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#33263 - 01/07/05 09:35 AM Line breeding/In-breeding
Anonymous
Unregistered


Not that I condone either one (since I know little to nothing about these topics)... but I do have questions. How, exactly does in-breeding and line breeding help to produce certain colors. Is line breeding used just when there is only "one line" to create other lines that are very far from related? I was looking at some Best of the Board posts from years ago, and people were talking about in breeding not being bad when done correctly. I know there is a difference between the two, but not sure the details of it. Can someone clarify this? For instance, on thepetglider website, some of the white on white variations, how were the produced exactly? I have not seen them anywhere else but her site. Thanks to anyone who can help me out here! I'm not saying I'm planning on doing this, etc... I'm just curious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />

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#33264 - 01/07/05 09:56 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
kati Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: NY
almost every variation has been acheived by some form of inbreeding or linebreeding (with the acception of the more common variations like cinnamon) There are good ways to line breed, then there are bad ways. Breeding gliders to closely can cause defects like infertility. Breedings like second cousins or nephew to great aunt will not be likely to cause any problems and are needed to acheive the variation. All of priscillas variation gliders were not origanally hers and they were in bred a little to closely and it has caused some infertility in her males. She is now pairing those white variation gliders with other gliders like champagne that still carry the white gene but are not related and has been very sucsessful with getting white variation babies.

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#33265 - 01/07/05 10:47 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Inbreeding should not be done, too risky when it comes to health problems and birth defects. Line breeding is a good way to produce more of one variation. Line breeding is used because you know the gene is carried in those certain gliders. Obviously pairing the genes together, you will have more of the chance of producing the variation you are looking for. The white gene and the white tip gene are 2 variations that I know can benefit from line breeding... the other variations have a good amount of different bloodlines, so line breeding is not needed.

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#33266 - 01/07/05 04:34 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Inbreeding and line breeding are one in the same but it is the degree of the breeding that seperates the two from each other.

Inbreeding is breeding parent to sibling or sibling to sibling. This type of breeding is rather intense as one is able to achieve thier goal much quicker. But...it has drawbacks due to possible genetic problems with the line.

On the other hand...line breeding is to a distant relatives such as an aunt or uncle to neice or nephew to a grandparent and occassional parent. Thus one is able to obtain their goal at a slower pace....without compromizing the overall health of the animal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Judie (01/07/05 04:38 PM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#33267 - 01/07/05 04:56 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks Judie,
When you say inbreeding will make you achieve your goal quicker, can you give me an example of this?

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#33268 - 01/07/05 05:05 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


She means that you will get the color quicker then in line breeding.

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#33269 - 01/07/05 08:09 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Obviously, but can someone give me an example of when this was done, or how someone did it to get a certain color?

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#33270 - 01/07/05 08:14 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If, say, there were only 2 BEWs available for breeding, then if you mated a sister to a brother, you'd have another BEW. But, if you avoid that, then you'd have to mate a BEW to non-BEW for a few generations before breeding back in the family, and it would take years to get them back to BEW, instead of a few months.

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#33271 - 01/07/05 09:11 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
For someone wanting to produce white .... one would breed to sibling hets together to produce white. Or take a white and breed it to it's het offspring.

One time of inbreeding can be a good thing. But when done repeatedly for several generations...usually sterility becomes a problem as well as compromized immune systems.

Because the BEW is rare...if you do some homework on the lines....you will see where we are line breeding in order to produce a healthy line of white gliders. This is a very slow process.

Line breeding of the wf blonde has been an on going project. This variation shade of color now goes back four years or more.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#33272 - 01/07/05 09:16 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sheila's "sunkissed" glider, Calypso... how was he produced? Or was it just random that he came out like that?

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#33273 - 01/07/05 11:54 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I beleive it was a random thing. If you go to Sheila's site you can see how she pairs them up. Click...meet the family.

She is working on a genology program that will help others understand who is related to whom and it will eventually be visible to those who visit her site.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#33274 - 01/08/05 08:21 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


if you would like to know more about line breeding here is a link to another post http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/sh...=true#Post27243

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#33275 - 01/09/05 02:22 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
One time of inbreeding can be a good thing. But when done repeatedly for several generations...usually sterility becomes a problem as well as compromized immune systems.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Judie,

Id like to thank you for your time posting, your posts are very helpful.

