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#352882 - 08/02/07 05:42 PM Why all the breeding ??? Part 2
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Here is part one the begining
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#352885 - 08/02/07 05:43 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Thanks Eddie... smile
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#352886 - 08/02/07 05:45 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
wink Thank you to everyone keeping this civil and respecting everyones views and beliefs laugh
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#352906 - 08/02/07 06:17 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79]
AngieH
Unregistered


There is nothing un-natural about neutering.. the humane society puts out a very good article called, " if you thought teaching your children about sex was hard, try teaching your pet". They address these exact myths of nutering/spaying animals.. I highly reccomend it.
We have had 130 male rescues neutered and have not had any problems although there is always a risk to any surgery, for animals or people. An experienced vet should should be able to give you wonderful advice on post neutering care, as well as to inform you of the proceeduce and all that goes with it.

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#352922 - 08/02/07 07:04 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


the amount of risk associated with nuetered seems to be the SAME amount of risk of just keeping them in general.. the chances of your glider dying from something related to a neuter, could be the same as your glider getting kidney or liver failure from supplimenting..

Really, homing intact males together, especially in colonies is DIFFICULT.. It definitely can be done, but not all the time,a nd not with every glider..

So here is a serious question that i would like you to answer..

What do you do with a male who is extremely dominant and can and will kill another intact male if given the chance. Do you put him with a female and let him breed regardless of his dominance issues and lack of known lineage?

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#352925 - 08/02/07 07:16 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
aproductof
Unregistered


Since this was at the end, I didn't want it to get lost, so I'm reposting:

Then what do you do with all the male gliders? Female pairings are fine most of the time, but male pairings are not as likely.

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#352930 - 08/02/07 07:32 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


that was basically my question too.. i mean, some males can be paired together, but what about all of the alpha males?

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#352947 - 08/02/07 07:52 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
JazzyJ
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG
that was basically my question too.. i mean, some males can be paired together, but what about all of the alpha males?


Exactly. Would you force these males to live as lone gliders? Then they could become depressed, sick, and even die.

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#352981 - 08/02/07 08:20 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I had a situation with Linus and Rocket.

They've been cage-mates and best buddies since Rocket was about 4 months old, Linus is about 1 month younger? I forget exactly. They always sleep in the same pouch, they groom each other, they look out for each other. Good buddies.

Rocket has been neutered for months.

Just last week, Linus tried to rape Rocket. He got over-agitated since Stella Luna - in the next cage - was in heat. Poor Rocket was completely bewildered.

They ended up balling up and fighting. I'm glad neither was hurt.

Fortunately, I was able to resolve the situation, and now I have a colony of 4. They are living together very well now.

This was unexpected to me. These guys have been together quite a while. So - situations happen.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#353004 - 08/02/07 08:50 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ValkyrieMome]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


its just not feesable to NEVER neuter a glider... especially if you have more than one pair, or a colony.. they just will not live happily if their horomones are raging and theres nothing they can do about it..

ESpecially if there is a colony of females putting of HEAT signals from across the room

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#353041 - 08/02/07 09:16 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
ScootersPet Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 2092
Loc: Baltimore, MD
I recently had to split up two boys, Scooter is neutered, slevin is not. Slevin is being dominate and was attempting to rape Scooter, they will be seperated until Slevin is neutered( except for playtime).....

Obviously I dont agree with the anti neutering, but I do respect others opinions. I am curious about the others questions...from your signature it appears you have a few gliders (hellosugar) are any of them male? If so how are they paired up? If they are with females, what will you do if they keep rejecting joeys? he causes damage to her? are you willing to seperate a bonded pair causing emotional trauma/stress to them?......again just curiosity


_________________________



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#353084 - 08/02/07 10:01 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ScootersPet]
HelloSugar
Unregistered


First, I don't feel that I have to defend myself to anyone here because of my stance on neutering. This is my opinion, and everyone else is entitled to their own.

My gliders area healthy, happy, and extremely well cared for. I will always provide the best for them and do what is in their best interest.

