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#322884 - 06/24/07 11:54 AM Discussion/education post/Wounds
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
****I posted this on another board, and received no replies. Maybe this is my therapy to finally put this to rest for myself ie:reason for post.***

Lately I have been seeing more and more posts about wounds on glider's, and not necessarily from mating but other causes. Mating wounds are the most common. Cage injury's probably the next biggest cause, and then we have spider bites and those that are just unknown. Hidden illnesses? Probably.

I would like to post the story of Tira, my first glider and our experience. It has taken me a very long time to post this, and I am not posting for sympathy, but hopefully discussion and a better understanding/ and or debate. I am not convinced there isn't something else going on here we do not understand quite yet.

Tira and Misu had been together since they were joey's...going on 6yrs. I knew their habits inside and out. They never produced joey's, but they tried every month smile . I always knew when it was *that* night. The night in question was NOT a mating night. I heard not one peep from either of them that night either. (I was up until 2-3am.) I had given them playtime and treats...our routine, and didn't check on them until the following evening's dinner/playtime. This was 24hrs. later. Tira did not come out for treat time, which puzzled me, but she was a shy one alot of the time. So after about an hour I went back to check on them and see if they had eaten a little, etc., and noticed alot of the food was untouched. I opened the nest box, and found Tira with a huge wound. I didn't realize quite yet the extent of it. Remember, all this in approx. 24hrs. I immediately seperated the two, and checked on Tira. It *appeared* when I opened the nest box that Misu was *helping* clean the wound dunno.
Called the vet, and was unable to reach him that night. (long story) I put some neosporin on the wound, and waited until the next morning to get to the vet. The wound smelled very very badly. At that point she was eating, climbing around, and cleaning her wound alot. She missed Misu badly. (they were next to each other seperated) I took both glider's to the vet to be checked. Tira's wound was cleaned, and she was x-rayed. She looked great. The wound was extensive though...ranging from the side/back of her neck, under her arms, to almost her leg. She was sub'q'd also. Fecals done on both, tried for urinalysis to no avail, and a C & S done on the wound. Later found out it was loaded with bacteria. They offered to keep her overnight or I could bring her home...I brought her home.
We were to flush the wound several times a day with a saline solution, she was put on Metacam, and a pain med (forgot what). She lost her fight 2 days later.

Here are pics. These are all before pics...it honestly looked worse after the vet (the extent), but I wouldn't put Tira through anymore stress.

Key notes are:
Not a mating wound
vet HIGHLY doubted and saw NO indication of a cage injury or
insect bite.

Anyone care to offer comments as to why?
Karin





Attachments
9989-DSCN0868.JPG (109 downloads)
9990-DSCN0869.JPG (91 downloads)
9991-DSCN0870.JPG (74 downloads)
9992-DSCN0871.JPG (79 downloads)

_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#322887 - 06/24/07 12:03 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Karin]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Karin, I am not too familiar with wounds like that, But I am sorry about Tira, I hope someone will come along and share their opinions on what could have happened !

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#322902 - 06/24/07 12:38 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Awwwww.....Miss K hug2 hug2

I remember saying once it may not have been him that did it, especially considering their relationship as you just described.

I'm going to tell a story (about me, but it relates), and you can see what you think-I will draw possible correlations at the end.

March 1997. I will always remember it for losing a large piece of my right thumb, and almost my hand.

I woke up on a Sunday morning with a sore thumb. Red and hot to the touch, but nothing else. I had been embroidering a baby quilt for my sister in law for the past week (and I regularly stab myself with the needle when I hand sew). Got up and went to church that morning.

ONE HOUR later the swelling was SO bad (and confined within a digit, it had nowhere to go), and it was so painful I had tears running down my face. I also had a small purple spot in the center of the pad (opposite the nail). I went to the emergency clinic, where they opened it up to "drain", only there was nothing in there to drain. To make it worse, it was the first time for this doctor, and she was going by a book, and asking my HUSBAND if it looked right! shakehead

So they put me on antibiotics, gave me pain meds, and I was to leave it open. Okay. I didn't sleep. The next morning it was 100X worse, and BLACK TISSUE. At the time, I didn't know that was necrotic/dead tissue. We went back to the clinic, and saw a different doctor, who after one look sent us down to the University Hospital orthopedics clinic. They didn't say what they thought was wrong.

