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#32181 - 12/23/04 02:00 PM Precious died with joey IP - Why???
Anonymous
Unregistered


Two nights ago, I went to feed Precious & Smeagol & Precious was dead in her pouch. Her joey was still alive inside her but died shortly after. She was fine just hours before, what could have happened? Her nose was burgundy, her ears were down & her eyes were open. The joey was moving in her pouch. I just don't understand. Canadian customs wouldn't let us bring her body over the border, so we had to leave her under a tree in Montana. I'm at a loss, what could have killed her so quickly that would have left the joey alive inside her pouch? Smeagol was in the same pouch with her and is fine. Nothing out of the ordinary at all. I just arrived at my mother-in-law's late last night & will be trying to contact a vet today, but if anybody can help me figure this out, it would be greatly appreciated. I don't know what happened to my Precious & it's killing me.

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#32182 - 12/23/04 02:03 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh Im so so sorry. My heart is broken for you. I will think of you and Smeagol and I offer my prayers. I wish I could say something to help you. How old was she? Was behavior and such normal? I'm just so sorry.

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#32183 - 12/23/04 02:06 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


She was a year old & was acting perfectly normal. She died within a couple hours with no signs of illness. I didn't see her for about 2 hours as I thought she was just sleeping contently in her pouch, but when I went to feed her, she was gone.

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#32184 - 12/23/04 02:07 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
OH, GINA!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> I am SO sorry! Unfortunately, the only way to conclusively determine cause of death is a necropsy, which can't be done now. Give the vet as much info as possible, any detail, even if you think it trivial. Without a post-mortem, though, best guess is probably all we can hope for. I know this isn't much help, and I wish I could be of more assistance. You have my number if you need to talk. Sending lots and lots of e-hugs!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#32185 - 12/23/04 02:09 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Also-was her nose dark-colored before she died? That could be a clue (or not). Riker's turned really dark with this infection of his. Just taking a stab in the dark, here.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#32186 - 12/23/04 02:12 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


No, it wasn't dark before. I was wondering. Louis (my dog) has an ear infection, is there any way bacteria could have been transferred to her & since she's so small - it just killed her? I'm just grasping at straws here.

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#32187 - 12/23/04 02:14 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Are you going to take Smeagol to get checked? I remember the recent post on giardia and how hard to detect it is. And if its that hard to detect think that could have been the prob? Maybe getting Smeagol checked will give you some answers, though it might also be of no help. I would get him thoroughly checked to make sure he is ok too.
Please keep us updated. Lots of hugs and thoughts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

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#32188 - 12/23/04 02:22 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I think that would depend on the type of bacteria, and if she was able to come into direct contact with it-something to discuss with the vet. Bacteria typically isn't airborne in that case (from the ear)-usually only if projected, say during sneezing/coughing from related areas. There could have been any number of problems, from an overload on her system by the joey which could have affected heart or circulatory systems, to infection, to a growth or tumor you couldn't see, or something else. Barring a fight, some sort of accidental exposure to a toxin, I don't know where to look for a cause. I would recommend havine Smeagol checked asap to be safe, in case it is something spreadable. In addition to float and smear on fecals, as for (I think) a Direct smear? Judie, is that right? It's a little different from the routine fecals. And urine also. I know this may be difficult in canada, but without a clear cause, you don't want to take a chance with the rest of your babies. I'd put smeagol in a clean pouch and thouroughly wash the cage/toys just in case, as well.

I can't say how sorry I am. She will be waiting for you at the bridge.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#32189 - 12/23/04 02:55 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My mother-in-law found a vet, but she's on maternity leave. I'm going to keep looking. If I can't find anybody, I may have to go to a dog/cat vet & have them contact a glider vet in the states for instructions????

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#32190 - 12/23/04 02:56 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
aawww Gina!! I am soooo sorry. My heart goes out to you!!! My prayers to you, Smeagol and the rest of your family.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#32191 - 12/23/04 03:07 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Aw, I'm so sorry for your loss!

