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#34749 - 01/24/05 10:13 PM Leucistic hets
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] [/] What are Leucistic hets? Is that some sort of breed mix? Also does anybody have any pics of what a Leucistic/Grey glider would look like? Or at least a description of color? I would eventually like to get my little grey a partner, and really like what Leucistic gliders look like. So seeing as how he's a boy I have to get a girl <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Anyways lemme know what ya think of the idea. Thanks a lot!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#34750 - 01/24/05 10:20 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


a leucistic het will look just like any other grey

in order to get a leucistic you would need to breed to hets or a het w/ a leucistic

het means heterozygous; a het means that the glider has had a leucistic parent and a het, or grey parent... if the glider is from a leucistic and a het, and it is grey it is a het for the leucistic trait (has 1 leucistic allele and 1 grey allele); the leucistic w/ a regular grey means it will also be a het

since yours is a grey there is no way to breed a leucistic glider from him

I could try and explain this better, but it's hard.. sorry lol

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#34751 - 01/24/05 10:25 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"blue"] [/] What are Leucistic hets Is that some sort of breed mix? Also does anybody have any pics of what a Leucistic/Grey glider would look like? Or at least a description of color? I would eventually like to get my little grey a partner, and really like what Leucistic gliders look like. So seeing as how he's a boy I have to get a girl <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Anyways lemme know what ya think of the idea. Thanks a lot!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Well first of all you could have 2 males together. So you wouldn't need to get a female. Secondly leucistics and/ or hets are very expensive. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

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#34752 - 01/24/05 10:28 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That is one of the most confussing things i think i've ever heard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />! lol. Would it be possible for you to give me a little bit of an explination as to why my greys can't breed leucistics <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />? Thanks

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#34753 - 01/24/05 10:32 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Het is like having the gene for it. They aren't leucistic, but their babies could be if they are bred right. Kind of like with dogs, if you breed two pure black labs, you'll get a black lab. If you start mixing chocolate and black labs, you may get one or the other, depending on which gene is stronger, and what traits both parents have.

Your greys probably don't have the leucistic background, therefore they can't have leucistic babies.

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#34754 - 01/24/05 10:40 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
A het for leucistic is a glider that had a white parent but looks like it's grey parent. Two greys that do not have atleast one leucistic parent (one leucistic parent=het for leucistic)won't produce leucistic joeys. Now if your grey has a leucistic parent then it IS het for leucistic and if paired with another het there is a chance for leucistic offspring.

I think I have that right.
_________________________
620-704-9109
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But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#34755 - 01/24/05 10:41 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Having Leucistic bb's isn't that important as long as they can have some kind, be it grey or leucistic or whatever.

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#34756 - 01/24/05 10:44 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Faierie might have done a better job explaining it... I forget most people are not as geeky as I am... lol

she's right... it's like w/ people's eye color... everyone has 2 alleles that affect their eye color (one allele from each parent) the brown eye color is dominant or stronger so that if you have the brown allele you will have brown eyes, if you have 1 brown and 1 blue allele, your eyes will still be brown (the blue allele is called recessive and you would need both blue alleles to have blue eyes)

a het would have 1 blue, 1 brown allele and have a brown eye color (like a leucistic het looking like any regular grey)

unless your grey had a leucistic parent (which have 2 leucistic alleles and passes 1 to the young) it cannot have a leucistic baby because it has 2 grey alleles and would pass 1 of those onto the baby (the grey allele, like the brown eye color allele, is dominant)

hope that helps... I know Faierie made it sound much easier, but I figured this might help you to understand what I posted before! I don't want to be some rambling looney that no1 can understand!

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#34757 - 01/24/05 10:46 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


There are some good color examples at The Pet Glider.

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#34758 - 01/24/05 10:50 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


leucistic hets cost about $1000. Unless you are planning on pairing a leucitic het with another glider with leucistic genes, it's kind of a waist of money because you have almost no chance of producing a leucistic. I would recommend a WFB. They are much easier to get a hold of, cost $400-$500 and when breed with a normal colored glider they still produce WFB's over 50% of the time...

