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#370479 - 08/25/07 07:34 PM "The diet discussion"
prjctsphynx
Unregistered


Ok guys I wanted to ask some questions about all the diets there are for gliders. What makes one diet better then the other? Is it just the gliders personal preferance? Or is there more to it then that?

I would like to hear oppinions from as many people as possible! I personaly have decided to give Biggie nothing but fresh fruits, and vegitables with crickets meal and worms (and once in a while a pinkie) for protien. Also I dust the all of his "snacks" (including crickets and meal worms", with calsuim supplements and vitamins. This way I make sure he is getting all the ones he needs. He loves it, and he is alot more active then in previous posts. Hopfully some day biggie will be smalls. (lol)

Anyway now that you know my plan of choice. I want to hear yours! Tell me why you chose the diet, how your glider likes it, any changes in his general demeanor since the change, and even give me a link! If I havent tried it, (Which several diet plans fall into that category since this is my first glider.) then I may give it a whirl, and of Biggie approves!


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#370495 - 08/25/07 07:57 PM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: ]
7glider7
Unregistered


diet is a tough topic with gliders. There is no one "best diet," and anyone who tells you there is one "best diet" is not correct. We know fairly little about the nutritional needs of gliders and how to best meet them, and even if you have a diet approved by a vet, unless that vet is a nutritionist with experience in exotics, they are unlikely to REALLY KNOW if that diet is appropriate.

Really the best you can do for your glider is pick a diet that many others use and their gliders are still healthy.

Your diet as you describe it concerns me. Sprinkling calcium on top may not be enough to give your glider enough vitamins and minerals. It is not just as easy as a calcium sprinkle, it is actually the ratio of calcium to other minerals and many other factors (ratio of protein to fruits and veggies) that are also important.

Crickets and mealies are not actually a very substantial source of protein. As you describe your diet, I think it is very lacking in protein. If you decide to design your own diet, you need to research what ratio of protein your glider needs to fruits and veggies...you will find different ratios in different places but most agree that gliders need a substantial source, and feeding pinkies "once in a while" with crickets and mealies regularly really isn't enough.

My personal suggestion would be to pick a diet from the diet links and use it. If you want to learn over time and research other diets you can do so. But at least get them on a well-tested diet for now so you know they will be healthy.

I fed my gliders BML for about a year. About 2 weeks ago I switched to another diet that one of my glider's breeders has used for years with success and was approved by several vets. I like the diet I am using now more because it uses a more natural source of protein (it uses boiled chicken and optional egg) and has other natural ingredients (such as eucalyptus pollen and acacia gum) from gliders' natural habitats. So far my gliders have been doing a better job eating it than the BML.

But again, this is my personal preference. It is not to say this diet is "better" than other diets.

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#370496 - 08/25/07 07:58 PM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


The problem with the diet you are feeding is that the ratios and exact value of the minerals have not been figured out.. So when you THINK that your gliders are getting enough calcium, they may not be. The problem is that PHOSPHOROUS (which is in many veggies) stops the absorbtion of calcium, so you can suppliment all you want, but they can not absorb it if you are feeding veggies with a high phosphorous value, LIKE CORN..

ALSO, bugs do not have a lot of protien. In the wild, gliders eat eggs and small animals/babybirds. A glider will not think twice about eating a small mouse.

There is no one diet better than another.. its really your and your glider's preference. I was on the BML for a while, but my gliders started to boycott it so i changed to the HPW diet which i am still learning about..

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#370513 - 08/25/07 08:26 PM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: ]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
I picked a diet because I don't like math. I don't want to figure out the Ca:P ratio, the protien % and fruit and veggie %, the vitamins, etc.

I personally like BML - no guess work. But my gliders didn't. Now I use HPW - more freedom on fruits and veggies, but now I have to keep in mind Ca:P ratios of those.

With the 'sprinkle' method you are using, you can get too little or too much. Both are bad for gliders. I'd rather not take risks with my babies...let someone else do the research.
_________________________
Molly, son & husband:

Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
Sam, Diego, Delilah, Delia :wfb:
Nevada, Noel
Marcel, Dakota, Latte
Dexter, Didi, Almond, Joy and Fitz
:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:

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#370533 - 08/25/07 09:17 PM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: Mel2mdl]
jungleflockmom
Unregistered


In their natural habitat, gliders don't eat a lot of fruit. In fact, they eat very little. And small mammals like mice are very rarely encountered as gliders live very high up in the tree canopy. They eat insects, flowers and the berries of the eucalyptus and acacia trees in which they live. The taller the tree, the more concentrated the fructo and oligosacchrides in the eucalypt leaves and bark sap. When figs are in season and the fig trees are tall enough, they do eat a lot of figs (which are high in calcium.

Each glider's diet needs to be carefully balanced for nutrients so that the glider will remain healthy over a lifetime. Fruits and veggies need to be carefully chosen and combined to maximize the absorbable nutrients the glider receives. And complex carbs from other sources are important, too. As is adequate protein and American outdoor bugs and mealies won't provide this.

Since gliders have complicated nutritional needs and no one formulated food can supply all of them, check out the diets here on GC. They are a good place to start and your glider may like one so much that you stick with it.

