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#368216 - 08/22/07 04:37 PM HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Many of you have asked for a detailed nutritional analysis of the so-called "HPW diet." We got tired of waiting, so we researched it and came up with our own analysis.

We have also posted this elsewhere, as there have been so many unanswered questions about this diet, we are hoping this will be a welcome data set for those seriously considering using this plan.

In the research stage, we contacted the Womberoo company to get the values on the HPW powder, and then we used other resources to do an analysis of the egg, honey and bee pollen. Womberoo's own analysis of the powder itself was based on 1 KG in volume, so this had to be broken down to box size, batch size and ultimately serving size.

All of this was put into a massive, multi-tabbed spreadsheet so the values could be added up and then manipulated for the actual amounts used in a single serving. We then had to normalize the units of measurement across the ingredients so they would add up correctly (grams, milligrams, micrograms, etc.). That is to say we added the nutritional values of the exact serving size amount of each food (HPW Powder, Bee Pollen, Egg, Honey, etc.). We also used nutritiondata.com as a source for the other items.

We were compelled to do this because although we have seen several analyses of just the powder, we have not seen one that takes on the whole "diet" let alone an analysis including the added fruits and veggies. It is our hope that this "dual" analysis is both useful and realistic.

Our first discovery was the low Calcium to Phosphourus ratio in the "Mix" of the powder, pollen, honey and eggs. Even the absolute amount of Calcium is low. So that is why there are two analyses: one without the fruits and veggies and one with the fruits and veggies. We chose to use one tablespoon of Papaya and one tablespoon of Spinach because they have high Ca:Ph ratio in the hopes of offsetting the inferior ratio in the diet mix. By doing this, it bumps the ratio up considerably to 1.8:1 (up from a pretty low 1.29:1).

The bottom line is if you are going to use this diet, you need to make sure you are using higher-ratio fruits and veggies. Don't just throw the standard frozen corn, peas and carrots together because they have "backwards" ratios to begin with and that further exascerbates the poor ratio of the mixed part of the diet.

The second interesting thing we had suspected, and confirmed to be true, is the protein contribution. The HPW powder itself accounts for roughly only half of all the protein in the diet, while the eggs and pollen are the bulk of the other half. This is actually not a bad balance, considering the HPW powder uses whey protein and soy isolates.

Third, when you look at the breakdown per serving, we do not see any alarming amounts of any minerals or vitamins. One is given to pause when you are asked to add two tablespoons of pollen. Two tablespoons of pollen is equivalent to 437.5 grains. When you take those 437.5 grains and spread them out over 160 single servings, that's only 2.73 grains of pollen per serving. The Healesville diet calls for 5 grains per week, so this is just shy of 4 times as much as that. But we don't think, put into perspective this is an "overdose" of pollen. In fact, before the analysis, we had cut back on the pollen, but now we are going to put it back the way it was... The actual prtoein, vitamin and mineral breakdown of bee pollen is not all that shocking as it turns out.

This is the link to the first page without fruit/veggie
http://www.glidercentral.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=104560&g2_navId=xa74d399b

This is the link to the second pabe WITH fruit/veggie
http://www.glidercentral.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=104564&g2_navId=xa74d399b
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#368239 - 08/22/07 05:00 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Lucky_Glider]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
Wow, a lot of work, but I am sure for those who feed this diet (I feed Priscilla Price diet), that this is a welcome source of info. Thank you for taking the time to do this and for posting it.
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#368249 - 08/22/07 05:11 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: pappy1264]
uraqt33 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 1232
Loc: Springfield, IL
I agree...I had a lot of questions about this diet also... even though I feed Priscilla Price diet and am very happy with it. I'm sure many will appreciate you taking time to do this.
_________________________
April
Wife to David heart
Loving mom to 9 glider fuzzbutts
My little angel angel angel : Skittles, Herky, and little Mr. Pickles


Glider Toys Unlimited

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#368265 - 08/22/07 05:32 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: uraqt33]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Ed and Gail --

Thank you.

I'm not sure if you know, but in my email to you, I was basically asking you to do this! (ie: do all the math and thinking for me! laugh )

I appreciate it! I never know what's "right" and I really thank you for breaking it down. Perhaps we can now call it "HPW For Dummies"? (ie: me! roflmao )
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#368269 - 08/22/07 05:43 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ValkyrieMome]
ThePastafarian
Unregistered


Spinach is not a good source of calcium.

