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#329 - 02/25/03 06:39 AM Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements??????
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glider Greetings, PhoenixZorn: <img border="0" alt="wave" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

I would be interested in seeing some numbers or reasons supporting your statement: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by PhoenixZorn:
<strong> There is NOT enough calcium in the BML... I don't care what anyone says. I use the stuff, and my kids like it, but it has a negative calcium to Phosphorous ratio even with the herpivite. You must dust salad and/or bugs to supplement enough calcium for your animals.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Several months ago, I did a little nutritional work on the BML mix to see, for myself, what the analysis really was. The reason that I did this was because I could only find one published document that specified actual numbers and that was done for a BML recipe that is slightly different from the one that is currently published.

In a nutshell, the analysis is as follows for one full batch of BML:

Protein..................40.1g.....(16%)
Fat.......................21.7g.....( 9%)
Carb....................185.4g.....(75%)
Calcium................2772mg
Phosphorus.............767mg
Ca/P ratio...............3.6:1

I derived the the nutritional information from the USDA National Nutrient Database. It is in very close agreement with the earlier work done by Dr. Bruce Ross. You can verify the above figures by looking at:

USDA NATIONAL NUTRIENT DATABASE, if you so choose.

Clearly, the above numbers do not show a negative Ca/P ratio as you have suggested.

As to the second part of your statement: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by PhoenixZorn:
<strong>Also, read the labels on the 2 kinds of Herpivite you are using... I do believe both have d3, which is dangerous to all reptiles, and I'm sure to gliders as well. I would personally suggest using a calcium only supplement along with a miltivitamin supplement that doesn't contain d3 at all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did read the labels on the various containers and I have a question or two.

1. I just reviewed the REP-CAL Web site and they only list ONE type of Herptivite and it doesn't contain any Vitamin D3 according to the label.

2. While it is generally accepted that excess Vitamin D3 can be dangerous to all animals, not just reptiles, everything that I read suggests that Vitamin D3 is necessary for the proper absorbsion of calcium by a living body. Since gliders are nocturnal animals and do not get exposed to enough sunlight to manufacture adequate amounts of their own Vitamin D3, it would seem to be necessary to supplement that vitamin. I would be interested in knowing on what information you base your statement that it should not be provided.

3. I wonder why a reputable manufacturer, like Rep-Cal Research Labs, would add Vitamin D3 to it's calcium supplements if it is so dangerous to reptiles, when their supplements are manufactured specifically for reptiles???

(Just in case anybody noticed, the numbers that were posted originally have changed slightly. There was a typo which I corrected and several other numbers were changed because I entered my preliminary values instead of my final results.)

<small>[ 02-26-2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: RANDY ]</small>

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#330 - 02/25/03 08:21 AM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Are you sure those numbers are correct? The fat ratio seems way off. Even though it's only 9% of the diet in grams, each gram of fat contains 9 calories, as opposed to protein and carbohydrates containing 4 calories per gram. That means gliders are getting more calories from fat than from protein!

I'm sorry for posting a bit of the main topic. As far as vitamin D goes, it is necessary for the assimilation of calcium. The supplement I use contains much less of D than of calcium, to prevent D overdose.

<small>[ 02-25-2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Mage ]</small>

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#331 - 02/25/03 03:06 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Pardon me Randy. My words got jumbled in my own run on sentences... What I meant to say was that if you have 2 types of supplements that both contain Vitamin D3, and mix them, the combined concentration of D3 can be harmful to reptiles and Gliders.

As for the content of D3 in the BML, Rep-Cal with D3 contains 400,000 I.U./kg of Vitamin D3. I am suggesting that we find a supplement with less D3, as this amount is dangerously high if fed too much. My own suggestion was Miner-All, which contains only 4,400 I.U./kg, and is rated one of the best vitamin supplememnts on the reptile market. On another note, Rep-Cal was designed specifically for dusting crickets and other insects for reptiles, yes, but it was only intended to be used 2-3 times per week.

Nutrition Information

I don't know the actual numbers for BML, and I'm sure the numbers you have listed take into account all of the ingredients. However, I am inclined to think that the Phosphorous ratio is higher than you reported, and it has nothing to do with your math.