Okay, we went. 50 miles away. THEY took one look and scheduled surgery, but again, I didn't know what was going on. It was to be 3 hours to the operation to remove the "infection".

I noticed, during the pre op wait, that in addition to the red end past the last joint, and black tissue, the rest of my thumb had turned red (I was in so much pain I just wanted to die), AND that there was this odd red stripe that now reached my elbow on the underside of my arm.

I showed the Dr and asked what it was. All he said was OH MY GOD!

I was in surgery about an hour as they removed the black tissue and started IV antibiotics (Keflex). When it was done, they told me they suspected what was wrong, but wanted to wait for the culture. I was in the hospital for days, in incredible pain despite the pain meds, and a huge chunk of my thumb missing, while they pumped antibiotics into me. The wound was left open, and packed with iodine soaked gauze (I will try and find the post op pics).

The culture results came back, and the culprit was Type A strep, otherwise known as Flesh Eating Disease, or necrotizing fasciitis. It could have killed me in a few more hours. The Dr. SERIOUSLY considered taking my hand off to stop it.

WHERE DID I GET IT?
Most likely? Do you remember the embroidery I was doing? In all likelihood, as well as the most likely scenario, I had a pinhole wound in my thumb. I touched something (a doorknob, who knows?, that had this on it, likely in a public place...post office, grocery store, and that tiny hole you couldn't even see almost cost me my life. And I have a voice and language to complain with...to say "I don't feel good" "this hurts".

Now. Glider's nail tips, when they get sharp, are SHARP! Other causes of puncture are possible. But nails are EASILY sharp enough to put pinhole punctures in the skin. All they have to do is have bacteria either on the nail...or on the skin surface that ends up with the "hole"-and that bacteria has a beautifully ideal breeding ground. Combine that with a particularly nasty bug, a glider that can't say "help, it hurts" or "I don't feel good" PLUS an instinct to hide when something is wrong, and what do you think is going to happen?

That is one of my theories, based on experience, a near obsession with keeping my hands clean the last decade, dousing ANY wound with iodine, and watching what is happening to the gliders, who live in a cage that is a breeding ground except for just after cleaning.

What do you think?
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#322908 - 06/24/07 12:45 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Karin, first I'm so sorry you lost her. frown

I've not had gliders with wounds but it's something I constantly obsess about seeing all I read here. I've been reading and thinking about it for so long and wonder about the flesh eating bacteria? It's not an uncommon thing to happen to humans and since gliders "go down" quickly when ill, I have to wonder.

Since gliders are prone to getting infection easily, it makes sense it would spread fast.

I got a staph infection years ago and went from okay to a coma within 1 day. So many infections, bacteria, etc., are getting out of hand cause of the immunity to antibiotics. The bacteria is getting harder and harder to not only identify but to kill.

I fought the infection for a total of 6 years before the doctors finally "killed" it only to have it come back almost a year later. It started with a sinus infection getting into the lyphnodes (bacteria) and within 2 days I was broke out all over with oozing sores. Back in the hospital I went frown

I'm scared to death to go near a hospital now cause supposedly that is where I probably got it in the first place frown

Just a thought, I pray something is found out soon about what is causing this with gliders. Lynsie has 2 with similar circumstances. It's scary.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#322911 - 06/24/07 12:50 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: SugarBlossoms]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Wow Jen! I was writing as you were, you said it better but I really think there is something to it!

Gliders nails are FULL of bacteria! They eat, walk in pee, poo and stuff and groom!
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#322912 - 06/24/07 12:51 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
I am listening and reading your responses with an open mind and heart hug2 , thank you for your replies.

Jen...I no longer believe it was Misu, well, 85% believe.

Both of your theories make sense. Now...if we can compile these unknown's together and see if by chance there is one underlying circumstance that is similar, we might head in the right direction.

