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#34650 - 01/24/05 12:46 AM Inhibiting absorption of excess iron
Anonymous
Unregistered


From what I've seen, it has been noted that there can be a problem with our gliders tending to have an excess of iron. Being that the body does not have a mechanism to rid itself of this excess iron, this is potentially harmful and can lead to liver disease, etc.

Bourbon in another thread mentioned that citrus (because of its vitamin C content) actually helps the absorption of iron, and as such should not be offered with any frequency to gliders. There are other compounds, though, which inhibit the absorption of iron: oxylates, phytates, tannins, and vitamin E... to name a few.

I wonder if perhaps adding more of one or a couple of these compounds might help lower the iron absorption to a point. Now, oxylates also inhibit calcium absorption so I wouldn't go that route, but I'll have to do more research on the other 3 to see what side effects they may have. I know that we supplement wheat germ, and I wonder if perhaps this is because it does have a high vitamin E content? But my gliders always spit out the wheat germ... not sure if others do the same.

Perhaps these compounds may be something worth having a look at. We could add/increase them in our gliders' diets quite easily via either supplementation (wheat germ oil for vitamin E may be better ingested/utilized than dry wheat germ is) or through regular offering of dietary items (pomegranite, figs, and cherries for tannins; or certain grains for phytates).

Currently, my major questions I'll be searching for the answers for are these:

How do these things inhibit the absorption of iron? In what quantity?

Do they also inhibit other heavy metals, ie calcium?

What are other possible side effects that these compounds may have?

I am just beginning to read up on this matter, and admittedly have a LOT to learn about it... but even at this beginning stage of my research I thought I'd throw it out for others to read and comment... anyone know anything about this? Any comments?

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#34651 - 01/24/05 01:36 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I thought I saw Bourbon say on some other thread that if you mix it well in a food processor that it breaks down the wheat germ, so they don't spit it out. Have you tried that? If so and it didn't work, I wonder if there's something else that could be done so they don't spit it out?

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#34652 - 01/24/05 02:16 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My gliders won't eat the BML if there's wheat germ in it.......I'm not sure why <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />, but I've tried different ways of mixing the BML and every time there's wheat germ in it, they all refuse to eat it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />. Needless to say, I make mine without the wheat germ cause it's the only way to get my little fuz butts to eat it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sam

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#34653 - 01/24/05 02:19 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good question <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I personally avoid using things which feature added vitamin C or it's alias, ascorbic acid, which is probably good in relation to this iron thing. Most apple juices add Vitamin C and most applesauces use it as well
.
My main reason for avoiding it is that it gives my gliders diarrhea, lol. Not too much fun cleaning wodent wheels after I decided to feed too much acidic food.....ick! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

One thing I noticed was that you said tannins inhibit the absorption of iron. The gum of the Acacia Mearnsii tree contains a good amount of tannins and is higher in tannins than other acacia gums like that from Acacia Senegal. That is pretty much the only significant difference that I've found. I've got to check and see where I read about this.... Its something worth thinking about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#34654 - 01/24/05 04:21 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] The one thought that comes immediately to mind is since no one really knows exactly how much iron a glider needs and no one, to my knowledge, gives their gliders regular blood test to check their iron level, whats the point of looking for items that will reduce iron. For all one knows, a glider could have a perfectly normal iron level and be harmed by low iron levels when feed a diet with items that reduce or inhibit iron. Seems to me we are getting the cart before the horse in worring about reducing iron until we know what proper levels are and find a way to easily monitor them. [/]

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#34655 - 01/24/05 04:50 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I have to agree with Randy to a point. Natalie you mentioned the wheat germ as an inhibitor of iron. Even though the wheat germ contains vit E it is considered one of the better sources for adding iron to the diet. Calcium is an iron inhibitor and because the BML is high in calcium I wouldn't think that the amount of iron in the BML diet would be on the high side. If it is found to be too rich in iron I would think that eliminating the wheat germ would bring it back into the proper range. The iron in the wheat germ is non-heme iron which is more readily absorbed by the body and eliminating the wheat germ would greatly reduce the iron intake in the BML diet. I am not sure what effects removing the wheat germ would have on the overall balance of the diet. This can get very complicated. If iron inhibitors are added to the diet one must consider their interactions with all the other elements of the diet besides just iron. Vitamin C enhances the absorbtion of iron so adding citrus fruits or juices to a gliders diet as one of the newer diets does could be very harmful to the gliders.
Charlie H


Edited by Charlie H (01/24/05 05:41 AM)
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#34656 - 01/24/05 04:55 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....I thought I saw Bourbon say on some other thread that if you mix it well in a food processor that it breaks down the wheat germ, so they don't spit it out.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


