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#355526 - 08/06/07 03:37 PM Bonding Pouch Safety
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
OK, I'm starting this thread in hopes of shedding some light on recent tragedies with gliders lost due to suffocation in bonding pouches and preventing future losses if we can.

90% of mine have windows. The ones with windows zipper closed. The other half dozen or so are small drawstring pouches made of single layer fleece.

So, what should we be looking for in bonding pouches?

What precautions should we be taking at all times?

Please, any insight is appreciated, we need to stop this cycle cry
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#355529 - 08/06/07 03:40 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: BeckiT]
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
Becki, thank you for starting this thread! Hopefully it will turn out to be very informative and helpful.

I have a Sissy with a window, and a drawstring pouch without. I don't use the drawstring one much anymore. I think windows are much better, not only does it decrease the risk of suffocation, but it allows for some air circulation. Most of the pouches I buy from now on will have a window in them, unless it's only something I'll be using for a short time and I will be able to check on them frequently.

Unfortunately, some gliders will not go in a pouch with a window, though.


Edited by glidergrl1513 (08/06/07 03:41 PM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#355537 - 08/06/07 03:44 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: glidergrl1513]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Hollis, Simon and Stella HATE the window, so I stick a blankie in there with them and they hide in/under the blankie instead and don't complain as much. Fair compromise dunno
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#355542 - 08/06/07 03:48 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: BeckiT]
saturngirl Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 2448
Loc: Columbia, SC
I've seen a few bonding pouches w/the zipper that has a window but also has a window cover that can be tied up.
_________________________
*~*Tara*~*
5~suggies "mini" Cooper & Sophie
Paisley, Maci & Smurf
2 ~cats Kia and Gabby~
1 ~silly puppy Darci~

Rest in Peace Chili Pepper dog...you will always have a special place in my heart





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#355544 - 08/06/07 03:49 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: BeckiT]
bbiscuitsmommy
Unregistered


What is a good site to find one with a window? I have never had a problem, but I also don't want to push my luck.

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#355551 - 08/06/07 03:52 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


i actually have been working on my pouches because my gliders HATE windows AND zippers, and honestly i dont like zippers either, i am always scared of catching a tail in it..

WHat i have been doing is placing snaps every inch along the top of the pouch, that way there are open holes between, but not enough for them to push through.. then i cam across the hook and bars which are AMAZING.. theyre kinda like a bra clip, but they click into place and will NOT fall apart if the suggies push to get out.. it does the same thing as the snaps where there is enough space and it isnt fully sealed..


I'm glad you started this too, because i had only heard of ONE glider dying in it's pouch, and i am under the impression that it was a one in a million or a fluke that that happened.

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#355553 - 08/06/07 03:54 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Does anyone know what kind of pouch the gliders were in?

Most of mine have windows. The one's that don't have windows - I don't use. If the point of bonding is for them to get used to my smell - I figure a window does that better! Plus the whole breathing thing ...
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#355556 - 08/06/07 03:57 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Janw
Unregistered


what is a protective pough

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#355557 - 08/06/07 04:00 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ValkyrieMome]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
Alden,

It was a windowless sissy pouch, with cotton on the outside and fleece on the inside.


I for one will never use a windowless pouch again.
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate

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#355560 - 08/06/07 04:01 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: MizValorie]
saturngirl Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 2448
Loc: Columbia, SC
Hi bbiscuitsmommy ~
I just ordered 2 bonding pouches w/a zipper & window from Cheryl at cuddlecreations. Here's the website : http://www.cuddlecreationsbycheryl.com

Thanks!
_________________________
*~*Tara*~*
5~suggies "mini" Cooper & Sophie
Paisley, Maci & Smurf
2 ~cats Kia and Gabby~
1 ~silly puppy Darci~

Rest in Peace Chili Pepper dog...you will always have a special place in my heart





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#355562 - 08/06/07 04:05 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: saturngirl]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


i was just thinking.. i have a super huge deep and narrow CAGE POUCH and i have five gliders.. sometimes they ALL climb in there together - the pouch is obviously very open at the top, but should i be worried about the glider who gets the bottom??

I mean, this can go one much much further from just bonding pouches!

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#355566 - 08/06/07 04:09 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: MizValorie]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: MizValorie
I for one will never use a windowless pouch again.


I'm SO sorry you two are going through this. I feel so badly for each of you.

I've never liked windowless pouches. Now - even more so!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#355568 - 08/06/07 04:13 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG
my gliders HATE windows AND zippers


My first one hated both windows and zippers.

I had Cheryl make me a pouch with a window, and a flap that hangs loosely and covers the window. That way, light doesn't get in, but air does. As for zippers - they don't get a choice! I had one escape from a drawstring pouch and when I realized it, he was nose to nose with my dog. Nothing but zippers after that.