While high in calcium content, it is also high in oxalates, which keeps the body from absorbing calcium, including any calcium from other sources besides spinach that are being consumed at the same time as the spinach. From what I've read, only 5% of the calcium in spinach is actually absorbed.

I believe the oxalates also inhibit absorption of iron and other minerals as well.

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#368274 - 08/22/07 06:03 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Yes, The Pastafarian your observation of the oxalates in spinach is correct. I have heard from others it is "high" in iron too, but not as high as some baby foods and wheat germ. The punch of your warning, however is somewhat diminshed when taken into context first of the overall diet, and second by dint of the fact it is one example.

Allow me to explain:

First, consider the fact that D3 offsets the oxalates in Spinach and is part of the preparation in the HPW powder specifically to aid in the synthesis of Calcium. In fact, if it were not for the D3, I would recommend a calcium suppliment.

In other words, if you wanted calcium and all you ate was spinach, that wouldn't be a good idea. But taken in context of all the other ingredients, inlcuding the D3, it is fine.

Second, consider the context of this being just an example. Another important aspect of correctly preparing this "diet" is to rotate and vary the fruits and veggies. This assures random injections of other vitamins and trace minerals. We never feed spinach or any other veggie every single day over and over and over.

That is why the spinach and papaya were used as an EXAMPLE to show people how they can offset the low ca:ph ratios. Alternatives to spinach that also have a high ratio are kale, collards and parsely. But most important is to rotate the fruits and veggies. This is the advice we have from our vet and we think it's good.

Your warning is a good stand-alone warning about spinach, but in the context of this example and the other ingredients, I think it's OK to use it every once and a while.


_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#368282 - 08/22/07 06:19 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Lucky_Glider]
ThePastafarian
Unregistered


Every once in awhile, sure, but for a diet that is already low in calcium, I wouldn't want someone to take your spinach example as a basis, know what I mean?

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#368284 - 08/22/07 06:27 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Lucky_Glider]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Ed & Gail, what info were you able to find on the vitamins and minerals in pollen? I've found data on A, B1, B2, B3, C, Ca, Fe, Mg, and Zn. This makes pollen look like a good Ca source until you realize that there is usually at least as much P as Ca.

Where you able to find any more info?

Incidentally, the only stand-out vitamin in the HWP I see is Vit. A, since gram per gram, pollen has about 10x as much A as carrots and 8x as much as sweet potato. Even though it is broken down over many servings, do you think it might be good to limit carrots and sweet potato in the veggie portion (since some forms of Vit. A can be toxic in excessive quantities). It is also interesting (to me at least) the some of the symptoms of chronic Vit. A toxicity (in humans) mimic the some symptoms of HLP.

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#368310 - 08/22/07 07:18 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: blockamon]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Hmmm.

My babies won't eat veggies unless I stir in sweet potatoes! So - that's not great.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#368363 - 08/22/07 08:35 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ValkyrieMome]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Well, don't panic yet. I haven't run the numbers, so I don't know if it's a potential issue or not.

Another thing is that carrots actually have Beta Carotine, which is processed into Vit. A by the body. There is a lot lower risk of toxicity this way. The same might be true with sweet potatoes.


Edited by blockamon (08/22/07 08:36 PM)

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#368373 - 08/22/07 08:47 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: blockamon]
morksmom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 1906
Loc: Texas
Yall are killing me!
Some of you brains make a note on a variety fruits/veggies to feed together.:)Mine get the same every night
mixed veggies/cantalope and honeydew.This has been fed to others for an extended period of time. SO....

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#368416 - 08/22/07 09:37 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: morksmom]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Mine get the same mix of fruits and the same mix of vegetables for as long as a batch lasts. Then, when I mix 'em up again, I vary them again. So- over time they've had a variety.

Mine happen to love fresh spinach. So I throw that on top of it all every once in a while. And I struggle to get them to eat much of anything - so I keep experimenting. I hope that when I actually find one they'll eat I remember what I did!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#368424 - 08/22/07 09:42 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ValkyrieMome]
mrsshoe1434
Unregistered


OKAY what is the mix?? what do they get every night? And would it be okay with the PML
sarah

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#368443 - 08/22/07 10:00 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
LOL

I don't know, Sarah. I can only tell you that it is what I feed. I wouldn't even begin to tell you if it would be ok with any specific diet!

For fruit:
1) Bag of frozen Dole fruit mix. It contains Strawberries, grapes, pineapple, peaches and melon. I take out more than half of the strawberries, because my guys don't like 'em so much.
2) half a bag of frozen Mango.

