something better and more efficient. I don't believe that it should be the sole source of protein in a gliders diet, according to your arguments from some time ago, you do/did.

In order to figure this protein thing out, one would need to look at what gliders eat primarily for protein.....pollen, which contains a very wide variety of amino acids(although there are obviously differences according to source) and insects. Both are easily digestible and contain a specific and broad amino acid complex which is quite far from that of cooked poultry.... Gliders must have a need for a wider variety of amino acids and for a protein source that is more digestible.

That is all I have to say on the topic...... If anyone wants to discuss the topic any further with me then do so via pm. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#32055 - 12/21/04 02:50 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
LOL Charlie needs to stop by Pockets home for a visit & some Native <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> facts!
Yes their native diets are known & have been published in several publications & yes I have these publications & yes even some mineral contents
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#32056 - 12/21/04 06:01 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Pockets, with these volums of research books can you tell me how many grams of protein should be in a gliders diet daily and what the amino acid chain requirements are for the protein? How much calcium should I include in my gliders diet and since there are not many oyster shells in the forests of Australia, where should we get this calcium?
And what about the recent concern about the amount of iron in a gliders diet? And there has always been a concern about the use of Vit D3 in the captive gliders diet. Are you saying you have books with all these answers? You been holding out on us! With all this information available there is no need for a sugar glider diet study. Just compile the perfect diet from the research that has already been done. I think not!
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#32057 - 12/21/04 09:15 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
In the wild I can get you pretty darn close - they have been doing fecal studies for years & a host of other field studies!
diets in captivity isnt really such a popular topic here & most don't believe the research anyways - I do have some pretty impressive publications - I think you'd as well as many humans here would be quite surprised to see what information is actually out there!

Most have their own ideas on diet, etc & don't want to learn
I have a few veterinarians who keep in touch with me to learn! LOL!
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#32058 - 12/21/04 09:34 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Pockets, would you be willing to start a new thread about diets in the wild? Maybe post initially on one area of diet in the wild and then open the discussion on what that could possibly mean for a captive diet. I love researching, but don't have access to the resources you do. And I would love to have a "learning" discussion about possible implications from some of the diet research that has been done on wild gliders.

Big Ern, I know you're not ready to introduce "Big Ern's Glider diet", but I'd like to encourage you also to open another thread to talk about the possibilities of a well thought out alternative diet. Maybe the real discussion would that if your glider won't eat a "proven" diet, how do you go about finding / designing another diet.

Maybe open these threads under "research and support" so that it is clear they are "learning" threads.

~Lynn

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#32059 - 12/21/04 10:35 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Hi
That would be interesting to a few - I'm sure.
I was asked by Kevin "ISGA" to write for the Critter's magazine but instead handed it over to our wonderful Bourbon! Didn't want to tackle that dreaded diet issue! (lol)

I know that Kathy Delaney was referred to as just a monkey vet when I first mentioned her <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> research a few years ago here on Glider Central & have seen that change - Thank goodness!

I have spoken with Ellen Dierenfeld a few years back & she didn't like the amount of vitamin D3 many where providing their gliders - my own Exotic vets advised against it also. Ellen D. also didn't see a big issue with feeding Fancy Feast cat foot. My how info changes!

If you talk with Ellen D & do a bit of research she will tell you as many worldwide animal nutritionists will, stay as close to an animals native diet as possible - I bet the diet product/products she has been working on will be proof of that comment.