The bacteria they found....the vet used the term *loaded*. He also said it can be gotten from the air...so that's no help. He did not believe that was the underlying cause however....just that this particular bacteria can grow rampant quickly with an open would. In Lynsie's case...this bacteria was not present. ie: the horrible odor with Tira.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#322924 - 06/24/07 01:05 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Karin]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Karin, I'm going to add a couple of thoughts/ ideas out there.

I have an immune condition that does not allow my skin to stay healed/ normal. I have missing immunoglobulins in mutilple groups. Because if this I have 3 current problems with my skin that I am treating with medication. If a glider has a similar condition, it could be something along those lines. Lowered immunities (either gentically or due to housing conditions or stress) that could allow them to become "sick" with something a healthy glider could fight off. Another example, when I was 15, due to my immune issues, I got humofluous influenza. This is a flu bug that normally only babies and geriatric people get.

My other thought, and is just an idea thrown out. Dogs for a fact can sniff abnormalities (i.e. cancer) under the skin in other animals (including people). Sometimes before there are any symptoms present. It might be possible that gliders can do the same and are "getting rid of" the sickness.

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#322925 - 06/24/07 01:06 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Karin]
Msdoolittle Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 582
Loc: Lake Worth, FL
Was a culture taken on Lynsie's or was it just the gram stain? What kind of bacteria grew from Tira's culture?

_________________________
~Janet~
Mom to 2 daughters (Laura & Kayla)
4 suggies (Scooter & Snickers, Coral,& Portia)
3 birds (Prince,Lucy,Sidney)
1 dog (Sammy)


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#322955 - 06/24/07 01:34 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Msdoolittle]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I can't be of much help here Karin. There is so much we just don't know.

When Whisper came to me, she had a huge mating wound. Lucy had taken her to the vet where they did a culture and found the wound full of e-coli. Antibiotics were given as well as flushing the wound several times a day with an iodine solution. The wound scabbed over but in doing so, trapped bacteria. She was returned to the vet where they had to reopen it to clean it out again. They did another culture and the e-coli was no longer present but another bacteria was found (sorry, I don't know what). Same antibiotic was used and continued with the wound flushing.

I think that perhaps Jen is on the right track with the nails causing pin holes and bacteria getting in. Once in, if it closes, it traps that bacteria in causing an abcess, which either the glider senses or other gliders sense. If that abcess gets large enough, it will pop or will be groomed open resulting in the large wounds we are seeing.

We all know that when a glider is injured, they have to be kept seperate from other gliders to prevent the others from "helping" groom the wound, which just makes it worse.

I wish I had the solution here. I think though before we can find a solution, we really have to be able to identify just what the problem is and I'm not sure we will ever be able to conclusivly do that.

Why do I think this is happening in our captive gliders? Well, if you take a human baby and raise them in a sterile bubble, their own natural immune system does not have a chance to develope. If they are then taken out of that bubble and exposed to even a minor virus, that child can become life threatening ill. I wonder if our obcession with keeping their habitats CLEAN may be hindering their natural immune system from developing like it would in the wild?
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#323024 - 06/24/07 02:33 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Dancing]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
I get so MAD at myself....I remember it began with an "S"...I remember it was life threatening in humans (internally).
I wish I could go back to Nov. email tant.

Still looking..

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#323033 - 06/24/07 02:44 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Karin]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Teresa, I think you may be onto something with that line of thinking. I clean my cages every 2 wks. I only spot clean for large pieces of food, etc. My gliders go everywhere (except work) with me and are exposed to many people. We go outside, Wal-Mart, restaurants, etc. The only health issues I've ever had were C got slightly dehydrated because she wouldn't drink from a certain bottle and that was the only one in the cage at the time and I gave her pedialyte immediately to rehydrate. A day or two later she was hissing while urinating, but I only saw that once and she was cleared by the vet. Tiki also has a minor pouch infection that we are treating, but again it is minor. I honestly think that exposing your gliders to different things will really help boost their immune systems.
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#323049 - 06/24/07 03:15 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: princessmegi]
Msdoolittle Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 582
Loc: Lake Worth, FL
Was it Serratia, Staphylococcus,or Streptococcus?

