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#337423 - 07/12/07 09:19 PM Would this create an albino?
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
So while I was sitting here cleaning my glider's cage out, I thought of something that I'm sure many breeders have thought of before.

Say you can't get ahold of an albino.
So you get a high % albino HET and breed it to a leu.

Does this create an albino?
Or are leus and albinos completely different?

Would the joey have a chance of being born white?

I'm not sure why it occurred to me, but I was just wondering. I'm not a breeder and after today, I'm sure I never will be...

But has anyone tried this? I'm just curious of the outcome.
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

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#337442 - 07/12/07 09:45 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
hockeyplayer187
Unregistered


I know nothing about breeding colors but I think Albinos and Leus are two different colors. Im sure someone here can help you way more than I can wink

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#337443 - 07/12/07 09:49 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
I know that they're different colors. (:

But in gerbils, a dark eyed white is basicly a leu. And they're just a tad bit more dominant than albinos. And a 100% albino HET agouti bred with a dark eyed white would create an albino... Or atleast it happens every time I do it.

But thanks. Maybe they aren't as closely related as I thought they were.
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

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#337445 - 07/12/07 09:49 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
hockeyplayer187
Unregistered


See I told ya I didnt know much about colors roflmao

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#337447 - 07/12/07 09:53 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
CD_Hanratty Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/14/05
Posts: 1874
Loc: St. Charles, IL
Since they are considered seperate colors, and they're both highly desireable, I dont think anyone would want to muddy the bloodlines like that. In theory, you might be able to produce an albino in that way, but I dont think you could find anyone who would be willing to try.
_________________________
Connor

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#337448 - 07/12/07 09:54 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: CD_Hanratty]
hockeyplayer187
Unregistered


I'd listen to Connor, I know for a fact he knows more about colors than I ever will laugh

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#337475 - 07/12/07 10:22 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
NO, they are two seperate dna sequencings.

BEW (leucistic) is a color variation. It comes about because of how the normal healthy alleles line up. Just as with cinnimon gliders or white face gliders.

Albinos are created by DEFECTIVE alleles. These are freaks of nature in all species.

BEWs tend to be normal healthy gliders where as albinos often have much shorter life spans and health issues associates with the albinism.
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620-704-9109
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I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#337476 - 07/12/07 10:22 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
I see what you mean. Because if it didn't work I'm sure it'd be a real bother.

Just curious.
Thanks, Connor.
(:
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

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#337477 - 07/12/07 10:23 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
And that's why I don't breed albino gerbils anymore.

(:
I was really curious more than anything.
So I guess they really aren't as closely related as I thought.

Thanks, Dancing.
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

Top
#337563 - 07/12/07 11:40 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
CD_Hanratty Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/14/05
Posts: 1874
Loc: St. Charles, IL
Originally Posted By: hockeyplayer187
I'd listen to Connor, I know for a fact he knows more about colors than I ever will laugh


I dont know nearly as much as Dancing!! I can tell you that! I just have a lot of theories, I dont get to test them =P
_________________________
Connor

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#337589 - 07/13/07 12:27 AM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: CD_Hanratty]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Oh, I'm no expert on colors. Most is still pretty new to me too. Just going off basic biology class and what I've learned here.

We had a very lengthy discussion about leucistics and albino's in my college biology class once my instructor discovered just what was in my sissy pouch!
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#337886 - 07/13/07 11:59 AM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Dancing]
MrsKing
Unregistered


I know a little about the subject so I will share:

Leucistic is 'similar' to albio except only black color can be produced. They will have black noses, eyes, and other things like that but are ALWAYS white colored. They are in no way the same thing as an albino and when bred with an albino, will not result in one.

Albino means that the body cannot produce ANY color at all. This is why they appear white with all pink features. Usually the skin is pinker and will show through the fur a little. They are almost always infertile and cannot reproduce. Albinism is a strictly recessive trait and it considered a gene mutation and unhealthy.

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#337893 - 07/13/07 12:09 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
So leus have more advantages than albinos do...

And leus don't lack pigment.
Lots of things I didn't know at all.

So what is a creamino?
I saw it on this site.

I had never seen one before. The glider was white with a very light tan strip down its back.
Is it a variation of a leu or another color all together?