I will post a bit after the Holidays as I have an out of state friend in route to Texas for a visit - Happy Holidays to all
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#32060 - 12/21/04 11:53 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Big Ern, I know you're not ready to introduce "Big Ern's Glider diet", but I'd like to encourage you also to open another thread to talk about the possibilities of a well thought out alternative diet. Maybe the real discussion would that if your glider won't eat a "proven" diet, how do you go about finding / designing another diet.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Lynn,
I appreciate the positive encouragement, but that would be like opening Pandora's box. My diet keeps my gliders happy, and probably for quite some time, that's all it will do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Pockets thanks for bringing some fresh air to the thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> As always, I love to hear your input <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#32061 - 12/21/04 03:52 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I think it would be a great idea to open a thread on sugar gliders diets in the wild. Also on any crediable new diet studies for captive gliders here in the USA. Pockets mentioned some vets and their opinions on glider diets but these people have just that 'opinions'. I don't care if they have a string of credentials as long as your arm if they can't prove the statements they make they are still just theories. And believe me, if you start polling vets on the proper diet for sugar gliders you are going to get a very wide range of opinions. In all the years I have been dealing with sugar gliders I have discussed the diet issue with several vets. and have never gotten two that gave me the same recomendations. If you search long enough for someone to agree with you sooner or later you will probably find them. Taking statements out of context like the one about cat food is very deceptive and can give a lot of people the wrong idea. As far as Pockets statement about one of the vets. being considered just a monkey vet., a few articles written by someone on a little known subject does not make them an authority. Just means they have pasted their name in a lot of places so that it is recognized. Read the articles, expecially the statements about sugar glider self mutilation and then ask yourself if everything this person publishes is actually fact.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#32062 - 12/22/04 06:10 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here is a great link about Glider diets from Glider University! http://www.glideruniversity.org/main/content/view/10//

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#32063 - 12/23/04 05:02 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
One would have to be rather naive not to recognize the article as a promotional and advertisment program for a relatively new and unproven product. If you pretend to be an authority on a subject and promote it widely there will be people who will buy into it. Look at the medicines that were recently pulled off the market. Saturation of the Net with a product does not mean it is a good product. Look at the background and experience of the developers and then analyze the product. It is not a good idea to give gliders a supliment that you do not at least know the analysis of. This holds true for any comercial glider product.

RECIPE FOR DISASTER!
Anyone can mix a little corn meal, soy meal, sugar, and calcium. Buy a bottle of vitamins and grind them up and add to the mix. Then pick a couple of items produced in Australia to make a stronger impression. Dream up a catchy name and design a fancy label. Saturate the internet with advertisements and statements about what a great new sugar glider suppliment you have and you will find buyers. And because it is easy and simple you will have people who think it is the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel. The gliders will not die instantly from using your product so who is to say it is not a valid suppliment?

Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#32064 - 12/23/04 01:09 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm sure Jessica Leigh had no idea of your personal issues with Glider University. She was just trying to do people a favor by posting the link.

What proof do you have that the supplement which you question is something that is not nutritionally appropriate?
If I recall correctly the actual composition of that supplement is not public information and I doubt that you would be one of the few priveleged to see the breakdown....
What factual basis do you have to support your theory that gliders will come to harm at some point in their lives for consuming this supplement Charlie? All you seem to have is skepticism and reluctance to open your mind to new ideas...
It's easy for anyone to tell everyone what's wrong about everything....if you've got all the answers, then why don't you tell us exactly what we should be feeding our gliders?

You yourself so frequently state that we don't know what the vitamin and mineral requirements of a sugar glider are! How can you tell us that in this instance you are educated enough on the subject to state that a vitamin and mineral supplement is not sufficient?!

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#32065 - 12/24/04 05:35 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Ern, surely you are not foolish enough to give your gliders a vitamin suppliment that does not even list the ingredients.

And can you explain to me how you can have a glider diet that is 50% protein since there is no food that even approachs 50% protein.

We deal with gliders with health issues daily. Since Mary is on the Glider Health call list people call constantly about glider health issues. When you start getting calls from people with gliders that have died and question them about diets and suppliments you start to get a feel for certain things.

And no, my mind is not closed to new diet ideas. My mind is closed to a bunch of tom follery ideas that have no basis. And there is a lot of bad information on glider diets that I would like to see corrected.

As far as my education with gliders. It comes from taking in gliders with health issues for 10 years and spending thousands of dollars with vets trying to find solutions. Sorry Ed, but I didn't just fall off of a turnip truck. Any thing I post on glider diets or health come from years of hands on experience and not from some johnny come lately ideas posted on the Net.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#32066 - 12/24/04 08:47 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Charlie could you please elaborate on the protein sources you feed your gliders since you seem to know exactly what not to give them. Eggs aren't exactly a good choice to feed every night because of high fat content. From what I've read one hard-boiled egg yolk a week is enough. It seems to me that all you have to offer is criticism and no actual facts.