Defrost all this.

Chop it up in a food processor. Mine eat it better if I chop it rather than blend it. I add any fresh fruit I have, too. Sometimes watermelon, sometimes berries. (not blueberries - those come later.)

Then I add a variety of baby food fruit. Only a jar or so of each. This is where my variety comes in. Applesauce, bananas, pears, plums. Whatever variety I feel like at the time. Not so much on the bananas or strawberries - those tend to put my guys off.

Then I drop a few blueberries (2 or 3) into the bottoms of Ice cube trays. On top, I add a Tablespoon of the mix I made. Freeze it. Each glider gets a cube a night.

That's the fruit.

For vegetables - I do pretty much the same thing. Buy frozen vegetables. Thaw them. Chop them up. Mix them with some vegetable varieties of baby food (mine won't eat it unless there is sweet potato) Then I drop in a few pieces of corn and a few peas into the ice cube trays, add the mix and freeze.

Again - mine get a Tablespoon sized cube of this every night.

That's what I mean by the variety. It is made the same way each batch, but I vary what I put in.

Then they each get 1/2 a cube of HPW and they love it!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Top
#368494 - 08/22/07 11:00 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
I didn't read all the mumbo jumbo above. I don't feel like making my brain work tonight, LOL. But what I did get out of this, is that the HPW does not have enough calcium in it. Couldn't we just add a calcium supplement to solve that problem? Of course, only after it would be analyzed and all the good stuff to make sure it didn't mess the whole diet up.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#368503 - 08/22/07 11:05 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Lynsie]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
I hate to disagree, but YES it DOES have enough in it....

Just one opinion against another...So I will agree to disagree.

Just remember too much calcium is just as bad as not enough...and it is NOT all about calcium. ohwell
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#368534 - 08/22/07 11:49 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Srlb]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
Another thing is that carrots actually have Beta Carotine, which is processed into Vit. A by the body.


When there is to much Vit A in the diet, the body can not process it and it does not eliminate it as it should and is stored in the liver, causing potential liver problems.

Beta Carotine is a better option because as the body needs Vit A, it converts the Beta Carotine. The portion of Beta Carotine not used is excreted through the feces.


Peggy is absolutely right about mentioning to much calcium is as bad as not enough. When a glider is getting to much calcium, crystals in the urine can form causing problems that can even lead to self mutilation. To much calcium can cause gall stones and kidney stones to form as well as arthritis (atleast in humans).
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#368537 - 08/22/07 11:54 PM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Dancing]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


i think i'm gonna read this post when i'm more awake tomorrow.. but THANKS for doing all this!

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#368547 - 08/23/07 12:11 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Okay, I won't worry about the calcium as long as Peggy is here to save the day. When you guys prove this diet is harmful to my gliders, then you can let me know.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#368548 - 08/23/07 12:11 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ]
mrsshoe1434
Unregistered


LOL I GOT IT!! I am doing the same as Val except mine is PML and the only difference is one egg less and bee pollen less. Hmm
I will stick with it..
sarah


Edited by mrsshoe1434 (08/23/07 12:19 AM)

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#368560 - 08/23/07 12:19 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I'm curious... to those that say they feed PML, are you feeding the ENTIRE PML diet or just what has been published?
(the published PML diet is only about 50% of the actual PML diet)

Pockets feeds more than what is on the PML listed in the diets thing. She imports quite a bit from Aussie and grows some things from Aussie seed.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#368561 - 08/23/07 12:20 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


i dont think there is any problem with questioning and analyzing and changing as long as it is for the better and we all can avoid the mob mentality and just look at it rationally - like we are now..

We are all in this for the good of the suggies.. I think its a GREAT diet, but i definitely would liek to know if the ca:p ratios are upside down or even because then that would help me to choose the fruits and veggies i choose. I dont want to over suppliment by giving them too much calcium high foods, but i also wouldn't want to risk a lack of calcium..

I am just open.. open to ALL the knowledge i can get.. and this seems to be the MOST detailed break down of everything in the diet that i have seen soo far

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#368582 - 08/23/07 12:41 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: ThePastafarian
Every once in awhile, sure, but for a diet that is already low in calcium, I wouldn't want someone to take your spinach example as a basis, know what I mean?


Yes, your meaning is clear and you make an excellent point. For the record, the analysis with the sample fruit and veggies is not meant to be a basis, but rather an example to show how the ratios of the "mix only" part of the diet can be changed significantly by the fruits and veggies. It may be instructional for you to do another, third or fourth example with other fruits and veggies so you can share your perspective further. If you are interested in doing that, I shall send you the source spreadsheet with all of the tabs of the separate ingredients on it.