One interesting thing I've learned when breeding gerbils is that albinos seem more susceptible to tumors, not to mention agoutis and standard colors generally tend to live to be 6-7 years old, while many of my albinos only made it to 4. So I stopped breeding them. I wonder just what it is that makes them die younger. Since pigment is just coloring and sun protection, maybe there is something else wrong with them?

Sorry if my questions are obnoxious. I just love learning things like this.
(:
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

Top
#337917 - 07/13/07 12:39 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
GizmosGal
Unregistered


Actually, leucistics do not have any black on them except for their eyes. The nose, ears and even eye rings are pink. If they are black, then it wouldn't be a leu, but more than likely, a mosaic.

I have several albinos. They are not infertile or unhealthy.

Albinos and leucistics are two entirely different genes.
Creaminos are T+ albinos. They have a small amt of pigment giving their fur a yellowish hue with a light stripe and burgandy eyes. Normal albinos are considered T-.

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#337923 - 07/13/07 12:44 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
So are creaminos sort of like partial-albinos found in other animal species? Like... Deer that have large white patches on them and such?

I also found it interesting that there are no melanistic gliders. I thought for sure that there would be.
(:
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

Top
#337934 - 07/13/07 12:55 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
I believe Creaminos where cross bred (With i dont know what!) through the mill breeders, flying fur ranch...

Correct me if I'm wrong...
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate

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#337952 - 07/13/07 01:16 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: MizValorie]
aproductof
Unregistered


I think Creamino's are a different type of albinism. I think it's T+ and T- or something like that. One is the albino , the other is creamino. Albino is the white with pinkish/reddish eyes, creamino is creamy white with dark red or ruby colored eyes.

and now that I look further up, all of this was explained!


Edited by aproductof (07/13/07 01:17 PM)

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#337955 - 07/13/07 01:21 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
Gina am I correct in believing they "origanted" from that mill breeder?
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate

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#337969 - 07/13/07 01:36 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: MizValorie]
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
Sorry. I'm sort of stupid. P:

I'm trying to learn about colors and what certain colors mean. I'm thinking about getting a special colored glider (not for breeding, just as a pet. They are very pretty.) And I don't want to get a color mutation that comes with a bunch of medical problems or anything.

I'm thinking about a leu or a mosaic, though it would take a bit of time to save up for.

Not to mention I am a very curious person.

There are glider mills?! Isn't that like... Really bad? ):
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

Top
#337983 - 07/13/07 01:43 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
CD_Hanratty Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/14/05
Posts: 1874
Loc: St. Charles, IL
Originally Posted By: Vincent
I also found it interesting that there are no melanistic gliders. I thought for sure that there would be.
(:


Actually, there are! In the way that creaminos are a form of albinism, black beauties are a form of melanism. I'm sure if someone wanted to, through generations of continually darkening black beauties, the result would be full-blown melanism. Pretty interesting stuff =D

So you want a leu, eh? Good for you! I think you should go for it! People might try to discourage you-- but that's just because theyre jealous =P
_________________________
Connor

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#337987 - 07/13/07 01:46 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
aproductof
Unregistered


Where they first originated, I'm not 100%. I do recall hearing that FFR may have been.
I also recall hearing that the first leu may have been wild caught. As far as I know, the color variations you see are natural, but a predominately white glider isn't going to last long in a plush GREEN forest. I'm sure it's the same as the example I remember seeing in a biology class with the moths who were two different colors. One was seen more often, but after the industrial revolution and the increased soot on trees in the area, the less predominant color became the more dominant one. So if Australia were snow covered, I'm sure that your leus would be the dominant variation...

And as far as mills existing for gliders, you better believe it. They've got everything going for them: reproduce quickly, have a decent price tag ($150 and up), are cute making them great for the impulse buyer, and because they are rodent sized, it's easy to lie about the PROPER care they need!

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#338009 - 07/13/07 01:59 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
Thanks Gina...Thats quite interesting..Didn't mean to hijack your thread vincent....
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate

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#338014 - 07/13/07 02:10 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: MizValorie]
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
Oh, it's alright. I think this is all really really interesting.

I think that purposely breeding to get certain color mutations is wrong unless you know for sure that the parents are completely healthy. /:

I think breeding anything in any way is wrong without knowing the parents are healthy...