I don't have to, nor do I feel compelled to explain myself, but if everyone must know, I have one male who is paired with a female, the rest are in a female only group. If/when the M/F pair have joeys, I am more than well prepared (having close to 5 years experience with gliders, having done countless hours of reading/research, and being an extremely intelligent person). I have MORE than enough potential homes for the joeys (that is, if I don't keep them myself).

To answer the rest of the scrutinizing questions, if the parents reject the joeys then they should not be breeding and I will not keep them in a breeding situation. The female would be introduced to the all female group, and I would have to find a suitable male buddy for the male (and yes, it CAN and HAS been done, it's just a long drawn out process, but far from impossible).

In my opinion, providing them with new, yet more suitable cagemates is more humane than what I consider to be mutilation. They WILL bond with new companions, and WILL be just as happy as before.

The same goes for if the male was to hurt the female. I would obviously separate ANY two gliders from hurting one another.

I am not the only one with this sentiment. I know first hand of one of the large scale breeders on this forum who has been praised and recommended over and over again, who doesn't nueter her males (most likely because they are one of the less common colors) even if they are having joey/partner problems. She seperates the pair and repairs them.

If you don't agree, you don't have to.

As I stated earlier, my gliders are healthy and happy. And I don't have to snip my male in order to acheive this!

I also don't have to defend myself or my opinions, and I don't have to *prove* to anyone that I'm doing what's right for my gliders. Rest assured, they get outstanding care, and their quality of life is superb!

I won't scrutinize anyone who chooses to slice and dice their pets. Likewise, don't concern yourself with the fact that I don't have to take the same path as you in order to keep my pets in good health and spirit.

I'm discontinuing my participation in this discussion because it's no longer an informative exchange of opinions/points of views, and I no longer care be involved. I'm off to more jovial topics!

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#353112 - 08/02/07 10:23 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
ScootersPet Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 2092
Loc: Baltimore, MD
No one was scrutinizing you, I stated before and after my questions that i respect your opinion and was curious of how the problems were solved in your case, as in better educating myself on your stance. I meant no disrespect, nor offence, just curiosity to your way of thinking. I am sorry if I offended you, but i dont feel i(or anyone else) did/said anything scrutinizing or hurtful.


Edited by ScootersPet (08/02/07 10:25 PM)
_________________________



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#353113 - 08/02/07 10:23 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
I just cant see how a person can justify breaking up a bonded pair and rehoming them with other gliders and causing more stress to an already stressful situation that might be going on with the pair, when neutering can keep gliders together and cause less stress to them in the long run. I dont understand how "bouncing" them around to find just the right "blend" of gliders and all the introducing stress can be better than just keeping them together in the first place? Just my opinion. I would go with the neuter any day to keep gliders together.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#353116 - 08/02/07 10:26 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Sherri]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Sherri, I agree. Cobalt was neutered on a Tues and 2 wks later was introed to Tiki. Neither of them messed with his neuter site.
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#353125 - 08/02/07 10:38 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
I believe wholeheartedly that there is more of a chance of loosing a glider to an innocent accident of some type than something happening because of neutering.
I have 9 males, 8 of which are snipped and havent had any issues because of it either. My other boy will be going in to get snipped when he is old enough.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#353134 - 08/02/07 10:48 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Sherri]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I agree, Newby - but HelloSugar's point of view is really based on other things, not just safety.

Personally, I can NOT imagine a world where animals were not neutered and spayed. However, obviously HelloSugar works around that.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#353159 - 08/02/07 11:15 PM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Sherri]
7glider7
Unregistered


Neutering a male makes it much more likely that he is going to be in a quality situation. He is less likely to fight with other gliders, less likely to end up alone.

While some people are equipped to have a intact male/female pair that reguarly produce joeys, gliders can produce a LOT of joeys in a year, and many people cannot spare the time/money/energy to give so many gliders the attention they need, and then all of the gliders in that situation suffer if the owner becomes overwhelmed.

Yes, sometimes you can find an intact male that will get along with another male...but this is the exception, not the rule. There are already a large number of gliders out there who need homes, and if many of those gliders were intact males, it compounds the problems of introductions and finding them appropriate homes.