I am a lab tech. If I remember, I will culture my gliders' nails in the morning to see what grows. Same with the cage bottom.
_________________________
~Janet~
Mom to 2 daughters (Laura & Kayla)
4 suggies (Scooter & Snickers, Coral,& Portia)
3 birds (Prince,Lucy,Sidney)
1 dog (Sammy)


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#323118 - 06/24/07 04:37 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Msdoolittle]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Serratia....that's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#323178 - 06/24/07 05:21 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Karin]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
hug2 Karin, I am so sorry about your sweet little Tira. Prayers are with her and you.
In my medical research years, while studying bacterial cultures has shown that once the "cytoskeleton" breaks down around the cell, it is prone to contract bacteria that will move rapid throughout the immune system. If not detected early, and treated with Augmentin (a antibiotic with cell structure enzymes) to kill the bacteria and allow the cytoskeleton to rebuild itself is why the invasion can not be stopped.
I'm not familiar with the immune system in sugar gliders, but we studied the the effects on SCID mice (severe combined immune difficiency) they lacked the T3 cell which is the immune cell.
Hope this isn't too scientific....just my thoughts....
Again, Karin I am so sorry.

off_topic I always enjoyed reading your posts about your babies, and just to fill you in on a little secret wink when I first started in the glider community you were my "glider mentor" May Gods love and light be with your little Tira. heart

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#323250 - 06/24/07 06:59 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: LSardou]
Msdoolittle Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 582
Loc: Lake Worth, FL
Serratia is a nasty bacteria. It has a resistant sensitivity pattern-translation it is not easy to treat. In people we culture it most often in those who have been in intensive care. I know it can be normal fecal flora in healthy people, but we usually don't notice it in stool cultures. It can turn very pretty shades of pink/orange/red on the agar, so we always show it off to our coworkers when we have one.

I wonder if Serratia is part of glider normal flora and becomes a problem if a nail scratch allows it to get under the skin?

I am so sorry you lost Tira.
_________________________
~Janet~
Mom to 2 daughters (Laura & Kayla)
4 suggies (Scooter & Snickers, Coral,& Portia)
3 birds (Prince,Lucy,Sidney)
1 dog (Sammy)


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#323277 - 06/24/07 07:11 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: LSardou]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Karin hug2 I know how very hard this is for you not only to bring up again, but to bring it out in the open like this for everyone to study and try to learn by.

I have to say though, to me, Jen (XFile) makes a very good point. In the second picture you posted, you can definitely see signs of infection on the wound site itself. So even though it was less then 24 hours, it was definitely a fast growing and spreading infection.

I also tend to agree with the fact that it may have been a small area and I do believe gliders will try to help rid others of *problems* so it is very possible that she may have broken the skin by cleaning it, and he just thought he was helping out.

I sent Lynsies pictures of her gliders over to Dr. T and he wrote me back saying that it looked like a bite wound. And since her gliders didnt get infected as yours did, that would lead me to believe that they happened in totally different ways??? dunno

We may never know the answer, but thanks for bringing the awareness out to folks. You are right, there does seem to be a lot going on lately.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#323301 - 06/24/07 07:37 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Srlb]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So sorry to hear about your Tira hug2

All the hypotheses posted so far seem very reasonable.

Another possibility is that perhaps a wound like this in a glider may start out as a very small scratch. I have seen mine get small scratches from the pin in their Wodent Wheel, grooming eachother a bit too hard, little scuffles or arguments, etc. Since gliders are such ACTIVE little guys and they do tend to "groom" or try to "fix" wounds (both on themselves or others), something that started out as a small cut might have become a much larger cut in a short period of time.

Especially with a prey animal like a glider, where it would be selected for them to not display pain and run around like nothing is wrong even if they are injured, it's possible Tira could have gotten a minor wound earlier in the night, and just kept running around and playing and the wound could have opened up more throughout the night. I don't think that cuts or injuries slow them down much, so they can easily make them worse.