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#34759 - 01/24/05 10:51 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> LOL I am probably far geekier than you, Faery. I write computer code for a living, and a hobby, and even met my bf of 2 years on Yahoo personals with an ad specifically asking for a geek guy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> If you are geekier than me that I will definitely bow to your greatness, though! (I did work tech support on the phones once, and boy oh boy did I learn to break geek speak down!)

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#34760 - 01/24/05 10:55 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> man; everyone else knows how to be succinct <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" /> ... I must work on that... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />

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#34761 - 01/24/05 10:57 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> lol Faierie, you take the computer geek throne, and I'll take the biology one!

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#34762 - 01/24/05 11:21 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL. Seems this het stuff pops up so frequently...

I loved genetics. Yea, Faery definitely explained it... I had some people say they understood the concept in a previous post when I last attempted to tackle the explanation of the genetics...

All traits determined by DNA are generally either dominant or recessive. Examples of dominant traits are straight hair, dark hair, dark eyes, the presence of a widow's peak, free ear lobes, the ability to curl your tongue in the shape of a "u". Examples of recessive traits are curly hair, light hair, light eyes, the absence of a widow's peak, the absence of ear lobes, the inability to curl your tongue in the shape of a "u".

Faery brought up the example of eye colour. Brown eyes in humans are caused by a dominant allele (trait expressed through a gene) and blue eyes are caused by a recessive allele. So basically, when two people have kids, half of the father's genes and half of the mother's genes go into the composition of the kid's DNA makeup. Theoretically, because the allele for brown eyes is 'dominant' you only need one 'brown eye' allele from either the mom or the dad for the child to have brown eyes. Even if one of the parents pass on a 'blue eye' allele to the child, the blue eyes (usually) don't occur because the dominant 'brown eye' allele from the other parent supercedes the recessive 'blue eye' allele, so the 'blue eye' allele remains hidden in the DNA of the child. This means then, that you need both parents to pass on a 'blue eye' allele to the child (one from the mom and one from the dad) in order for the child to have blue eyes.

So in reference to a heterozygote, often, you have two human parents with brown eyes that give birth to children with blue eyes, that is caused by a hidden recessive "blue eyes" allele in both parents that carries onto the kids and causes the child to be blue eyed. The parents are said to be heterozygous for blue eyes.

Applying to gliders then, the standard grey colour in gliders is caused by a dominant gene and any other colour phase like leucistic or cinnamon is generally recessive. Hypothetically, when a standard grey glider mates with a leucistic glider, for example, you often have young that turn out to be standard greys, but with examination of the youngsters' DNA you would discover that most of the joeys (if not all) turn out to be heterozygous for the recessive leucistic colour gene. It's just hidden and not expressed.

The reason why hets are great keeps is because though certain colour phases like leucistic may be more difficult to find at some times, more often breeders will have all these hets available for sale and once hets (i.e. standard grey gliders carrying a hidden colour in its DNA) are mated with other hets the chances of getting the fully different colour phase in the joeys are much, much higher than if you mated 2 normal, homozygous (the opposite of heterozygous)standard greys!

I hope that may have cleared things up... or pahaps it confused you even more... lol I hope not... This genetics stuff can get really complicated...

In the case of the leucistic trait, for example, there are other issues that more than likely apply to the phenotype like incomplete dominance, the multiple allele factor, as well as a series of others (actually, I'm almost certain the leucistic phenotype is much more complicated than the basic dominant/recessive model, seeing as the percentages of the outcome of leucistic young generally don't follow the basic Punnet Square percentages outlined by a standard dominant/recessive model). Generally, the leucistic phase isn't completely understood as of yet in regards to the science of the genetics. All we can do at this point is make inferences from the observation of breedings.

Hope this may have answered your questions Canadian Glider GUY!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#34763 - 01/24/05 11:34 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


lol Mikey! you went even more indepth than I did...

since your a genetics person too; do you remember the difference between co-dominance and blending? I've been trying to remember, but my old bio book is at home and I'm here, lol!