While there have been no studies in gliders, many studies have shown that neutering is very beneficial to the health of pets. Not only do they make "better pets" because they are less likely to fight, mark, etc; they are also less likely to develop various forms of cancer due to the hormonal changes neutering causes.

I think especially since gliders are so territorial, neutering is a particularly important option for them. There would be many males stuck in a tough spot if we wouldn't/couldn't neuter them.

Despite hearing stories of a few gliders who didn't make it after neutering, I got my male neutered before he came home. It was a year before he stopped trying to rape the female and they stopped fighting. He was already aggressive enough for the first year despite being neutered, and is just now starting to calm down and be a great pet.

Clearly, for some reason, Kirby was just an aggressive guy, and I honestly think if he wasn't neutered, I would have had to permanently keep him as a single glider in his own cage because his aggression would have made him unsafe to be with other gliders. I don't think rehoming him would have helped either because he was just out of control. What kind of life would that have been for him living by himself? Not a very happy one. Nor would my female have been happy if I let him continue to attempt to rape her.

Neutering has made a huge difference in improving the quality of life for my glider. He is now able to live with my female, and he seems much happier. He didn't even seem particularly depressed before, but I can tell now that he is happier than he was before.

If you will allow me to be crass for a minute, he is never going to miss his little pom poms, and in terms of his spirit and dignity, I think him being able to live and play each day with his girlfriend allows him much more spirit, dignity, and wholeness than if he had to live life by himself in his own little cage.

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#353205 - 08/03/07 12:38 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
ThePastafarian
Unregistered


I'm sorry HelloSugar but I totally and completely and I'm going to try to respectfully disagree with you.

This upsets me:

"I would have to find a suitable male buddy for the male (and yes, it CAN and HAS been done, it's just a long drawn out process, but far from impossible).

In my opinion, providing them with new, yet more suitable cagemates is more humane than what I consider to be mutilation. They WILL bond with new companions, and WILL be just as happy as before. "

So what happens when the first male buddy get for your male doesn't work out? And the second? And the third? What are you goind to do with all of those male gliders?

I find it VERY offensive that you refer to neutering as "slice and dice". That's hardly what it is. Maybe you should watch a vet do a neuter so that you'll have a better understanding of the procedure.

You make it seem like neutering is some awful thing to put gliders though, and that it's unnatural. What's unnatural is keeping a male from a female glider; in the wild they live in colonies of SEVERAL females. How do you explain the separation and still try to claim keeping things "natural".

I find your argument to be lacking in substantiated information. I'm sure if statistics where drawn up, you'd see the actual chance of your glider having complications during the procedure are really low. Your glider is probably going to have a greater chance of getting hurt in a car accident or something.

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#353229 - 08/03/07 02:13 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
HelloSugar
Unregistered


Here is the substantiated information you request regarding spay/neuter. This study was done on spay/neuter in dogs, and until it is scientifically proven that gliders in no way whatsoever have the potential to suffer similar effects due to spay/neuter, we can conclude that it IS in fact entirely possible.

Most intersting is the concluding paragraph:
"An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm
health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter
correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do
not yet understand about this subject."


And even MORE notable (on page 2):
"One thing is clear much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and
contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate pet
Page 3 of 12
owners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits
associated of spay/neuter in dogs."

And to reinforce my point:
"The number of health problems associated
with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases."

Further reinforcement:
"the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear
to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically
mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary."


I know I said I was done with this topic, but because my intelligence is being insulted, I decided to make one LAST post. Here it is. Any future comments/questions/insults within this thread will be ignored, period.

On a final note regarding the neuter topic, I find it amusing that so many claim to know so much, and preach their opinions as though they were experts about medical topics.

SIMILARLY, there was once a time in our history (up until 1967 I believe) that the medical field believed that frontal lobotomy was beneficial in treating psychological illness. Frontal lobotomy involved the insertion of ice picks into the eye sockets and piercing through the bone into the frontal lobe of the brain, then moving the ice picks around to damage that part of the brain. The procedure actually WORKED on some people, making them less violent. It also left many adults with the minds of 5 year olds, in vegetative states, and dead. But at one time, we thought that this voluntary brain damage was beneficial. (You can read more about frontol lobotomy here if you are so inclined: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5014080)

Similarly, we used to torture people to death whom we actually believed were witches during the Salem witch trial.