Once you have an open wound like this, it's very easy for nasty bacteria to move in and make the condition much worse.

Please don't feel like this is your fault or Misu's. And thank you for sharing so we can all learn more. hug2

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#323308 - 06/24/07 07:41 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Srlb]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
If nothing else, this brings awareness to these types of wounds. Since the major damage was not what you see in the pics, but under the arm area...I am beginning to understand and believe we had something else going on here (no longer blaming Misu). The 2nd pic was when we first arrived at the vet's and she was holding Tira. It was definately nasty...cleaned up nice though.

The cause of her death was not the wound itself, I do not believe, but complications afterwards, but that's not what this post is about smile. Thank you everyone who has read and/or replied...this is how we learn.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#323405 - 06/24/07 09:16 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Dancing
I wonder if our obcession with keeping their habitats CLEAN may be hindering their natural immune system from developing like it would in the wild?


I do think that you are on to something here. I only bleach down the cage every 2 weeks and wipe it down every few days with a wet washcloth to remove large peices of food. When i wash their braches and toys i do not usually disinfect them. I feel like in the wild they would never encounter the sterile conditions that we keep them in. In the wild there is bacteria and feces all over, not to mention the elements.

Maybe because all of our babies were bred in captivity, hopefully to clean smart breeders, their immune systems are underdeveloped.

In this case with Tira i think what everyone has been saying is probably what happened, a small wound that got infected and spread under the skin. I dont think there was really anything that could have prevented that, but i am wondering if we were not so ocd with our cleaning our babies might be healthier in general.

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#323482 - 06/24/07 10:48 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


i'm very sorry for your loss......

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#323561 - 06/25/07 01:27 AM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: ]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
As most of you know, I had a similar situation. I found a wound on Petunia right behind her ear. It looked like it could have started a nail getting snagged or some thing. Two days later (after I had spoken to the vet) the wound became infected so I started to administer antibiotics(per vet consult). A day or two after that the wound had turned into a large absess (about the size of a quarter) and burst. It stunk so bad I could have puked and it was infected. Petunia saw the vet immediately and I was advised that the infection was draining and that Petunia would recover. The whole time I am under the impression that Petunia had just gotten snagged on something.

Two weeks after I had found Petunia's wound, I found a wound on one of her cage mates that was totally different. It looked more like a bite wound, like the skin was scrapped rather than snagged like Petunia's. Now I am confused and have no idea what could have caused this. This only thing I can think of is that one of their cage mates (Carmela) had caused the wounds, but there is no way I will ever know for sure.

I did have the wound tested for bateria and it came back clean, so I don't think it was the same cause as Tira's wound.

You can see pics and more info here: http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/311982/page/1#Post311982 I really wish I had taken a pic of Petunia's wound right after the absess burst, but it was so nasty I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#323568 - 06/25/07 01:55 AM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: twiggie
[quote=Dancing] but i am wondering if we were not so ocd with our cleaning our babies might be healthier in general.


This reminds me of something my father said to me many years ago when I lost my dog and again years later when I had problems with a garden.

He said I "babied" everything too much. That that only weakens animals and plants so they can't do or stand on their own. Long story how it came about but I got upset and hurt by what he said. Many years later after he passed away, his words kept coming back to me in one way or another.

He was right. I have the absolute most beautiful roses and every plant, vine, fruit trees, fruit and grapes you may ever see.

Now, it's hard not to baby the gliders so I baby them constantly. However, I don't use bleach on the cages or strong cleaners and I don't clean constantly either. I keep things wiped down with plain hot water as needed and wash toys, pouches, perches, etc. as needed also.

As crazy as I was making my gliders in the beginning by cleaning everything, I was going crazy worrying everything had to be sanitary all the time and they made me nuts marking even more, lol. They don't live that way in the wild. It's their instinct to keep their territory heavily marked.

I remember as a kid being "forced" to get the chicken pox at 7 cause if we got them older it could kill us.