Honey - 1 cup of honey has these attributes:

Calcium, Ca 20.340mg
Phosphorus, P 13.560mg
Vitamin B-6 0.081mg
Vitamin B-12 0.000mcg
Niacin/B-3 0.410mg
Riboflavin/B-2 0.129mg
Pantothenic acid/B-5 0.231mg

Ca:P ratio, 1.5:1

Apple Juice - 1 cup

Calcium, Ca 17.360mg
Phosphorus, P 17.360mg
B-Vitamins Negligable

Ca:P ratio, 1:1

Yogurt/Juice combo, 4oz contains -

Calcium 10% USRDA for Humans

Ingredients -
Banana Puree - 1 cup - Calcium, Ca 13.500mg, Phosphorus, P 45.000mg
Yogurt - 1 cup - Calcium, Ca 224.870mg, Phosphorus, P 177.410mg - Ca:P ratio, 1.26:1
White grape juice - 1 cup serving, 22mg Ca, 27mg P
Pear Juice - 1 cup serving, 22mg Ca, 29mg P
I'm getting progressively lazy now....

Chicken Baby Food - 1 jar - Calcium, Ca 39.050mg, Phosphorus, P 63.900mg Ca:P ratio, .6111:1

Wheat Germ - 1 cup - Calcium, Ca 44.850mg, Phosphorus, P 968.300mg Ca:P ratio, .046:1

Baby cereal - 1 Tbsp - Calcium, Ca 17.275mg, Phosphorus, P 10.250mg

I don't want to do all the math, but as you can see... even if you cut the Wheat Germ alone by 4, as it calls for 1/4 cup of it in the BML, you'd still have more P than Ca, so the BML does have a negative Ca:P ratio.

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#332 - 02/25/03 03:08 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


As for the contents of the supplements we add, I don't know the Ca:P ratio on those, but I know that most are not higher than 3:1.

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#333 - 02/25/03 07:57 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glider Greetings, PhoenixZorn: <img border="0" alt="wave" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

O.K., PZ, I see what you are saying. We have a problem of definitions. You are talking about the BML mix without the REP-CAL and the Herptivite and you are correct. The BML ingredients without the REP-CAL and the Herptivite do have a negative ratio.....I believe it is something like 0.5:1. The numbers that I quoted are for the BML mix with the Herptivite and REP-CAL. Since the published recipe for the BML "mix" includes REP-CAL and Herptivite, I think one should not refer to it as BML unless you are talking about the mix with it's full suite of ingredients. Regardless, we are on the same page now.....we were talking apples and oranges before.((The analyses that you posted for the various BML ingredients are, essentially, in agreement with the figures that I used except for egg (negative ratio).))

BTW, I was just discussing the issue of mixing multiple supplements that all had Vitamin D3 and made exactly the same recommendation that you suggest...... DON'T. Lisa at Sun Coast Gliders recommends Gimborn Vionate which is a vitamin supplement with Vitamin D3(22,000 I.U./kg); but, uses REP-CAL without D3. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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#334 - 02/25/03 10:18 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


PhoenixZorn <img border="0" alt="wave" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> ,
Sometime ago I have asked about the Miner-all.
I also have reptiles and that's what I use to supplement their foods.
Do you use the Miner-all with you glider??

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#335 - 02/25/03 10:51 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Just a quick questions about your calulations? Did you add in the Veggies and fruit? Because The BML includes that too. That will change the ratio's. BML is NOT just the mix but the veggies and fruit all added in.
_________________________
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#336 - 02/25/03 11:02 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mek

Indeed I do use Miner-All. I wasn't about to spend another $20.00 on a giant can of Rep-Cal and Herpivite when I already have a suitable, and less expensive alternative. On a comparitive scale, I think Miner-All actually has the same vitamins found in both repcal and herpivite, with the best benefit being only 4400 I.U./kg of D3, which is more than enough for lizards AND gliders.

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#337 - 02/26/03 12:11 AM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glider Greetings, Ellen: <img border="0" alt="wave" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

The numbers that I posted are for just the BML "mix"; because I believe that is what PZ was talking about.