[:"blue"] Don't know if Bourbon has ever posted on this subject; but I have.....several times. I use a blender, not a food processor. I think the higher speed of the blender would do a better job of pulverizing the wheatgerm than would the food processor. For me, modifying the mixing procedure to better chop up the wheatgerm has made a big difference....reduced the "half moons" to almost zero. Others have used my method with some seeing a good result and others not seeing any at all. I can't explain the variable result unless some folks really weren't chopping up the wheatgerm like they thought they were???? [/]

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#34657 - 01/24/05 09:29 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


While, admittedly, I have not had my gliders in for blood tests to see if their iron levels are elevated... I got this idea from 2 sources.

First, from the diet study which is set to be published this year. The results were presented at last year's SGGA, and I was able to get a rundown of that from folks who attended. An excerpt from a post on that subject: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It appears that the iron levels in all three sets of gliders were elevated during the study, on all the diet plans. From what is known about other mammalian needs, specifically other marsupials, the diets MAY contain higher iron levels than they need or can absorb.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

My next source is posts from Bourbon:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Due to the higher incidences of liver problems, and the fears of iron toxicity in the liver, please, please everyone note, that feeding the axras that are high in iron may also pose a problem

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I've also seen several folks mention that grapes shouldn't be fed regularly because of an excess of iron in them.

Now, while neither of these are definitive (although the study done will be an excellent resource once they actually publish it!), they are enough to get me thinking. So I went back and looked at the results of the Death Database. We are seeing quite a bit of liver damage!

As far as the spitouts... I do run the wheat germ through my handy little MiniChopper before putting it in... I still get spit outs. I also get chicken spitouts, veggie spitouts, apple spitouts.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> My gliders are little stinkers! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I didn't say wheat germ itself is an inhibitor, but rather the vitamin E in it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also please note: I'm not saying I'm proposing changes to diets, or that something is wrong, or anything else... I'm simply reading and learning about an idea, and sharing that research with others for comment. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

AFTER the study is published, AFTER we can see the results (how high are those levels, anyway?), IF Bourbon (and my vet) were to give me the ok to try adding more tannin-rich foods to their diet... only then MIGHT I make a change. I would only do so with regular blood testing though (good thing I'm starting a new, better paying job soon... lol).


Edited by Natalie (01/24/05 09:37 AM)

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#34658 - 01/24/05 01:09 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
I am not convienced that they are spitting out the wheat germ as they masticate thier food and getting the nutritents out and then spitting out what is either not needed or just thier way of getting rid of the "bulk". Bruce has looked under the microcope to try and identify what is in the "spit" and can find no sign of any particular ingreadents.

As far a a blood level of iron, we don't have what a gliders normal blood level of iron or for that matter anything else. I know that it has been said and I think put on the board that someone establised normal levels. But if thats the case then I would like to know who and HOW they did that. You have to have a very healthy glider and the blood draw would have to be about 2cc which is almost what they have in thier whole body. It could kill a glider. We learned this during the studies.

My feeling about the iron is NOT what the BML is calling for but what folks are feeding that is high in iron. Like broccllie, spinich, and other high iron treats and veggies and fruit. Of all the gliders I have lost and all the necropsys Bruce has read when we question the owner as to what they are feeding the food is high in iron. But it's hard to think about that when you give them the same veeggies day after day. What is offered in the BML for veggies is NOT high in iron. Mine eat the same every night and only fruits are changed and they stay pretty much in the melon and apple or pear family. Non of our gliders have ever shown any iron in the liver on H&E reports. Now I am not saying that other diets show iron either. But between my vet and Bruce and Dr.D. it is possible that it is the exta or rather the food that is not counted or watched for iron content. The baby food does have more iron than we would like to see but less than the high iron that we can't get in the U.S.

True they do hold on to the iron and it will effect the liver.

I would love to find out what you find about the other ingrediants that you have mentioned.

I have spoken more about the BML as that is what I use and have done more study on. I don't know about free feeding diets or anyother.
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#34659 - 01/24/05 01:58 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ellen,
I don't mean to dispute what you are saying, but I am curious as to why you say that it would take 2cc of bld to do an iron test. I am a Licenced MLT, but have chosen to be a stay at home mom for now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> So there for I am not currently working in the field. But I have never known of having to have such an amount to run an iron level before. Like I said, I am not disputing anything that you have said, I was just wondering where you got the info. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />
Thanks,

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#34660 - 01/24/05 02:15 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmmm... Interesting...