Sure enough, my oldest daughter almost died at age 15 from them. Her sister was 5 and had them too but came through fine. (now there are shots to prevent chicken pox however, my son got them lightly anyway at 25 and ended up in the hospital for 2 weeks)

I stopped panicking over every cold with my youngest and she has fared way better than my older two. My older kids (pushing 30 now, grr lol) have lots of health problems probably from me keeping things spotless and running to the E.R everytime they got a fever. I didn't do that with my youngest and she doesn't even have allergies! Nothing, nada!

Makes me wonder. Sorry, rambling here I suppose.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#323788 - 06/25/07 11:27 AM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
SugarBlossems...I can SO relate to everything you just said hug2 , thank you for saying! I baby everything too...new garden planted this spring (new house), and I check my plants and talk to them everyday roflmao. Anyway, you know what I am saying.


OK...let me say this. The Serratia was NOT the cause of the wound. Once the wound was there, the bacteria found it's way onto the wound and did it's dirty work. The vet was adament about telling me this and was not concerned at all about the Serratia since it was an external thing.

Also, Tira's passing was a combination of things at the time. I blame myself mostly, with good reason.

What I am looking for is correlation with other wounds not known to be mating wounds, and just how they are getting there....IF there is a connection we might be missing. It's a long road, I am sure, but who knows...someday we might have a better understanding smile .

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#323803 - 06/25/07 11:34 AM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Karin]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Please keep this in mind as well:

Gliders in the wild have ACRES to roam. They are not confined to a cage, in a house, with no way to move, concentrated bacteria, no fresh air circulation (or minimal), and likely do not pee where they eat and sleep repeatedly (several of mine poop in ONE area of the cage). They aren't subjected to 'fumes' coming from the excrement and food in their cage trays, urine soaks into wood and dries-it does not on plastic (pvc) coated wire and plastic toys, it becomes a concentrated, sticky film. Stop and think about that.

While I agree that exposure can be a good thing...I would NEVER recommend less cage cleaning to get it. frown
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#323837 - 06/25/07 12:21 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Xfilefan]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
I didn't mean to not clean the cage, just not to overclean. When I 1st started researching glider 4-5 yrs ago, it was recommended to clean every 2 weeks. It has only been in the last year or so that once a week has become the norm. It seems that this is more because people are worried about smell than anything else. Also wanted to clarify that my drop pans are cleaned out every other day.

_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#323840 - 06/25/07 12:24 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: princessmegi]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I know megi hug2 But that's where it sounded like some of the following comments were going, and it's not the first time I've heard it suggested. Just wanted to make sure we didn't see a sudden upsurge in UTI's too. crazy
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#323852 - 06/25/07 12:33 PM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Xfilefan]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Also, wanted to add that when I clean the cage, I do so with a bleach solution. I used to use vinegar, but am now able to take the cage outside and can use bleach (didn't want to ruin my carpet). I also clean all toys in vinegar water with a little bleach. Their pouches, fleece, etc are all washed in the washer with detergent.

For those who may be reading and think they shouldn't be cleaning their cages often, that is not what I am suggesting. I'm just suggesting we be less worried about our homes staying clean and unsmelly and worry more about overcleaning our gliders' habitats. They do need to be in a clean environment, but let's no make it so clean that there is nothing close to natural about it.
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#326503 - 06/28/07 09:14 AM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: princessmegi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I also want to clarify that i do clean the cage on a regular basis i just try not to use chemicals and sterilize it. The drop tray is cleaned out e/o day and pouches regularly washed. I was just suggesting that the sterile enviorment might be harder for them to survive in than a clean but not sterile one. But either way it needs to be cleaned in some way regularly.

To each there own- if your babies seem healthy and happy and you feel comfortible with the level of cleanliness than i dont think you need to worry.

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#326510 - 06/28/07 09:21 AM Re: Discussion/education post/Wounds [Re: Karin]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Karin

Also, Tira's passing was a combination of things at the time. I blame myself mostly, with good reason.


Karin please dont blame yourself there is no way you could have known it was that bad. And when you did realize you did what you could. It was just tira's time and she had six great year with you and misu, be happy for that. And at least when she passed she had the comfort of you cleaning and nursing her so her last days were filled with lots of love.

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