I have a question about that comment. Why would inbreeding once be ok, but not to do it repeatedly? When females breed for a while with the same mate (say, sibling for instance) does their offspring they produce change over time? I would think if you could inbreed once with it being just fine then you could inbreed other times with safe chances as well. I am just curious as to how this would work, or why sterility would "eventually" come, but wouldn't happen if you only bred siblings once?
I saw that your Shy Baby who produces a lot was produced by sister and brother (correct me if I am wrong, I don't have factual information, it's hearsay), also the BEW Saleen was produced from inbreeding of siblings and she seems fine as well. So I just wonder that if what you mean by your paragraph was sterility will happen over time with two sibling or likewise related animals, or if you meant something else, if you could clarify that would be greatly appreciated.

The reason I bring this up is I have a WFB with a leucistic diluted gene. I believe this gives her the appearance of a sun-kissed WFB mixed with cinnamon. I guess one could call it "white faced lion", if you will. I have been searching for a mate for her after finding out her beautiful mate she was with was neutered, and the gal I bought her from did not inform me of that.

Well, I have the chance to purchase a WFB who is very likely to be her sibling, he is about the same age as well. However after reading this post I wonder what you mean by sterility in breeding offspring, even if it were to produce prettier gliders in the outcome.

Thank you Judie. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#33276 - 01/09/05 05:00 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
When line breeding....only three generations count. The fourth is too far removed.

Yes, ShyBaby and Saleen are a result of two hets who were a sibling x sibling breeding. This is why it is important not to inbreed his offspring for several generations. This type of breeding was a 100% genetic copy. Let's pretend now that ShyBaby was bred back to Saleen. Now we have increased the chances greatly of producing white because of another inbreeding. Now those offspring are bred back to the parents. Now we see the gentic pool starting to become real tight...running the risk of genetic problems. This is inbreeding to the highest degree.

There was another breeder who had white. Her breeding program was quite intense with a closed gene pool for four years or so. Now...there only seems to be one line that does not have a problem with sterility while the other line...it does. The other part of a breeding program is...records. With these gliders the records have been lost so this makes it even more difficult for the newest breeder who has taken on the challange of correcting the problems even more challanging.

Right now I have three whites. And they are paired to 100% Hets for leucistic. Two hets are unrelated to their partners and one het is related to his mate by his father being the great grandfather to one white. The idea is to produce white or 100% hets without inbreeding one another to each other. Then these offspring should be paired to normals to produce possible hets. Then breed the possible hets back to a white who is a aunt/uncle or cousins. This type of breeding is slow but should have good results for having a sound line of white gliders.

The problem I see...with a few unknown breeders who may be in a big hurry to produce white....will choose the most severe and quickest way to produce white and if so...it will be done at the expense of the gliders overall health.

One cannot expect to inbreed tightly for many generations and not run the risk of sterility or compromised immune systems in the end. After all...look at what has happened to some pedigree Dogs and Cats. And it did not happen overnight but rather many generations of severe inbreeding.


Edited by Judie (01/09/05 05:04 AM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#33277 - 01/09/05 12:59 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
Okay, I have a question on generations; how exactly do you count 4 generations? Is it at second cousins that they are considered unrelated and can be bred together? I found an awesome chart Here:

http://www.cuddleinternational.org/genetics/kinship.html

that explains how to do the removed part, etc, but I am still lost as how to count generations!

I have two WFBs that have the same grandparents; I want to know, if their babies can be bred together. (These two are with different mates.) The babies will be second cousins, and from what I have read, that is okay to breed together.
_________________________
Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.

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#33278 - 01/09/05 02:08 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
From what I understand...the two gliders are related by the grandparents on each side of the pedigree. Thus these two gliders are first cousins and are third generation.

Once the offspring from these two are paired then they will be second cousins and will be fourth generation. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#33279 - 01/10/05 12:37 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Don't quote me, but it is safer to breed second cousins if one of the parents of the cousin is a normal glider. This would be like a Leucistic and a normal being one set and a Leucistic and a normal being another set and put their two offspring together. The Leucistics would be brother and sister. The normal's would be unrelated.
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#33280 - 01/10/05 12:50 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
My above reply was in reference to two wf blondes who are related by grandparents. The two wf blondes are paired to normals The result then of these two new pairs would result with offspring that would be second cousins that are fourth generation as the great grandfather was the grandfather of the orig two wf blondes which are first cousins.

sounds a bit confusing I know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#33281 - 01/10/05 11:05 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Sheila, maybe I am reading your post wrong...but from what you wrote....