Wild Hirniak- I try to feed my glider's a variety of different protein sources. I use the Suncoast diet plan and try to offer chicken, mealies, crickets, turkey baby food, yogurt and egg once a week. I feel that with a variety they will benefit more by getting different kinds of proteins.
travis

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#32067 - 12/24/04 09:31 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Ern, surely you are not foolish enough to give your gliders a vitamin suppliment that does not even list the ingredients.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> No, I am not foolish enough to give a diet supplement that does not list the ingredients, however, I am also not foolish enough to make claims against a supplement when I have no FACTUAL basis. That is the issue which I am asking you to address!

You emphasize the need for facts and research, yet you so frequently make such bold statements with only your opinion to back them...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
And can you explain to me how you can have a glider diet that is 50% protein since there is no food that even approachs 50% protein.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> What are you talking about?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
And no, my mind is not closed to new diet ideas. My mind is closed to a bunch of tom follery ideas that have no basis. And there is a lot of bad information on glider diets that I would like to see corrected.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I feel the same way, that's why I'm tired of the bold claims that you make. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#32068 - 12/24/04 11:11 AM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow. I had no idea forums in a glider site would be so heated. Debating is good, but NOW, now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />... let's not disregard people's feelings while debating. I found in my short time here that people can be very condescending in tone. You'd think that people would be as tender and meek as the gliders they own. We are all here to learn about these animals together.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" />

And also, as I've mentioned in a previous post, the knowledge of the general husbandry of these newly domesticated creatures is continually changing and growing, and there's still a lot to fully understand about them, biologically, psychologically, behaviourally, etc. That's why I always have my eye open to new ideas for further researching. I remember back in the day when it was recommended that sugar gliders have a separate bowl for dry parrot food and trail mix, loaded with legumes and fatty nuts!

I'm just stipulating that if you're going to speak from an authoritative stand point, not only do you risk looking foolish when facts opposite of those you were adhering to are proven true amidst a body of knowledge that is constantly modifying, but you also look bad when harsh critisms are made on fellow glider-keepers proposing new ideas. I know most speak from an emotional stand-point as well, due to personal experiences with suffering gliders, but it would make things a lot simpler if input was posted with respect for people's feelings. These forums are here to promote education, not to compete for who knows the most about sugar gliders. People will always have their own opinions and are entitled to sharing them but not to condemning others for theirs.

That's what I have to say about that.

Mikey

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#32069 - 12/26/04 06:22 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Here are some facts for you to mull over:
From the USDA food analysis. Chicken breast (raw) 23.1% protein. Egg hard boiled 12.53% protein.

From Grubco. Crickets 21.32% protein. Meal worms 20.27% protein.

Looking at these figures most people would automatically think that the egg is the poorest source of protein. This is not true. You have to look at other things involved in the food you choose. Actually the egg is the best choice for protein because of the amino acids (usable protein). Incidentally, meal worms are 20.27% fat. Not a very good choice.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me how to get 50% protein in a gliders diet. If all you feed them is the protein source about the highest you can expect to achieve is around 35%. When you add fruits and vegetables to the diet you are going to end up with around 15% protein if you are lucky. If you use the protein sources I mentioned above you are going to have a diet that is around 8 to 10 per cent actual protein. But then you need to evaluate how much of the protein is usable protein to really see how much protein your glider is getting.

Just a thought. Can you see a glider going around in the wild trying to gather enough pollen to make a meal. They may injest some pollen while getting nectar from flowers or eating the petals but I seriously doubt they would ever be able to gather enough pollen to make it worth their while.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#32070 - 12/26/04 09:43 PM Re: As Close As Their Natural Diet Possible?? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Very valid post Charlie! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

I think there may be a confusion of terms, though. I've studied Zoology and Nutrition in University and I think a better word to use than "amino acid" when referring to the eggs is "absorbable protein" (you've used also 'usable protein'). Let's not use terms loosely here, lest we all get confused.