My point being, people are imperfect and fallable. What is at one time a very POPULAR belief considered medically beneficial can in the future be proven to be detrimental.

I prefer not to interfere with the biology of living beings when it isn't absolutely and positively necessary. That's my opinion. Don't insult it, as I don't insult yours.

Here is the artical:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I'm now done with this topic. Nobody is trying to "understand" anything like you so claim, but rather, attacking my opinion.

Frankly, I am doing NO dis-service to gliders or this community by personally choosing to leave the living creatures that I care for unaltered.

You people will argue anything to the end, regardless of what information is presented to you. In fact, even while being presented with hardcore scientific evidence, you've still got people here who will say "I don't see any problem". It won't even spark a thought of "hmmm, perhaps I don't actually know everything".

I come to this forum to learn (because I have an *open* mind), but honestly I see some really, how shall I say, interesting things going on. For example, one of the "proven diets" is supposed to be used with tofu, and in the same forum, a sticky warns of the danger of soy (and if you didn't know, tofu is nothing more than soybean curd). Similarly one topic will say that dried milk is BAD for gliders because it contains lactose, while if you look on some of the products made for gliders (such as brisky's glider nectar for example) one of it's main ingredients is dried milk. Not to mention the fact that yogurt (which SO many recommend giving to their gliders) contains lactose. It's like everyone is contradicting themselves. I happen to sometimes notice these small details and bring it to light, and and then rather than provoking intelligent thought, people will make things up, like "well lactose in yogurt is okay because blah blah bla while lactose in powdered milk is NOT okay because of whatever. It's still lactose either way. People actually make things up out of thin air just for the sake of being "right". Then you've got the people preaching that you shouldn't let your personal pet breed, while nobody addresses the fact that everyone PRAISES some people from this very board who breed ridiculously high quantities of gliders.

I enjoy coming here to these forums and I believe it's probably one of the most valuable resources a glider owner could have, but there are a lot of "holier than thou" people here who could stand to relax a little.

Again, I refuse to take further participation in this topic and all future posts will be ignored.

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#353255 - 08/03/07 06:52 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
aproductof
Unregistered


I don't get why you are calling it a slice and dice or mutilation. I just saw a neuter this past weekend (pictures at the SGGA). A SMALL incision is made, the testes taken out, and each tied, then placed back in. The incision generally doesn't need stitches or glue.
Breeding, and continued breeding, contributes to a growing problem. Yes, you may have many homes lined up, but what about them? And the people they send their joeys to? And so on? I believe the SRR has stats that ONE male and his offspring can produce X number of joeys in a year (I can't find it at the moment, hopefully someone has it linked somewhere...)

What about pet homes? We should only have same sex pairings because we choose not to breed and shouldn't neuter? What about rescues? Surely those should be neutered. Inbred gliders? Gliders who've had health issues? Pet store glider? Unknown lineage? Same sex pairings aren't always feasible. Sometimes rescues get a colony living happily. Instead they should be split up to prevent further breeding?
To not neuter or spay animals would be grossly irresponsible. The "pet" population is out of control. Nothing about having a pet is natural. Nothing about keeping a glider under ideal conditions to breed year round is natural. These animals are having MORE babies per year than natural. And you can't say that having offspring isn't a health risk.

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#353262 - 08/03/07 07:33 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
HelloSugar- No one was questioning your intelligence. We are trying to understand your position on neutering and how different situations could be corrected/prevented in your case. If you truly feel that others shouldn't neuter, you should be willing to provide advice on how to correct those problems. Also, I didn't see anything that was at all offensive. I just people asking questions or disagreeing with you. To me, neither is offensive. You said that we mutilate our animals. To me that is offensive, but I didn't say anything about it. That is your opinion and you have a right to it. Are we not allowed to have opinions as well?