Two Leucistics (brother and Sister) are each paired to a standard colored gliders that are non related.

The two pairs now produce offspring and they now are first cousins to each other on one side of their pedigree because they have the same Grandparents and at the same time are 100% Hets for Leucistic.

Now...these two first cousins are paired together with the result of their offspring being a second cousins and are Possible Hets.

If one pairs sibling Leucistics to "unrelated" Leucistic Hets...it seems the outcome would be the same as above except for the likelyhood of producing white in 50% of the first cousins. Second cousins would be Possible Hets.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#33282 - 01/22/05 06:25 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


2 1/2 yrs ago when I bought my first glider I also purchased a bokk ( all about sugargliders) in this book it says that you can raise families in a housing unit and they will not interbreed. Well, the book was wrong. One of my babies, she is about 1yr old has a set of twins in her pouch. But I do not know who the father is. It is either her twin or her father. Obviously the book was very wrong and I have since separated them, but what I am needing to know is if there will be anything wrong with her twins when they come out of the pouch. Please reply directly to my email add []blonde1@intellex.com[/]

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#33283 - 01/22/05 06:49 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Most likely not, but if they are male neuter them and if they are female, do not ever breed them. These babies should be pets only.

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#33284 - 01/22/05 10:05 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Line breeding is an invaluable tool that a breeder must use inorder to maintaing a rare color in the population. I have been documenting the leucistic geneology for the purpose of sharing it with other leucistic breeders so that they might be more informed about their particular gliders relation to possible mates to avoid unintentional inbreedings. There appears to be less than 5 lines of sugar gliders and this makes it very difficult to find totally unrelated breeders. Without careful records and continual updating of these records problems such as sterillity and mutations might end lines and eventually lead to the loss of that color in the United States population. The albino line is even more restricted. It is ok to line breed if you have the records of several generations and there are no signs of sterility or genetic defects. Once a genetic defect has occured the pair needs to be split up and not allowed to breed until the cause of the defects and the mode of transmission is discovered. The glider that is the carrier for that defect then needs to be spayed or neutered to prevent further pollution of the gene pool. If measures like this are not taken and breeding continues the glider will likly continue to pass the defect throught the population and it may effect the breedability of the line.

Ushuaia

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#33285 - 01/23/05 02:19 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I have been documenting the leucistic geneology for the purpose of sharing it with other leucistic breeders so that they might be more informed about their particular gliders relation to possible mates to avoid unintentional inbreedings.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I've asked you a few times to set me up with a copy of your information. I'd love to see it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#33286 - 01/23/05 01:59 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would also like to see this too (the info).

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#33287 - 01/24/05 02:22 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Right now the information is only available to breeders that own a leucistic or a het for leucistic.

Ushuaia

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#33288 - 01/24/05 08:27 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
Ohhhh, well aren't you feeling special Chris? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
You never asked me if I had any leus or hets, so I never told you, lol.
I don't understand why it would really matter whether I own one or not? Some people just want to learn or are just plain curious.
It can't be that hard to send the info in an email? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Anyways back to the topic at hand <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#33289 - 01/24/05 10:28 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ern... wow. Chris, everyone is here to learn so why would you not be able to share your information with everybody? Are you saying that people who do not own leucistics are lesser or are not looking to learn as much about them as people who do own them? I'm sure plenty of people on this board would like to see what you have found.

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#33290 - 01/25/05 02:03 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yeah I was thinking that same thing what if some people want to learn as much as they can about the leucistics so that they know what to do and how to do it and then they would get one? And I think everyone wants to know about all the white color gliders espically Leucistics!

P.S. If you guy were talking about me my name is spelled Kris but if not o well.

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#33291 - 01/25/05 03:52 PM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


no, Ushuaia's real name is Chris, so I wasn't talking about you, Kris with a K, sorry for the confusion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#33292 - 01/26/05 03:24 AM Re: Line breeding/In-breeding [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
What Chris has is the geneology of all the Leucistic we know of in existence. Nothing more. He is a little behind on this, but it is hard work when so many babies are born at one time. He is a full time student and has a part time job. Ernest, Chris had just updated it before you purchased your het, so he doesn't know about it yet. I have told him that with more on the way he needs to catch up. He said he would work on it in the near future. If you would like to send me your leucistic offspring, parents and grandparents, I will be happy to put it in my data base that I am currently working on on my webpage. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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