I take no severe sense of ownership in this documents as the exercise was meant to be openly shared in the hopes in may help people so I consider it a public domain item.

Just send an email to the address below if you would like to pursue this.

Cheers, Ed
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#368584 - 08/23/07 12:45 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Lynsie]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: Lynsie
I didn't read all the mumbo jumbo above. I don't feel like making my brain work tonight, LOL. But what I did get out of this, is that the HPW does not have enough calcium in it. Couldn't we just add a calcium supplement to solve that problem? Of course, only after it would be analyzed and all the good stuff to make sure it didn't mess the whole diet up.


I think the point I was trying to make is the ratio between ca and ph is not 2:1. for the overall diet (including the veggies and fruit) to be closer to 2:1 you have to work at it. That's the reason I bothered to show the second analysis with sample fruits and veggies.
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#368589 - 08/23/07 01:05 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Srlb]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: Srlb
I hate to disagree, but YES it DOES have enough in it....

Just one opinion against another...So I will agree to disagree.

Just remember too much calcium is just as bad as not enough...and it is NOT all about calcium. ohwell


For the sake of clarity, allow me to interject that I happen to approve this diet and both of my colonies are on it. And I am more comfortable with it now after my due diligence.

Peggy, to remove any doubt, it is not I who said it was "all about calcium." Anyone caring enough to reveiw the analysis will see that it is pretty clear that many important components from protein, to fat, to vitamins and minerals were taken into account. Your comment could be read as diminishing that fact.

The analysis bears out that the generic 2:1 ratios are off in the stand-alone mix (without fruits and veggies) and I respectfully submit that is a simple fact, not an opinion. That generic ratio is a simple but important guideline that is supported by every vet I have spoken to on the subject. It is certainly not horribly off, but the point is that careful attention to the correct fruit and veggie mixes can alleviate that problem. And for anyone not too defensive about this simple diet, it is plain that it should be duly addressed.

You say it does have enough (calcium) in it but I have never seen you or any other proponent of the diet provide an analysis to establish that as a fact. So far it has been a "trust me" proposition.

To dismiss this out of hand suggests that having an analysis is not important and it's easier just to "believe." Now what I am about to say is indeed an opinion: To search for truth and attempt accuracy is worthy.

Surely, I would have much prefered as would many others, to have seen this analysis on the web page where the diet is promoted rather than doing this myself. That would have been instructional and a sign of leadership. It's not too late for that if you wish to take advantage of this analysis. I will send you the source documents if you want them...


_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#368591 - 08/23/07 01:11 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: blockamon]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: blockamon
Ed & Gail, what info were you able to find on the vitamins and minerals in pollen? I've found data on A, B1, B2, B3, C, Ca, Fe, Mg, and Zn. This makes pollen look like a good Ca source until you realize that there is usually at least as much P as Ca.

Where you able to find any more info?

Incidentally, the only stand-out vitamin in the HWP I see is Vit. A, since gram per gram, pollen has about 10x as much A as carrots and 8x as much as sweet potato. Even though it is broken down over many servings, do you think it might be good to limit carrots and sweet potato in the veggie portion (since some forms of Vit. A can be toxic in excessive quantities). It is also interesting (to me at least) the some of the symptoms of chronic Vit. A toxicity (in humans) mimic the some symptoms of HLP.


Brian, I have the break-down on pollen in the spreadsheet I mentioned and I will be sending that to you. Only 2.7% of pollen is comprised of mineral ash and the minerals, including calcium are not really that plentful. The big contribution the pollen makes is proteins. In fact, pound-for-pound pollen has more proteins than red meat. But since we only use 2 tablespoons in a whole batch, it is not really high from an abosolute value standpoint.
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#368592 - 08/23/07 01:18 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: ]
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 340
Loc: Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG
i dont think there is any problem with questioning and analyzing and changing as long as it is for the better and we all can avoid the mob mentality and just look at it rationally - like we are now..

We are all in this for the good of the suggies.. I think its a GREAT diet, but i definitely would liek to know if the ca:p ratios are upside down or even because then that would help me to choose the fruits and veggies i choose. I dont want to over suppliment by giving them too much calcium high foods, but i also wouldn't want to risk a lack of calcium..