Also, I know you said you would not be replying from here on out in this thread, but I have another question. Would you allow a surgical treatment for a health issue, or would you also consider that to be mutilation? It seems that if you are concerned with playing God that you would also advocate natural treatments and no surgery for medical reasons either. This is just my own inferrence based on what you've posted thus far, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Again, this is not mean to offend or attack you, but to get more information about your stance.
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#353263 - 08/03/07 07:33 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Gina-I posted that on part 1 of this topic. I'll go back and find it and repost it. smile
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#353264 - 08/03/07 07:35 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
1 male glider lets say he has 4 babies a year look what happens in lets say just 5 yrs of breeding

1x4= 4 add babies and dad 4+1= 5 at end of yr 1 (5)
5x4= 20 add babies and dads 20+5=25 at end of yr 2 (25)
25x4= 100 add babies and dads 100+25=125 at end of yr 3 (125)
125x4= 500 add babies and dads 500+125=625 at end of yr 4 (625)
625x4=2500 add babies and dads 2500+625=3125 at end of yr 5 (3125)

*Thanks to Cyndiekb for that info*
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#353277 - 08/03/07 08:39 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
AngieH
Unregistered


The study did not include the effect on behavior or population control..both are pluses. I believe that most vets would tell you that more research would have to be done and on a much larger scale. Honestly, those risks are there anyway and to not neuter with the millions and millons of cats and dogs being put to death each year is very irresponsible. Also, with us being resuers we see the wonderful results of neutering every day. Gliders can be placed into homes where they will be pampered pets, males are less agressive, females seem to be happier and less stressed. Owners are pleased these is less odor and need to mark, ect. We are also looking at a future of non-surgical sterialization for many animals.

There are groups whose main mission it to not encourage the neutering of pets, they call it mutilation, cruel, ect. Its hard for me to believe but there are. (To me its more cruel to let aniamls multiply only to be euthanized later) These groups don't deal with the issue of animal control or have answers to the problems at hand. A trip to a local kill shelter speaks very loudly to most people.

Here is some information on spay/neuter and the estimation on over population:

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affectin...population.html

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/why_you_should_spay_or_neuter_your_pet.html

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/myths_and_facts_about_spaying_and_neutering.html

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affectin..._estimates.html

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#353301 - 08/03/07 09:54 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Neutering of male gliders to me is essential for non breeding gliders. The benefits are so vast that I just do not understand the reasoning behind NOT neutering.

It reduces the risk of some cancers.
It reduces the risk of self mutilation.
It reduces the risk of continuted self mutilation.
It reduces the risk of mating wounds.
It stops the production of more joeys.
It allows family members to remain together without inbreeding.
It reduces the scent odors.
It reduces agression.
It allows male/male pairs to live together peacefully.

And with all my males I have here that ARE neutered, I see NO negative effects of neutering.

My Dexter is over 12 years old and is neutered. He has NEVER been sick. Never had a UTI, never caused a mating wound, never self mutilated, is not inbreeding with his offspring (so they ARE able to be a colony). Dixie is healthier now that she isn't constantly trying to feed herself and her joeys.

My Reep looks fabulous now. Pre neuter he was so stressed each time they had joeys that he went almost completely body bald. He looked like a rat with mange. Now, 2 years post neuter, he is healthy and fully furred. He is very happy living with his mate and doesn't have to have his children taken away from him. Azalea is healthier now.

My Maui, was very agressive pre neuter. Now he is a cuddle bug. McKenna is healthier now.

My Sebastian and Whisper can be together because Sebastian doesn't inflict mating wounds now.

My Billy and Sam are able to live together (father and son) without hormonal agression towards each other.

Littleman and Valentino (father and son) are also able to be together without fighting. Both of them are to agressive to be with females. If intact, they would have to live as lone gliders without someone to snuggle with and call their own.

All the rescues that have come through here have been neutered as well so that they could go to loving pet only homes where they are treasured for just who they are and not what they might produce.

I've been reading this thread and trying to come up with negatives to neutering. 28 neuters to date and I have not seen ONE negative to neutering. With the exception of immediate post neuter self mutilation, WHICH can be prevented with proper care (pain meds and ecollars), I just can not find a single negative to neutering gliders.

I absolutely will not compare neutering gliders to neutering dogs (all my dogs are neutered too) simply because they are two very different species of animals and their physiology is so completely different it would be like comparing apples to bricks.