Perhaps maybe that amount is required for a complete test for other things, i.e. blood glucose levels, electrolytes, waste products, enzymes, proteins, blood fats, minerals like Cal and Phos, thyroid, glycohemoglobin, CBC, etc.

Felicityssugarmom, are you suggesting that if you're only testing for iron (in humans anyway), then it usually requires less blood that 2 cc?

Mikey

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#34661 - 01/24/05 02:32 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmmm... so maybe that's one of the main reasons B is so adamant about which fruits and veggies to offer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

I should mention... that many times when I have a question or concern like this, it's not my gliders who I've raised their whole lives who I'm worrying about. I follow the BML plan to the letter -- down to the veggies and fruits to offer. The ones I tend to worry about are my rescues (2 more comin' this week)... who've been on a hodge-podge of things at best... many of them have various infections when I get them, which makes me worry about their organ functions because there's no way to know how long they've been harboring these infections.

I took in a "2nd hand parrot" a bit over a year ago. He had been on a seed-only diet for the previous 5 years. His beak was flaky and weak, his feathers were brittle and dull, etc. My avian vet ran a whole panel of tests on him and said his liver function wasn't what it should be. We changed his diet, of course, and she instructed me to give him fresh wheat grass twice a week... said it would help clean out his liver. We had the tests run again a couple months ago, and he's functioning a ton better. But, that could be a result of the diet change, the wheat grass, or both... since they were done concurrently there's no way to know.

I mention this as an example of the damage many "rescue" animals may have already sustained. My vet said that aside from their mental issues and malnutrition... one of her biggest concerns when she sees an animal from a poor background is its liver. So I guess I'm just reading and learning to see if there's anything we can safely do to try to help these critters get that healthy function back.

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#34662 - 01/24/05 05:07 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I feel pretty far out of my league even posting in this conversation, but I thought I may be able to point out to you guys another "keyword" to look for when researching iron absorption and high or low iron containing food and its efffects on the liver and other organs. The word is hemochromotosis. My husband has this, so reading about the Vit. C and tannins, etc. was very familiar to me. Also, one of the main ways they monitor whether there is damage from the high iron in his blood is by doing liver studies. So I wonder if gliders may either be prone to hemochromotosis or at least if the way their bodies behave with iron mimics hemochromotosis in humans. Just a thought.

Also, I had noticed the spit-outs with the BML. I thought it was just like what she does with apples and most other foods, sucking out the liquid and dumping the rest. But I did think it was weird because the BML seemed to be almost all liquid, so I was surprised there was anything to spit out. Then I saw in another post that someone mentioned their glider spitting out the wheat germ from the BML and I wondered how they knew that was the part they were spitting out. It's interesting now to see that you guys are out there looking at the half-moons under a microscope to find out. Y'all are so dedicated and thorough in your quest for information about diets! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#34663 - 01/24/05 06:40 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Sorry to be so late in responding.
The 2 cc's is for a complete panale. But to get the iron the labs have told us they would need more than just a drop or small amount of blood. I don't know from what I have been told that a lab, at least the ones I have talked to which are many by the way are set up for the small amount of blood to do testing. However, I have been told of a start up lab that may have the instruments to do smaller than 2cc. Maybe 1cc and even that the volume that would have to be replaced is scary. Most vet's that I have talked to either won't or very leary of loosing that much volume even with replacement. So it is maily the labs that are not set up for this. And even if they are where are we going to get what we know is a REALLY healthy glider for base line? We would have to have a number of gliders to establish any kind of a good base line for any of the test. So far no one has come forward to want to risk thier gliders life for this. Plus the money it cost for the labs are very high. VERY HIGH.

As for the gliders that are rescused, many years ago when we first started getting gliders the diets that they were on were your worst nighmare. And as the diets improved so did the gliders. But that doesnt mean damanage was not already done, just that we may have been able to give more of a life span by changing diets.

One necropsy that I was in on showed changes for the BETTER in the liver. The diet had been changed about a year before the glider died. But you could see the regeneration of the liver. It was hopeful.

We can't give up the hope that by taking in the ones that have not been on a premo diet that we can help give better life and health for them. The fact that so many folks are now finially questioning and posting and doing thier own research and sharing it is wonderful.

There is so much we don't know about the way gliders REALLY react to food as far as absorbing what they need and storing what they don't is something I would like to see more work on. This is going to cost MONEY. Alot of it.

It has taken so long for dogs and cats to finially have what we think is a good diet and yet they are still having dietary problemes at necropsy.