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#32192 - 12/23/04 03:19 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
There are 6 vets listed in the database for Canada here on GC. 3 in the BC area, and 3 in the Ontario area. Which is closest to you? (Regardless, I'm sure Dr. Orr would consult-he's seen them before.)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#32193 - 12/23/04 03:23 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
What the heck, here is everything listed:

Anderson Animal Hospital
8465 Granville St. Vancouver, B.C. 604-263-6767
http://sugarglider.net/links/noinfo.php
(Added: Sun Feb 15 2004 Hits: 15 Rating: 0.00 Votes: 0) Rate It Review It

Dr. Linda Kaplan, Tri-Lake Animal Hospital
10564 Powley Court Winfield, British Columbia 250-766-3236
http://sugarglider.net/links/noinfo.php
(Added: Thu Jan 30 2003 Hits: 33 Rating: 0.00 Votes: 0) Rate It Review It

Dr. Sharon Prus
903-7380 King George HWY Surrey, British Columbia 604-597-7387
http://sugarglider.net/links/noinfo.php
(Added: Thu Jan 30 2003 Hits: 31 Rating: 6.33 Votes: 3) Rate It Review It

Beardall Animal Hospital
541 Palace Rd. Kingston, Ontario 613-544-6336
http://sugarglider.net/links/noinfo.php
(Added: Fri Jan 31 2003 Hits: 43 Rating: 0.00 Votes: 0) Rate It Review It

The links Road Animal & Bird Clinic
41 The links Road North York, Ontario 416-223-1165
http://sugarglider.net/links/noinfo.php
(Added: Fri Jan 31 2003 Hits: 51 Rating: 10.00 Votes: 2) Rate It Review It

Thorold Veterinary Hospital
2-B Sullivan Ave Thorold, (ON) Canada L2V 2X9 Tel : 905-227-7644 Emergency : 905-227-7644 Fax : 905-227-8820 Animals Treated Cats Dogs Exotics Wildlife
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#32194 - 12/23/04 04:21 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Actually she is somewhere inbetween so those are too far. I gave Gina a vets number last month to use while at her mother-in-laws, but I think thats the one on leave. This is heart breaking, I cant imagine how hard it was for you to have to leave her behind. Try to enjoy the rest of your trip as best you can.

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#32195 - 12/23/04 06:00 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: lillysmomma]
Anonymous
Unregistered


None of those vets are even in the same province. I was able to reach one of the vets that treats gliders today. Apparently, there are only 9 vets in Alberta that treat gliders and 7 of them are on maternity leave right now! I couldn't speak to the vet directly, but was getting relay from a vet tech in her office. She said there's really no way to even guess at what killed my Precious and that since Smeagol is showing no signs of illness and has no changes in behavior, eating/drinking habits, or stool - there's no need to bring him in. She said to clean everything & keep close watch of him. If there are any changes, she said to bring him in right away. She also said that when I bring them in for their return health certs, we can do direct fecals if it would make me feel better about the trip home. I just feel like I have no closure. All of a sudden she's gone, I keep expecting to see her & then I remember what she looked like laying there lifeless with the baby still moving inside her. I've never felt so helpless.

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#32196 - 12/23/04 06:11 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Will Smeagol become depressed without her? How soon should he be offered a new mate? I know it seems horrible to ask this question so soon, but I don't want mental health to become an issue for him.

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#32197 - 12/23/04 06:23 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Lucy Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 7354
Loc: Lexington, KY
I'm sorry for your loss. I hope you'll fill out the death database with as much information as you have.

As you know, gliders sometimes don't show signs of illness until they are very ill. Therefore, you might not have been able to see it previously. And some illnesses are catastrophic and act quickly, and you have little time to even see the signs. And I don't think we really know what causes some of the very quick deaths in gliders, though there is some research going on now examining necropsies in these kinds of deaths.

I'm sorry you lost Precious and her joey.
_________________________


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#32198 - 12/23/04 11:03 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I filled out the survey, though I couldn't answer very many questions as she was a rescue and I wasn't able to keep her body. I spent several hours this afternoon disinfecting everything, even in my other glider's cages. I threw out all the food & bought new stuff, just in case I had a bad papaya or something. I gave everyone some glideraide tonight, just thought it wouldn't hurt. The poor things, they'll probably sleep all night. I've been waking them up all day just to make sure they're ok.

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#32199 - 12/24/04 12:02 AM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gina I am so sorry for your loss. You and your family and babies are in my prayers. I hope you have some joy through your Holiday. Take care.

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#32200 - 12/24/04 05:19 AM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Gina, for now, just give Smeagol ALOT of love, treats, and special attention to keep him distracted from his grief. He needs that more than anything. Don't worry about a new mate for a bit yet. You can actually do more for him right now. He may or may not be as active, due to depression, and he may call for her at first (barking, hissing). Dont' worry too much if he only wants his favorite foods for a bit, either-Troi went through it when we lost William, even though she still had her 3 babies with her. I had a rescue pair I can't be certain of cause of death in her case (William's mom), and know how frustrating it is. Hang in there!
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#32201 - 12/24/04 05:39 AM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gina...