Spaying of female gliders is not recommended but can and has been done. In some cases, it is even medically necessary to save the life of the glider. Because it is so invasive compared to neutering males, it is not recommended and I personally would NEVER spay just as a form of birth control with gliders (my female dogs are spayed).

I have human friends that have had sterilization surgeries and they do not consider themselves "mutilated". I myself have had such surgery. For me, it saved my life and removed the cancer (ovarian cancer that is 90% fatal) that would have stopped me from seeing my children grow up and from seeing my grandchildren. I do not feel mutilated at all. I feel blessed that I could have that surgery.

_________________________
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Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

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The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#353319 - 08/03/07 10:45 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
Prfctchins
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: princessmegi
1 male glider lets say he has 4 babies a year look what happens in lets say just 5 yrs of breeding

1x4= 4 add babies and dad 4+1= 5 at end of yr 1 (5)
5x4= 20 add babies and dads 20+5=25 at end of yr 2 (25)
25x4= 100 add babies and dads 100+25=125 at end of yr 3 (125)
125x4= 500 add babies and dads 500+125=625 at end of yr 4 (625)
625x4=2500 add babies and dads 2500+625=3125 at end of yr 5 (3125)

*Thanks to Cyndiekb for that info*


I understand this,BUT....A new person is normally only going to have one,maybe 2 gliders(males I mean)..A larger breeder has more than 1 or 2,so therfore,aren't their numbers adding way more than the "average" person??

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#353321 - 08/03/07 10:50 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Originally Posted By: princessmegi
Did you know that 1 male suggie can create 3,000 descendants in 5 years? That is based on each male having 4 males per year. They can actually have many more than that. Not to mention that they will have female joeys as well.


That may better explain the figures I posted.

I'm really not understanding what you're trying to say though.

_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#353336 - 08/03/07 11:08 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Ok, so a mega breeder with 500 male gliders is going to produce 1,562,500 male offspring in 5 years not counting the females ASSUMING all males are left intact and breeding.

That is a very staggering number of gliders. We do need to shut the "mega breeders" down but that is only part of the problem. The hobby breeders are also producing the same numbers per male.

OK, lets say...

One hobby breeder has 5 producing intact males. In 5 years, with the offspring, that is still 15,625 joeys not counting the female joeys. Does ANYONE here know of 15,625 homes for these gliders? And lets not forget that many "breeders" rehome their retired breeding gliders so we need homes for them too. All the while trying to help the rescues from the mega breeders. It is all so over whelming when you are living with the fall out from the impulse buys and those that see animals as disposable "items".

Also, those numbers are very low to start with. My own Marcell has produced 8 joeys in just over a year, 5 of those are males. (he is getting neutered asap) Out of those, three will be or are breeding. One is going to get ONE set of joeys and get neutered along with any male offspring. The other two are with who I consider very responsible "hobby" breeders who are prepared to keep each and every joey born. One is getting neutered and staying with his parents. But there are also his female joeys.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#353338 - 08/03/07 11:12 AM Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi]
AngieH
Unregistered


The joeys born have to either stay or go to a new home.. if they are male and not neutered or female and put with an intact male they will breed. Each of these gliders adds to the population as well as thier offspring, many who end up in rescues. Thankfully, rescuers (most of them) do netuer and put a stop to the cycle and help decrease future gliders needing rescue.
Recently I heard from someone who rescued some gliders, that were so inbreed, from someone who wouldn't netuer that 2 of them had 2 tails. The tail started as one at the base and then forked into 2 tails. This is what happens, deformaties and genetic issues due to inbreeding. Thankfully, the cycle they were in has been stopped.
We took in once cage of 7, was to be 9 but they stopped and traded 2 for supplies at the feed store on the way here. Those gliders were all from the original 2, they were inbreeding and had one baby who had a heart problem and didn't survive. They ran out of friends to give them to, and couldn't sell them, but didn't want to pay to have the males neutered. Another case... a pet store started out with 5 gliders, a year later they had 30+, inbreeding, some with deformaties before asking us for help.
We are now taking in gliders from kill shelters, this is a sure sign of a big problem and one that makes me very sad.


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