Adding the nutritional values of the fruits, veggies and insects to the above figures will bring down the Ca/P ratio to the neighborhood of 2:1.....the generally accepted ideal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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#338 - 02/26/03 12:15 AM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Randy and Ellen

Indeed, when I posted my own findings, I didn't include the vitamins in the calculations because I don't have those numbers readily available. Read my post on the Gelatin Mix... it too has a 2:1 Ca:P ratio... or should be close. It is designed to be the main course for Turtles (originally) kept in Zoos, and I've modified it slightly to be palatable to gliders too.

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#339 - 02/26/03 12:30 AM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glider Greetings, Mage: <img border="0" alt="wave" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

You are reading the right book.......but, asking the wrong question!!! Yes, the fat values are correct.......what you should have asked is why the protein value is so low!!!! <img border="0" alt="idea" title="" src="graemlins/thinkerg.gif" />

I don't know the answer to that question. It is something I am looking into right now. Since I first learned about the BML diet, the numbers never seemed to match up with the golden rule of glider diets ".......35-50% protein...." and to date I have seen no adequate explanation of the discrepancy. <img border="0" alt="dunno" title="" src="graemlins/nixweiss.gif" />

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#340 - 02/26/03 04:26 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Randy... i think you replied in the wrong area... heh...

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#341 - 02/26/03 08:59 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's was just a reply to my post, WAY up there... I guess it just got lost in the mix. But thanks for the reply, Randy!

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#342 - 02/28/03 09:45 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


removed this because of missing vit d and wrong conversions. reposted below


Edited by Shelly & Marty (03/01/03 08:34 PM)

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#343 - 03/01/03 01:04 AM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Guys:

E-mail on the way

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#344 - 03/01/03 08:38 PM Re: Calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements?????? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


sorry my brain was wobbling last night. had to sleep. i am only trying to figure this vit d thing out any info to improve these figures would be appreciated. no info was coming to me fri. so i searched on my own. i have changed some numbers to account for found vit d today and wrong conversions yesterday.
.
First I questioned where the 152 iu/glider came from in the ASGS research paper as this seems to be an excessive amount 1.5 iu/gram body weight. The only other significant vit d i found in bml mix besides rep-cal was in the egg at 25 iu (change in numbers shown).
vit d research paper findings
152 iu/glider (127)
x2 tbs/cube
304 iu/cube (254)
x16 cubes/mix
4864 iu/mix (4064)
4064 iu/mix
divided 400 iu/gram from below would equal 10 grams would equal 5 tsp./mix of rep-cal
I came to the conclusion that this information will have to come from elsewhere.

I then questioned how many iu was in a container of rep-cal
400,000 iu/kg (from rep-cal container)
divided 1000 grams
400 iu/gram used again in my findings above and above
x116 grams/container
46,400 iu/container

because i could not figure out the research findings i worked out my own findings.
my findings(sorry about guess no scale tell me if to far off)
4 grams/mix (guess 1/2 tsp.=1 gram)
x400 iu/gram from above
1600 iu/mix
divide 16 cubes
100 iu/cube
divide 2 gliders
50 iu/glider
divide 100 grams for glider weight
.5 iu/gram body weight
again sorry about the guess i will redo if i'm that far off.

ALSO NOTE
this was done so i could see how many mixes a container of rep-cal would provide so i could see if it looked right.
4 grams/mix
divided 116 grams/container
29 mixes/container
I came to a conclusion that this might be close but i thought i would get a few more mixes/container.

i then questioned what would be an expectable level for a nocturnal marsupial and found that this information does not exist. so i decided to compare it to a mammal for fun.
usrda recommends no more than 1000 iu intake/infant. this is the highest acceptable limit for a infant.
1000 iu/infant
divide 9072 grams weight of infant
.1 iu/gram body weight
i came to the conclusion that although this is a number it does no represent much because it does not take into account the vit d from sunlight and the fact that an infant is not a sugar glider.


my final conclusion: i have none because of to much missing info. these are just some findings.

i have found no medical evidence to suggest any glider on bml has ever been exposed to excessive vit d.
that http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/vitd.html is a interesting page for reading.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl has more nutritional info than my brain can stand.
http://www.convert-me.com/en/ is a handy site
http://www.sugarglider.net/ and http://www.glidersociety.com/board/index.php are places to get info.


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