Terminology so we're all on the same track: there exist twenty different amino acids. Proteins are made up of one or more linear polymer chains of amino acids connected by peptide linkages (the result of a condensation reaction when one amino acid reacts with the amino group of another amino acid).

So, what I want to know is, Charlie, how do you know that indeed eggs contain the highest amount of absorbable protein than the other food sources for gliders (as I assumed you didn't know the answer when you were asking Pockets earlier if she knew the amino acid requirements required for gliders)? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Let's look at the term 'absorbable' and how one food source is more "absorbable in protein" than another.

Each species has its different amino acid requirements (i.e. specific amino acids that are essential to the animal's survival that must be extracted from diet). For humans, there are 8 essential amino acid requirements which must be extracted from our diet; they are isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine. In our case, egg whites (and chicken/turkey breast) indeed contain the highest percentage of absorbable protein because egg whites are abundant in these amino acids... but remember this is for human beings! So, in regards to this topic on absorbable protein, it's really dependent on the species.

Now, my question again is, Charlie, how are you familiar with the specific essential amino acids of sugar gliders to determine that eggs are the best source of protein and that the other sources contain less absorbable protein (i.e. lacking in one or more of the sugar glider's essential amino acids)? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

You even made this statement earlier which confused me:

"Eggs are the best source of 'usable protein'. Only 65 to 80 per cent of the protein from most other sources is used by the animal consuming it..."

What does that mean? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> That statement is contractory, if not fallacious.

Also, in regards to the mealworms being both 20.27% protein and also being 20.27% fat... Are you sure about that stat? Fats (with 2 significant molecular components being fatty acids and glycerol) and proteins (polymers of amino acids) are two different things. Again, are you certian that mealworms (or any of the listed protein sources) contain less of the essential amino acids specific to gliders than eggs?

Just something additional to think about...

Also, I am in agreeance with some of the others including Pockets and Big Ern when they say that the sugar glider's diet is pretty much hammered out, and that we have a pretty good idea of most of the nutritional requirements of gliders based on the combined efforts of research, experiments, and the many years of experience from glider owners and zoos. Much of this ofcourse would be based on a comparison of the lifespans, general health, and production of healthy offspring between captive gliders and those studied in the wild. More and more captive gliders are reaching the full 15 years, for instance, sustained on the conventional proven diets (and note that I've said PROVEN diets).

I think now it's become a matter of who can determine the diet that is "more perfect" than the several perfect diets out there. Could you come up with the most perfect and simple human diet? Could you determine a set list of food items to blend in a blender and be for certain that you've made the perfect human staple diet to be fed day in and day out along with a rotation of fresh "side foods"? Hypothetically, I'm sure we could come up with an infinite number of versions of that human food item list to blend that would all be equally conducive to a healthy human. Although, humans may have a more diverse diet than gliders, the principle still apllies to these omnivorous marsupials. In my opinion, each diet may have it's pros and cons, and may vary in the amounts of certain nutrients/vitamins, but the nutritional differences between the truly proven diets (i.e. BML diet, Darcy's diet, etc.) is insignificant in the end, because all the proven diets have proven to lead to all-around healthy gliders. So what if a person decides to feed egg whites instead of chicken breast & mealworms for protein? The fact is, all contain a significant amount of protein that can be integrated in the diet (even by estimation e.g. a few mealworms a day) for the animals to survive healthily enough to live their full lives, produce healthy offspring, and generally remain happy, proven over the years from successful glider domestication. It's really a matter of preference, as opposed to "CHOOSE THE RIGHT ONE OR YOUR GLIDER WILL DIE SOON!". Everyone's opinion will vary. For protein, I choose both egg (in my BML mixture) and mealworms/crickets. The substance "chitin" found in the exoskeleton of insects (including mealworms and crickets) is a polysaccaride which is broken down into simple sugars and = energy! Plus, it's great for your glider's teeth and they're relished like a happy child eating liquorice! Whatever the case, variety is the key to a healthy animal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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