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#34764 - 01/24/05 11:52 PM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Co-dominance and blending...

Yes co-dominance. A good example of that is found in the genetics determining human blood type. Sometimes two alleles at a locus produce 2 different phenotypes that both appear in heterozygotes. It's evident in the human blood group system ABO in humans. One allele of the gene determines the A blood type and another determines the B blood type. When both alleles are present (heterozygous) then both are expressed, meaning the AB bloodtype occurs, and proteins produced by both alleles occur in the blood.

It relates to one of the things I did mention - incomplete dominance.

More often dominant genes aren't so basic. There's a genteic principle called incomplete dominance which is the condition in which the hetrozygous phenotype is intermediate between the two homozygous phenotypes. In other words, some genes have alleles that are not dominant and recessive to eachother and instead, the heterozygotes show an intermediate phenotype. I remember we used to use the example of snap dragon flowers in university.

If a true-breeding red snap dragon is cross bred with a true-breeding white one, all the next generation of flowers will be pink. So as in this example, when the heterozygous phenotype is intermediate, the gene is said to be governed by incomplete dominance.

Perhaps this is why the eye colour example isn't a completely accurate example of the basic dominant/recessive model because we do have intermediate colours other than blue and brown, like green, grey, hazel, etc and it's an example of incomplete dominance. I think from now on I'm going to use the rolling "U" tongue example or the widow's peak example when explaining dominance/recession/heterozygotes... lol. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

In regards to blending, I'm not sure exactly what that is but I think it's perhaps another term for the other thing I mentioned which was multiple alleles. More often some traits will incorporate more than two alleles of a given gene. An example of this would be in the fruit fly (Oh, how we loved studying Drosphila sp. in genetics... NOT! So boring and monotonous...) and in particular the fruit fly's eye colour. In the fruit fly many alleles (not only two) at one locus affect eye colour by determining the amount of pigment produced. The outcome of the exact eye colour in the fruit fly is determined by which two alleles are inherited from the parents. Perhaps that is the same as your terminology of blending.


Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#34765 - 01/25/05 03:51 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Now that we have covered all the theory of breeding for color I would like to know how many have ever bred het to het and gotten joeys that were colored.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
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#34766 - 01/25/05 04:20 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


When two leu. hets are bred together the babies have a 25% chance of being leucisitc, 50% leu. het, and 25% normal. Unfortunately I have no results to back this up (I own all greys), only statistics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Is blending due to "crossing over" during meiosis?

This is a little off topic, but since we were discussing genetics have any of you heard of a precursor ? I was thinking this may apply to the platinum coloring (or maybe not, just a hypothesis <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ).

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> Is it ok if I am the chemistry geek?

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#34767 - 01/25/05 04:37 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL Yes. The chem geek is completely you Squirrel! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Her Squirrel, I wanted to know how you determined this or where you may have read it?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
25% chance of being leucisitc, 50% leu. het, and 25% normal

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

From what I've been reading around these forums and in other references, as I mentioned in my previous post, that the leucistic trait doesn't follow the basic dominant/recessive model and thus the ratio (or percentages)of 1:2:1 (leucistic:het:standard) or in other words 25%:50%:25%. That's why I am almost certain that other genetic factors come into play (i.e. multiple alleles, incomplete dominance, etc.) Someone even suggested that she noticed that there was a sexually-related trend in the lighter colour phases so perhaps it could be a sex-linked gene plus any or none fo the above factors.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#34768 - 01/25/05 04:42 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It sounds like you know more about the leu. gene than I do, I was just thinking it was only recessive. What colors were possibly sex-related?

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#34769 - 01/25/05 04:54 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Does anyone even have a large enough sample size to produce a good ratio for leu. breeding? Or for any other color for that matter. Sheila is in the progress of making a genetic database for her breedings. Its a great idea.