It could result in a two headed glider one day.
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

Top
#338040 - 07/13/07 02:26 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
aproductof
Unregistered


As far as I know, breeding for a color isn't unnatural, just selective. What I would personlly consider wrong and unethical would be inbreeding for color, or close line breeding.

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#338041 - 07/13/07 02:27 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
Well... I mean, as with all of these mosaics I keep seeing, if they keep breeding mosaics to mosaics, it appears that they become infertile.

Wouldn't that be considered unnatural? /:
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

Top
#338047 - 07/13/07 02:32 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
aproductof
Unregistered


I think sterility can effect several animals depending on certain situations. Yes, that is seen in mosaic males, however, the females are fertile. I believe it's also been shown that after a few generations, the sterility is often bred out of the line. As far as mosaic to mosaic pairings, I don't know who has them--but I also don't know who breeds for what... I was under the impression that MOST pairings were mosaic with something else, as a means to breed the color out and strengthen the line. You'll also see this in leus--breeding a leu with a gray or white face (or whatever other color), creating hets, and then breeding those out further, thereby creating a larger leu carrying gene pool.

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#338050 - 07/13/07 02:37 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
Gil Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 890
Loc: Orlando
How about a bottle of peroxide in the BML? Would that produce albinos? I would use chlorine, but it's too much acid. How about pool chlorine in the Glider-aid?

I could see the selfish nature of breeding specific types to obtain a desired specimen. I wonder how the human mind works when the arrangement does not produce the desired result. Would the little innocent joey be looked as a failed experiment and potentially not receive all the love an attention? Perhaps he would be donated to who ever wants him and as soon as possible to make room for another attempt. (I hear myself very critical and cynical on my comments but I don't mean to be judgmental)
_________________________
Die worn out instead of rust out!
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#338052 - 07/13/07 02:39 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Vincent]
dquaife
Unregistered


Vincent, as far as your question about why albino gerbils are unhealthy or have a shorter lifespan -- I'm no geneticist first off... but I read recently about people breeding dwarf cats. They look like normal cats in all features except for their legs which are much shorter than that of a normal cat. They found that the gene that effected leg length also effects the heart. So some genes can effect more than one trait basically. I am wondering if the same is true in gliders. Perhaps the gene that effects pigmentation also effects something else a bit more vital to the survival of the glider?

Daniel

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#338064 - 07/13/07 02:51 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: Gil]
MrsKing
Unregistered


Back up a bunch of posts, I said Leu's have black features. I didn't mean black fur. I know they don't have that haha. Just wanted to let you all know that.

I've always been led to think Albinos have health issues too but I could be wrong.

Breeding specifically for color is "desirable" by many but I think it's wrong. It reminds me of the whole "designer dog breed" thing we have going on in today's world with "Puggle, Labradoodle, Goldendoodle, Cockapoo"... It's not a NEW breed, it's just two different breeds mushed together and most of them are ugly anyways haha. Oh my god puggles are gross looking and completely obnoxious and I can say that because I work with 4! Urghh. What is this world coming to??

It's not a BREED until there are breed regulations and specifics. You could cross a beagle and a pug 10x and the results could look nothing alike. How is that a breed exactly?

I think the same thing relates to gliders in a way because by 'selective breeding', we are just harnessing the traits we find to be visually pleasing which is quite selfish. Lot's of diseases and health issues are genetic.

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#338086 - 07/13/07 03:12 PM Re: Would this create an albino? [Re: ]
Vincent Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 98
Loc: Minnesota
So in reality, the healthiest glider there is is most likely a grey one?

I mean, selective breeding is cute and all, but did you know that white tigers don't exist?

Lol some people will misinterpret that, what I mean is that no breed of tiger on this planet is naturally white. The white tiger was created by inbreeding one litter of four cubs over and over and over again. The white tigers we have today are slightly stupider three times as likely to attack than the standard red or orange. As a matter of fact, those two fellas with the tiger show had quite a few white tigers and the tiger that attacked one of them happened to be white.

There are probably enough gliders out there to breed them safely, especially since many people keep records of their gliders parents and grandparents to prevent accidental inbreeding, but it still sounds like there could be some major genetic defects in certain colors. /:

But I know nothing about it, really...
_________________________
Rollin' with:
Gliders: Cirrus&Stratus,
Rabbit: Ariel,
A whole colony of gerbils,
& My year old twin sons Braden and Aiden.

RIP:
Nimbus... My first glider.

Top
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