I hope that the glider community is improved as a result of this horrible tragedy.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#355607 - 08/06/07 05:04 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ValkyrieMome]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
We had a little joey about some years ago that really didn't care for the open window. So about 4 years ago we came up with a tie-up window shade pouch for him. He absolutely loved it. I have been making them ever since.

http://www.petsugargliders.com/store/pouche16.jpg
_________________________
Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders

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#355610 - 08/06/07 05:10 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: petsugargliders]
Janw
Unregistered


how cute is that-do you make them for us newbies

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#355629 - 08/06/07 05:30 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
Yes, I do make/sell them. I don't want to break any rules, so please PM me here or email me if you have any questions about them.
_________________________
Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders

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#355637 - 08/06/07 05:35 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: MizValorie]
7glider7
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: MizValorie


I for one will never use a windowless pouch again.


I am so sorry to those of you who have lost gliders in pouches. I don't want to sound harsh or pressure people into sharing if they don't want to, but perhaps what would be most useful is if the people who have lost gliders due to suffocation in pouches could share on this thread what type of pouch that was (windowless, with window, material type, etc).

Windowless pouches, and even my sleeping pouches, have always made me uncomfortable...I see Tanooki sleep on top of Kirby all the time and I wonder how he can breathe.

But, do we even know if most of the suffocation deaths are due to windowless pouches? Are they more common in this type of pouch than in window pouches for certain?

I think we need to take a closer look and I would be happy to do number crunching so we can get a more accurate and objective way to assess our gliders' safety.

I think this could be a lifesaving thread if people would be willing to post any glider deaths and the type of pouch, OR, please PM me with the info, I understand it is sensitive info, and I will post results. While I can't imagine how tough it would be to think about such a tragedy, analyzing this information could possibly save a lot of suggie lives.

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#355639 - 08/06/07 05:39 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
TracyLynn
Unregistered


Jen, I agree more information is needed & thank you for being willing to collect & analyze it for us. - sending you a pm

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#355640 - 08/06/07 05:39 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
7glider7
Unregistered


If people would be willing to PM me or post, I think the necessary info would be:

1) Describe the make of pouch (with window or windowless)

2) Zipper, drawstring, or other closure (if other, describe)

3) Material pouch was made out of (fleece? Single or double lined? etc)

4) Other information that may help save other gliders (although I know this is tough to share):

-Were there other gliders in the same pouch? If so, how many, and did they survive?

-What was the weather like (heat, humidity, air flow)?

-How long had gliders been in the pouch? Last time you checked on them and they were OK?

-Last time glider had drink or food, and what was the drink or food

-Any other details that you think might shed light on the situation


Edited by 7glider7 (08/06/07 05:56 PM)
Edit Reason: adding bit about drink and food

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#355642 - 08/06/07 05:42 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


maybe also ask the last time the glider had a treat or food.

I think that is a GREAT way of looking at this. Out of all of the trajedy, we can save another glider's life by offering up a solution, but we need to pinpoint the problem first!!

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#355651 - 08/06/07 05:58 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
7glider7
Unregistered


Good idea Lindsay. I just added it.

On second thought, this is some pretty tough stuff to be posting on a thread...everyone, I would really encourage you to please PM me as much info as you can if you have ever lost a glider in a pouch, and it was any way suspected that it was related to the pouch conditions.

I'm going to take a couple of weeks to get as much info as I can and then I will analyze it and post the results.

I can promise you when I post results I will not use specific names or situations and I will respect your privacy and be very respectful and non-judgemental about any incidents.

I really just want to find this out for my own gliders and for everyone else's gliders too.


Edited by 7glider7 (08/06/07 06:00 PM)

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#355656 - 08/06/07 06:08 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Quote:
but should i be worried about the glider who gets the bottom??


No, probably not. Unlike fabric, the fur they're under breathes, and air comes in from the top. That is something they do in the wild as well. Carbon dioxide (what we all exhale) isn't going to build to dangerous levels with an escape route.

Quote:
and i am under the impression that it was a one in a million or a fluke that that happened.


There was also a group of 7 or 8 that died on a car trip, zipped in pouches, last summer. I think there were 3 or 4 pouches involved.

A shipping tragedy where they all died zipped in their pouches more recently.

There have been a few more I remember, all with multiple gliders in the pouch, single pouch incidents. I don't know that anyone even thought to ask what KIND of pouch they were in.

All together that's at least 20 in the last year... THAT WE KNOW OF frown

I own ONE drawstring pouch (one of my very first ones) from Glider Daydreams. In order to prevent escape, I had to close it so tight there WAS no opening. I worried enough I was opening it every 5 minutes to check on the glider...it's also the only kind of pouch I've ever seen them come out of WET with no external source of water to have gotten on them, and it isn't pee. Some of those who have died were wet with no obvious source of water. Sweat? Must be-but by the time a glider actually visibly sweats, since they don't have many sweat glands, it's critical. They also can't pant to cool off like a dog.