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#34770 - 01/25/05 04:54 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, I have read that white-faced blondes, leucistics, and perhaps platinum are traits which may be influenced by a sex-linked gene... now I say "influenced" as opposed to "determined" because if it were dtermined by a sex-linked gene, it would be consistent and all the members of the particular colour phase would be the same sex. However, because the lady mentioned that she noticed that more often a particular colour phase (I believe it was either white-tip tail or white-faced blond) occured more often in males than females, but still did commonly occur in females, then that gives us reason to believe that perhaps the trait is influenced by a sex-linked gene but not completely detrmined by it (again, perhaps resulting from a combination of other genes located on a different choromose or other genetic factors like incomplete dominance or multiple alleles).

In regards to this:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Does anyone even have a large enough sample size to produce a good ratio for leu. breeding? Or for any other color for that matter.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The percentages are merely average probability figures which can be calculated through Medellian theory (punnet squares, etc) but the nature of the phenotype must first be known in order to obtain those averages. In other words, if it's the simple dominant/recessive trait, then the Medellian theory model indicates that the offspring will be in the ratio of approximately 1:2:1 for homozygous dominant:heterozygous:homozygous recessive. It gets trickier though with the more complex phenotypes, and I'd imagine calculating percentages of the leucistic phenotype would fall under such a category. This is why Sheila's documents of her leucistics will prove invaluable to breeders all over! I think it's great!

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#34771 - 01/25/05 05:00 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


We posted at the same time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Did you read about the precursor I linked to? There are other types of precursors, but I'm pretty sure they all have the same ratios (I need to dig my genetics stuff out again). For the white-tip to be sex-related it kind of makes sense, but I wonder if the allele is carried on the x or y chromosome?

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#34772 - 01/25/05 05:05 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes... I also wonder that...

I'm not going to even attempt tackle that whole precursor issue this late in the morning. It was one of the most boring and complex sections of biochem ever. LOL. I'll definitely look into it though...

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#34773 - 01/25/05 05:11 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yet again I need to dig out my genetics stuff to be sure as well. I gotta go to bed, Good Night! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#34774 - 01/25/05 05:14 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh, i took a look at it Squirrel, and that "precursor" concept that you posted is a description of Medellian's law of independent assortment (and in our case) as it relates to the multiple allele factor that I mentioned or any other genetic factors that may be... in which case yes, it may pertain to the platinum phase, and also the leucistic, wfb, white tip, and buttercream phases, as well as others. I thought you were referring to something else when you mentioned "precursors"... something totally different and metabolically/hormonally related.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#34775 - 01/25/05 05:31 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mikey, I think you a refering to a post I made when you were talking about WFB and WT being sex linked. There seems to be a much higher percentage of males produced than females when breeding WFB's to normals and WT males seem to pop up more than WT female even though there are females of both variations.

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#34776 - 01/25/05 05:38 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ah-ha... Thanks Leyna. If that's the case, then as mentioned it's more than likely a sex-linked gene that influences those particular colour phenotypes... and perhaps even others like leucistic and platinum. I feel it may be even more complex than that, though. *banging head against wall at 6:40 AM in the morning thinking about genetics*

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> I don't mean this literally but I would kill for even a leucistic or platinum het! Who knows what I'd do if I knew someone who owned a full leucistic or a platinum glider. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" /> I'd choose one over a car in a heartbeat! I drool over all these pictures from people owning gliders of different colour phases, but my favourite colour will always be the standard grey.

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#34777 - 01/25/05 11:12 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I bow to the geeky-greatness of Faery & Squirrle (there was no bowing emote)

And great question, Charlie! I kind of wondered that myself - how proven are the het statistics?

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#34778 - 01/25/05 11:18 AM Re: Leucistic hets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mike Sandridge (sp) of Sandman Sugar Gliders has produced WFB's from 2 hets. Also, leucistics have been produced by 2 hets for leucistic (Sheila's Saleen, Larissa, and I think BabyDevilsAngel's Glacie were all from het/het pairs)

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