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#370614 - 08/25/07 11:46 PM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: ]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Actually, insects are a pretty good source of protein. Crickets are about 20% protein (compared with 33% for chicken breast or 12% for chicken babyfood). This is signifiantly higher than any of the Leadbeater's mixes (BML, PML, HPW, etc.).

You can find values for lots of insects here:
http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf

To calculate the total protein, you need to multiply DM by CP and divide by 100 to get % total protein.
DM = percent dry matter
CP = crude protein as % of dry matter


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#370623 - 08/26/07 12:02 AM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: blockamon]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
As for my diet, the basic idea is to mimic the Taronga Zoo diet. I'm still working on the exact amounts and fruit / veggie combos. I eventually want to have at least four or so worked out and fed on a rotation. Maybe the "South Beach" plan Lucky_Glider has worked out for the HPW diet will help in that arena.

Anyway, the basics are:
- Leadbeater's Mix (PML with 1 Tbs. bee pollen added, this provides the general vitamin and mineral supplement)
- A staple pellet (either New World Primate or Insectivore Fare)
- A protein source (chicken, turkey babyfood, yogurt in rotation)
- Fruits or veggies (mixed up and alternating days)

I also add a calcium supplement to offset the phosphorus from the meat.

Oh yeah, I don't use insects because they are (1) high in phosphorous, (2) high in fat (meal worms), (3) carry risk of aflatoxin (crickets), and most of all (4) just plain icky. Nothing that hops or crawls comes in this house unless it has big, floppy ears or lives underwater (I have an aquarium). As for canned bugs; not in my refrigerator...Honey, would you like the onion dip or the crickets?



Edited by blockamon (08/26/07 12:07 AM)

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#370736 - 08/26/07 08:58 AM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: blockamon]
melek007 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 3874
Loc: Eastern NC
I chose the SunCoast diet after reading about it because it was designed by an exotic vet who worked with a breeder; and the ingredients, cost, preparation. All of the gliders at SunCoast are on it and it has worked for them.
All three of my gliders enjoy it. Some say their gliders won't eat the ZooKeeper's Secret, not a problem with us!
I read about the ZooKeeper's Secret (aka Insectivore Fare) and feel confident with that product. Many other diets use fruits, vegetables, and insects (such as mealworms), so that part isn't anything special in glider diet. I don't mind keeping an eye on calcium/phosphorus ratios in foods, and I've gotten down how much of the vitamins to add (I was a bit nervous about that in the beginning).
This diet is awesome for us, but that doesn't mean it is the best diet. Like others have said, there are many proven glider diets and they are all good.


Edited by melek007 (08/26/07 08:59 AM)
_________________________
~ I miss my Alev, Nese & Levent ~

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#370739 - 08/26/07 09:17 AM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: melek007]
jungleflockmom
Unregistered


I guess I should have said that insects only as the protein source would require feeding something other than mealies and the quantity of insects would have to be large. Gliders in nature spend most of their awake time and get most of their exercise foraging for food. Their diet also varies a lot depending upon changes in availability of insects, eucalypt and acacia flowers, etc.

My gliders' very most favorite food is fresh eucalypt flowers.

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#370744 - 08/26/07 09:29 AM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: ]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
Okay - where do you get those? Also, do you peel the figs before feeding?
_________________________
Molly, son & husband:

Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
Sam, Diego, Delilah, Delia :wfb:
Nevada, Noel
Marcel, Dakota, Latte
Dexter, Didi, Almond, Joy and Fitz
:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:

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#370763 - 08/26/07 10:35 AM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: Mel2mdl]
jungleflockmom
Unregistered


I live where eucalypt flowers bloom on the trees but it is only about 4 weeks each year. Figs are available fresh in season and dried from bulkfoods.com. I also get bee pollen, etc there.

I try not to feed too much dried fruit - I don't think it's that fab for the teeth.

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#370779 - 08/26/07 11:17 AM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: ]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
Well, I had gotten some figs (and a Mango) yesterday. The figs weren't very good. I peeled them and sliced them for the gliders - not a bite. The mangos were GONE from both cages.

I don't think the figs were good, though...
_________________________
Molly, son & husband:

Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
Sam, Diego, Delilah, Delia :wfb:
Nevada, Noel
Marcel, Dakota, Latte
Dexter, Didi, Almond, Joy and Fitz
:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:

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#370857 - 08/26/07 01:42 PM Re: "The diet discussion" [Re: blockamon]
prjctsphynx
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: blockamon
Actually, insects are a pretty good source of protein. Crickets are about 20% protein (compared with 33% for chicken breast or 12% for chicken babyfood). This is signifiantly higher than any of the Leadbeater's mixes (BML, PML, HPW, etc.).

You can find values for lots of insects here:
http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf

To calculate the total protein, you need to multiply DM by CP and divide by 100 to get % total protein.
DM = percent dry matter
CP = crude protein as % of dry matter


This is just a quick post ill post a longer one later. As far as bugs being a low sorce of protein... I know thats not true as I have eaten bugs to survive in combatzones, and training alike. Certain bugs contain more protien then their weight in fish, chicken, or beef. Its just that those bugs are not usually available in your local pet store. So you must be careful which ones your choosing, as some bugs have other amino acids and things that may be bad for gliders. (I personally dont intend to do the guess work on that one if he like crickets, mealies, and pinkies. Then I think thats enough.) Lets just stick to crickets, and mealies.
any whoo more laters

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