I am just open.. open to ALL the knowledge i can get.. and this seems to be the MOST detailed break down of everything in the diet that i have seen soo far


This is an enlightened sentiment and I am grateful you feel this way. For the record, and especially after having done the analysis, I don't believe this "HPW diet" needs to be altered. But since the overall diet plan calls for a tablespoon of mixed veggies and a tablespoon of mixed fruit, it stands to reason that those should be offered not willy-nilly, but with reasonable attention to their nutritive values. I think it is ill-advised to simply plop any 'ole items in the bowl and to leave it at that.

There is another sentiment that suggests this all is silly and that gliders are much more resilient than we give them credit for. I respect that opinion as well. This analysis and the suggestions that go along with it are for those who desire a deeper understanding. Speaking strictly for myself, I believe it is better to err on the side of careful attention. I feel that way because I want my gliders to live a long and happy life and I am willing to work at it in the hopes my silly doting will pay off in that regard... :-)


_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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#368672 - 08/23/07 08:44 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Lucky_Glider]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Ed, first of all, dont patronize me, it does NOT work. I am not one that is intimidated by anyone.

Many people like yourself have come forward trying to be the *hero* with all your numbers and all your figures and you know what? That is fine, however, you need to go through and LOOK and READ and LISTEN to how many people you know have running around in circles, having no clue about ratios, them ONLY considering calcium in a diet (nobody ever said it was YOU that said this) and totally wigging out that they are doing something wrong in the way they are feeding their gliders.

Sorry, I personally do not need to go try to do something I know I personally can not do, (the breakdown), but I DO things I know I CAN do. Like go by what my vet says, who I trust completely. I CAN tell people to look at my gliders, they are healthy, they are happy and this is what I feed and this is what my vet told me to feed after HE did the breakdown and research on the diet. And I encourage EVERYONE to go to THEIR vet to have it done.

People like to come along and make a big ado over things, I have seen it many times with this diet, with the BML diet and even with Priscillas diets because of her vitamins.

I am saying, I PERSONALLY will go by what I have learned from a man that has over a decade of education in exotics behind him, from the person who introduced me to the HPW powder, and from the contacts SHE has in australia (which she shared some of their emails and words with me, unlike you when asked)and the proof of my gliders and the state they are in right now.

I am NOT saying a breakdown is not a good thing and I even applaud you for being able to do it...what I am saying is go back and look at how many people are wiggin out now thinking they are feeding the wrong veggies, the wrong fruits and how many are focusing on calcium....

Look at the bad along with the good is all I am saying. I see an unnecessary panic forming, especially with the newbies that have so much to soak up as far as info anyway.

I will no longer be a part of this post, as I dont think there is anymore to add to this post than I already have. I have spoken with several people through pm and they know where I am if they need to get in touch with me.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#368691 - 08/23/07 09:25 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: Srlb]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Peggy is right...Look at the panic that this post has caused...

http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/368395/fpart/1
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#368767 - 08/23/07 11:27 AM Re: HPW DIET NUTRITIONAL ANALYSIS [Re: princessmegi]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Unfortunately, I doubt that we will ever come to a concensus on what to feed gliders, and yes, some will likely panic and mis-interpret the information Ed (or Gail) has provided. BUT that doesn't mean it shouldn't be presented and discussed.

It looks like Ed's numbers are close to what I got when I worked up the diet. Unfortunately, not all of us have the benefit of a vet that is versed in sugar glider diets. I go to the best one in my area, but he probably isn't a well-read on their diets as I am. So, I can't reasonably expect the an OK from the vet means my diet is OK, I have to research it myself.

The basic point that Ed makes is sound. The HPW mix probably has "enough" calcium, but it does not have excess to offset bad choices in fruits and veggies. For example, BML has LOTS of calcium and can offset pretty much any old combination of veggies. In fact, I'd be worried if I fed only positive Ca:P veggies/fruits with BML because the gliders would probably have too much calcium absorption.

Ed also has not suggested that calcium is the only concern. Even a casual read of the post will show that he highly recommends a variety of fruits and veggies to make sure that all the vitamin needs are covered.

The basic point is sound. The HPW powder and mix contains enough calcium to balance itself and provides some vitamins and minerals. However, to get a balanced and healthy diet overall, a variety of fruits and veggies (with the mix having at least a Ca:P >1 preferably close to 2:1) needs to be fed.

It will be great if Ed can post some of the combinations he uses. If not, maybe someone else who uses the diet will.

Until then, if you are looking for a diet where you don't have to think things through and do a little math, then I would suggest looking at another diet.


Edited by blockamon (08/23/07 11:29 AM)

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