Babies and even adults have suffocated and died wrapped in blankets-you don't need to apply pressure if conditions are right. Multiple gliders in a small space with no fresh air circulation or way to keep carbon dioxide from building in the small space-can also. If you are in a box, you will suffocate (ie think buried alive). It's very possible under the right conditions that the pouch acts like the 'box'.

I think Becki is asking if this is a potential, what are ideas for preventing it in the future. To my knowledge, the gliders mysteriously dead in pouches weren't checked for this (in the known cases), but no other cause on necropsy, in the few it was done, could be found. The gliders were not otherwise ill, and ALL died in the affected pouches.

Is this a certainty? No. Is it possible/likely? Very.

Good job starting this, Becki! thumb
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#355659 - 08/06/07 06:12 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
Serbrina
Unregistered


Just wanted to check and see if anyone has used bonding pouches made out of T-shirt material?

I have been so worried about them getting to hot inside the fleece bonding pouches that I have not taken them out much and carried them around. I saw some bonding pouches on..well I'm not sure if I can say where or not..but anyway..they are made out of T-shirt material. they also have the bra pouches made out of it also.

I have both the bonding and bra pouches made out of fleece and they love to be in the bra pouch..only problem I can guess that it must be so very hot in there grin fur,fleese and body heat.

So I decided to g oahead and buy one T-shirt bonding pouch and a t-shirt bra pouch...this time with a zipper...I had a miss hap while at Walmart...they crawled out of the bra pouch and were sticking their little heads out the top of my shirt...very cute for me to see but others were looking at me very strange confused trying to figure out what they were.

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#355672 - 08/06/07 06:30 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


yep, i have two made of t-shirt material.. i like them for the summer time cause they are breathable.

thanks for the clarification Xfilefan!

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#355675 - 08/06/07 06:32 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: Xfilefan]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Jen, you say:
Originally Posted By: Xfilefan
Babies and even adults have suffocated and died wrapped in blankets-you don't need to apply pressure if conditions are right. Multiple gliders in a small space with no fresh air circulation or way to keep carbon dioxide from building in the small space-can also. If you are in a box, you will suffocate (ie think buried alive). It's very possible under the right conditions that the pouch acts like the 'box'.
Does this mean I shouldn't use a blanket in the sissy to cover the window for Simon and Stella? I don't take them with often because Stella is a super talkative girl and often gives me away, lol.

Quote:
I think Becki is asking if this is a potential, what are ideas for preventing it in the future. To my knowledge, the gliders mysteriously dead in pouches weren't checked for this (in the known cases), but no other cause on necropsy, in the few it was done, could be found. The gliders were not otherwise ill, and ALL died in the affected pouches.

Is this a certainty? No. Is it possible/likely? Very.

Good job starting this, Becki! thumb
Yes, I was asking how we can prevent/what steps we can take for our gliders utmost safety in their bonding pouches wink I can't take credit for the idea, I got it from y'all in this Rainbow Memorials post, I just took the idea and started a new post on it wink

Thank you to all who have offered input, and those that have/will send info to Jen to be analyzed. I know it hurts to lose a baby, but through sharing, hopefully more little lives will be saved!
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#355678 - 08/06/07 06:37 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: BeckiT]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
A blanket should be fine. Several, on the other hand, could cause a problem. It's not tight, and shifts when they do, plus allows air around the edges. I use a blankie in mine during the winter here, but don't worry unless it's very cold and I have to put them under my jacket as well for warmth-then you run a risk. I keep that scenario to a minimum, like the run from the car to inside the vet's office.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#355682 - 08/06/07 06:43 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
aronoiiel
Unregistered


This is an awesome thread idea thanks for starting it Becki and thank you Jen for offering to build up statistics for everyone. I personally don't take our girls out to much because Taska HAS to see EVERYTHING that is going on and actually got out of the pouch when I was in one of our fave restraunts and we had to scamper quickly to the car. We have no sew pouches that I've made but with Taska I have to tie the pouch so there is no opening or she WILL get out and that makes me neurotically worry and check on them every few minutes because I worry they can't breathe.

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#356391 - 08/07/07 03:10 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: ]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
I really dont want this post to get lost. Please PM Jen with any info that you know of.
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate

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#356413 - 08/07/07 03:36 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: MizValorie]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


ya know those little "vents" that you find on camping or hiking type clothes? I was trying SOOOO HARD to find them for sale so i can use them on a pouch and test that , but i could not find them for sale ANYWHERE - and i have been know to be the QUEEN of google.. I just dont know why we cant find them.. i found a distributor in china, but i am really frustrated with importing from china right now, plus i wold have to order 1000+ and i dont need that many!

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#356529 - 08/07/07 06:44 PM Re: Bonding Pouch Safety [Re: petsugargliders]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: petsugargliders
Yes, I do make/sell them. I don't want to break any rules, so please PM me here or email me if you have any questions about them.


You can advertise your pouches in our Glider Things forum. I'm sure everyone would love to see what you have available...and so would I clap

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