Wow! I got on a tear, sorry, but this is a subject very close to my heart.
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#34664 - 01/25/05 12:48 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You are right Ellen, I don't know of anyone that would be willing to risk the health or life of their glider to do research. I know that I sure wouldn't. However, if a glider were to die from an acident rather than an illness, maybe test could be done that way. Kinda like humans donating their bodies to science once they are deceased. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" /> Even then it would be hard on some of us to give them up. But it is a thought.
As far as the amount of bld needed to do a complete profile, I can see that. I am sorry that I misunderstood. As we all know, with time, there will be so many new and improved areas in the medical field. Hopefully someday, their will be lab equipment designed to test many levels on just a drop of blood. Until then, we have to be careful with our testing on such small animals.
Another thought. I wonder if there are any grants available for research on exotic animals. If anyone has experience in grant proposals, then maybe they would be willing to check into this. If so, then maybe a study could be done on one element at a time until we could have a baseline for all the info that we are lacking. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> Like I mentioned before, this is just a thought. Would like to hear what others might think of this or if any of this has been concidered in the past.

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#34665 - 01/25/05 04:05 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Do they also inhibit other heavy metals, ie calcium?


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually, calcium is NOT a heavy metal. A heavy metal is described as a metallic element with a specific gravity 5 or more times that of water. The heavy metals are: antimony, arsenic, bismuth, cadmium, cerium, chromium, cobalt, copper, gallium, gold, iron, lead, manganese, mercury, nickel, platinum, silver, tellurium, thallium, tin, uranium, vanadium, and zinc. Many of these can cause what is called Heavy Metal Poisoning, which include antimony, arsenic, cadmium, lead, and mercury.
Calcium, a soft, silver white metallic chemical element, has a specific gravity of 1.55, compared to say, lead-specific gravity 11.344, cadmium, sp. gr 8.642, or mercury, sp. gr. 13.594. So while it is a metallic element, it is not a heavy metal.
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#34666 - 01/25/05 04:22 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You're right... "heavy" wasn't the word I was looking for...

I was looking for... hmmm... oh geez... I think I'm gonna have to go dig up a chem textbook in the morning, for the life of me I can't think of the word I'm looking for...

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#34667 - 01/25/05 04:27 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's ok Natalie. You probably meant alkaline earth metal, right? That's the elemental group it belongs to. It's also considered a mineral.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#34668 - 01/25/05 04:43 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lol... perhaps so... I think probably I should have left it at "metals", but the whole name technicality is beside the point anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The point of my question was to find out if iron is affected, is zinc? Is calcium? Etc, etc... My reading so far is saying "yes and yes", but I'm not far enough into my research yet to say that definitively.

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#34669 - 01/25/05 12:21 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
I have 3 grants sitting out there waiting for an answer. This is taking a long time. They don't seem to be in an hurry to make a decision. I have written to them several times to check on it but "it is still with the committe". They are each around 25,000.00. The last grant I applied for was only for 2,500.00 and we got turned down. They said it went to a more "popular" cause. IF we can get the grants then I think I have a Zoo that would do all the studies for gliders for 1 to 2 years. They have the right staff to do it with. But they won't even look at us until we have the money.

But I am still looking for grants to be had. I would think this time of year they would start putting them out.
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#34670 - 01/25/05 11:05 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a couple of comments regards to blood tests --

I know that special equipment is made to test extremely small amounts of blood. It is marketed to vets for blood work on birds. I looked and can't find the link again, but I found it last year when Ozzy was sick -- but, if money, etc. was available, that type of equipment might work to establish normal blood ranges for gliders (of course that still wouldn't do much good, since not every local vet would have the desire and/or finances for such specialized equipment to run tests on our gliders.)

As for Iron testing -- If any of you give blood regularly, they sometimes spin your blood and give a hematocrit reading using a very small sample, is this concept practical for gliders? Of course my local Red Cross would freak out if I brought our gliders in and asked them to spin their blood!

~Lynn

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#34671 - 01/25/05 11:14 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I live less than a mile from one of the best vet hospitals in the country (the CSU Veterinary Teaching Hospital)... they are the ones who do my blood work for my parrot, but I don't know how much they take each time. I do know that when I had Francis in there for his exam by the opthamologist, he told me their facility is equipped to handle pretty much anything I would ever want to do for the little guy.

I'll see if I can find out tomorrow how much they would need for this test... for curiosity's sake if nothing else.

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#34672 - 01/25/05 11:20 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Good thoughts there.
But the test for hematocrit is used to see how many red blood cells you have or rather if they are too high or low. That wouldn't work on iron. Iron has to be stained on a slide to usually see it. When they run blood for iron it is done in a much different mannor that requiers the equipment I spoke of earlier.