I am so sorry..:( Love ya hun, pleasee let me know if I can help in any way

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#32202 - 12/24/04 05:38 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
So sorry to hear about this. My thoughts and prayers are with you right now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#32203 - 12/24/04 05:44 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Gina,
I'm sending you lots of hugs and hope you find some answers . I no it's a stretch but if you were driving with her could she have maybe gotten car sick ? Maybe she stressed out. Sorry for your loss , Ikwill keep you in my prayers.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frostyangel.gif" alt="" />

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#32204 - 12/24/04 08:00 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just barely saw this...Im SOOOOO sorry. It is so hard to lose something so precious without any warning or reason.

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#32205 - 12/25/04 06:58 AM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The burgandy nose coloration is usually symptomatic of some type of respiratory problem due to an inability to take in/use oxygen appropriately. I would, therefore, tend to suspect either pneumonia or even congestive heart failure as was the case with my Zoe a couple of months ago. If it was congestive heart failure, two possible causes for it exist:

1) a prior viral/bacterial infection which attacked the
heart muscle precipitating congestive heart failure.
Given that Precious was a rescue, you may never know
whether she had been sick prior to taking her in.

2) congenital in nature in which case there would not have
been much you could have done for Precious.

In the last two years, I have lost two female rescue gliders to congestive heart failure. In Tia's case, no symptoms presented themselves. She was out eatting and running around in her cage at 11:00 PM. 2 1/2 hours later she was gone. With Zoe a couple of months ago, there were three symptoms noted: the burgandy nose/feet discoloration; labored breathing and lowered body temperature. Despite immediate treatment (lasix to reduce fluid in her lungs, oxygen & baytril injection), Zoe died in less than 24 hours despite a brief rally. It was felt that a bout of dental abscessing (despite antibiotic treatment for it) weakened Zoe and put her into congestive heart failure crisis that she could not overcome.

If Precious had congestive heart failure, the added stress of a joey IP could have hastened the congestive heart failure. However, you cannot blame yourself for such a situation. In both Tia and Zoe's cases, they had been seen by my exotics vet for regular checkups and no signs/symptoms of congestive heart failure were noted. Even if signs or symptoms had been noted, treatment with lasix/oxygen would have only been a temporary measures as congestive heart failure ultimately results in death.

While pneumonia may have been the cause of death, I think you would have seen at least some labored breathing and lack of appetite in addition to the burgandy nose discoloration prior to Precious' passing. While only a necropsy could have given a definitive cause of death, I have a gut feeling that congestive heart failure may have very well been the cause of death.

In any case, please accept my condolences on the loss of Precious and her joey. I know how difficult it is to lose a glider let alone to lose one during the Christmas holiday but at least Precious had found a loving home with you, knew she was loved and was with you when her time came to pass over the Rainbow Bridge.

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#32206 - 12/26/04 06:37 AM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh honey! I'm so sorry! Cyber hugs and prayers to you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />

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#32207 - 12/27/04 08:58 PM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glideroo- I just now saw your post, it's been so hectic around here I haven't been on GC nearly as much as usual. Thank you so much for sharing about Tia and Zoe, the vet I spoke to didn't even bring this up as a possibility. It sounds much more plausable than intestinal tortion. I still can't believe she's gone. She was always very slow-moving & though she wasn't overweight, she carried extra weight in her upper body (like she had breasts). Did either of your girls have characteristics like these? They always seemed a little odd to me, but the vet didn't find anything wrong during her 2 wellness checks in as many months.

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#32208 - 12/28/04 11:10 AM Re: Precious died with joey IP - Why??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Monster: neither Tia nor Zoe were slow-moving or carried extra weight in their upper bodies and seemed healthy until the end with the exception of Zoe who had suffered 3 bouts of dental abscessing. The fact that Precious was slow-moving could have been a symptom of congestive heart failure (CHF) since activity levels lessen as CHF progresses. The extra weight in her upper body could have also been an indication that she was retaining fluid (another symptom of CHF). Eventually the fluid retention affects the heart/lungs rendering breathing impossible. With Tia, it only took 2 1/2 hours for the CHF to kill her (this without there being any symptoms). With Zoe, emergency vet treatment prolonged her life (and her suffering as well) for almost 24 hours. So if Precious did have CHF, it does not surprise me that her death came so quickly given the experience I went through with my two rescue females. My vet also found nothing untoward during wellness checks of Tia and Zoe & he is a well-versed exotics vet. So please don't blame yourself for what happened to Precious. If our vets found everything to be normal during wellness visits, how could we be expected to know that something was amiss with our little ones? We can be comforted by the fact that we took these sweet little ones in, gave them the best of homes and lots of love during the time they had left.

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