I spoke with our local lab here and the Pathologist and she said they were in no way set up to run a true iron count on a glider. Most of the time iron is seen is in necropsy and the slides are stained and they turn green.
I will follow up on the new lab and see what they say.

Again, we will need more than one glider and probably many more to get a basic iron count. And they should be done at the same lab to have the instruiments calabrated the same way given the same values.

To use a pipet to get blood for more than a hematocrit would be wonderful.

I will keep trying.
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#34673 - 01/26/05 12:03 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Seems maybe this isn't something that will be able to be accomplished... in the near future anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" /> I would be happy to pay for a couple or a few of mine to be tested (as long as it wasn't very dangerous for them)... but then there's still the problem of the calibration. I hadn't thought of that. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Ellen... thank you for everything you put in to trying to get the grants, the studies done, etc... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

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#34674 - 01/26/05 12:11 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
We arent really back to the drawing board. We are moving ahead. With all the info that has been exchanged in this thread we now have more to go on and ask our vets. I will do more with the labs and see what we can do.

I never like to feel that we have taken a step backwards I really like to look forward and more answers. IT just takes alot ot time on the phone talking to Labs and many different vets.

Natlie we wont stop. Not with the blood or anythng that can better the health and comfort of the glider.
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#34675 - 01/26/05 12:16 AM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'll give a call to the lab here tomorrow and see what I can find out. If the calibration thing is a problem, I wonder if there would be some way to transport/ship samples all to one lab for testing, without the transport altering the samples.

Since all of the gliders who would be tested are obviously being fed captive diets... if, in fact, iron content IS a problem, that would make our baseline high as well. How is one to know what a healthy level is? Any ideas or opinions?

Also, I'll see if I can get someone at the VTH to tell me what they would consider a healthy level for a marsupial... just to see how many differing opinions we get on that.

Was there blood drawn in the diet study that was done? I'm assuming so, but don't know for sure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Since she felt they were high, what did she think they should be? (I really wish I had been there to hear the presentation! Please excuse all my questions about it.)


Edited by Natalie (01/26/05 09:12 AM)

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#34676 - 01/26/05 12:59 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
I wasn't privy to what all went on in the studies. So I don't know.

Let us know what you find out.
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#34677 - 01/26/05 01:34 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
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Ellen,
If there is ever anything that I can do to help, please let me know. In the mean time, I will try to do a little research and see if I can find a grant in my area that might help in the research of these lil guys and gals.
Also as Natalie said, THANK YOU for all that you do to try to help our little furbutt friends.

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#34678 - 01/26/05 10:37 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
OK! My eyes are crossed and my ears hurt from looking into this today. But I did find out a few things we might be able to start on.

One is that to do JUST an iron level with blood would PROBABLY only take a small amout (according which lab you use) the next one is a little more complicated. To truly find out how much iron is being retained it should come from a tissue sample. To put all that I have talked about and read today (got into Bruces books too lol) A blood level will not tell us the iron retention level. As I said it would have to come from tissue of the glider. Now that brings us to WHAT tissue? A couple of Pathologist suggested a needle biopsy of the pancrease or the liver (not on my glders)3 vets said they could remove a small amt of skin and have it sent to the lab for absorbtion. They all said just a blood level of iron would tell us nothing about the amount asorbed.

Also the Path's and vet's and looking over Bruce's H&E reports there is a smaller amnout than we think of iron showing on Necropsy. But even those are too much.

Most agreeded that it was diet related and most of the ones I have found in Bruce's files the diets were bad and they were given veggies that were high in iron and also feed alot of "people food" for treats and such. There was not one specific diet that stood out for iron.

So this has spurred me on to keep talking and reading. I am going Sat. to our local vet Path's office and she said she would open her files to me.

So this is a start UH? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />
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#34679 - 01/26/05 11:00 PM Re: Inhibiting absorption of excess iron [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
One is that to do JUST an iron level with blood would PROBABLY only take a small amout (according which lab you use) the next one is a little more complicated. To truly find out how much iron is being retained it should come from a tissue sample. To put all that I have talked about and read today (got into Bruces books too lol) A blood level will not tell us the iron retention level. As I said it would have to come from tissue of the glider. Now that brings us to WHAT tissue? A couple of Pathologist suggested a needle biopsy of the pancrease or the liver (not on my glders)3 vets said they could remove a small amt of skin and have it sent to the lab for absorbtion. They all said just a blood level of iron would tell us nothing about the amount asorbed.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Did they mention if an epithelial tissue scraping sampled from the inside of the mouth would be too little of a tissue sample to use for testing iron levels? If not, that way you could obtain tissue without any excessive bleeding. Just wondering...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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