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#37518 - 02/21/05 11:32 AM Rejected joey?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a female that had joeys oop on 02/17/05, this is her first babies. Last night one of the babies was out of their sleeping pouch, on the bottom on the cage, both parents and the other joey were in their sleeping pouch. The joey looked fine, not signs of injury, so not knowing what else to do I placed him back with his parents. He was fine when I checked on them later, but I was horrified to see him dead and mostly canibalized this morning.
Was finding him out on the cage floor a sure sign of rejection? Should I have not put him back with them? They seemed fine when I placed him in there with them. When I left this morning the other baby was ok. I feel horrible about loosing the one joey and will do what ever I can to keep the other one safe.
Was I wrong in putting him back in there? How closely do I need to watch the other one?
These parents are fairly tame, not extremely tame. So they are not thrilled about me messing with them a whole lot.
Any advise would be GREATLY APPRECIATED.

Marsha

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#37519 - 02/21/05 11:40 AM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I would have also put him back with his parents. It is hard to say why this happened but some possible causes could be..
Mom doesn't have enough milk.
Mom has some problem going on with her pouch (possible infection where it makes it painful to nurse)
Something was genetically wrong with the one joey and the parents did what nature taught them to do.

I would keep a close eye on them and if in doubt, take them to the vet just to make sure there isn't a problem with Mom.
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The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#37520 - 02/21/05 11:40 AM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You did nothing wrong honey! You always want to try & let Mom & Dad take care of the joeys. Yes, it probably was a sign that they didn't want him around anymore, but you had no way of knowing that. If the other joey is left alone in a similar situation, I would pull him & start supplementation. You can find all the info you need in a sticky note at the top of Breeding & Babies. I would go ahead & make sure that you have everything you need since they've already cannabalized once. Also, you need to know that sometimes Mom & Dad will cannabalize or reject if a joey is sick or if there is something else wrong with it. It's just natural order. Keep a close eye on this little one & let us know if you need any help. I haven't had to supplement a joey myself, but there are plenty on this board with experience!

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#37521 - 02/21/05 11:59 AM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I am so sorry about the loss of the little one. It is very sad and painfull to loose little ones.

Babies who venture oop. at only a few days oop. usually do so as they are hungry and looking for food elsewhere due to the fact the mother is unable to nurse him either because she does not have a good milk supply or physicaly there is a problem with her to where she is unable to nurse. Babies then sort of pine away....one by one.

When found out of the nest....usually they are cold and thin looking with the tummies showing no milk in them. They sometimes will be wrinkled looking as well when flipped over. This is mostly from dehydration and may be difficult to turn the situation around unless one seeks the help of a vet or is able to sub-q fluids of D5w.

May want to consider supplementing the other joey at a min of two times a day to help ward off possible starvation to the second baby. Refer to the Sticky...Post with a Yellow Tac as to "How to Handfeed a Joey" which is in this forum.

Good Luck with the remaining little one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Judie (02/21/05 12:06 PM)

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#37522 - 02/21/05 01:12 PM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks so much for the responses. I have read the post on handfeeding a joey, but hope I won't need to use that information. I do plan to purchase everything to have on hand just in case.
Thanks for reassuring me that trying to place him back with Mom and Dad was a good idea - I knew that he would be better off if they cared for him, and prayed he would be ok.
I really appreciate your input and I will be back with updates, and maybe more questions.

Marsha

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#37523 - 02/21/05 02:57 PM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
If you have trouble using a syringe, you might want to feed this way. It is shown in a movie on my website. I find this way is much easier and the gliders take to it better. I actually use the syringe and French Cathetar to put the milk into my palm to regulate the flow. Some joeys will not know how far to put their head down and they are not coordinated enough. You will have to regulate when their head bobs up and down with your other hand. You might need someone else to put the milk into your palm so you don't have to take your hand off the joey. The joeys will eat in 5 minutes even at 1 day old. It is more natural to them because it is more like going into the mother's pouch. I have saved three day old babies this way. It works really well with newborns as some don't don't know how to lick only suck. They actually suck out of your palm and do so quickly. I prefer using the milk over the Baby BML now because you can actually see the milk in their tummys and know when they are full, because they will overeat. It is not a bad idea to do this to the existing baby a couple of times a day until the mother gets over this hump. There are many reasons why she doesn't nurse, but I think it is more because of what the joey does than what she does. If a joey sleeps through one feeding, it is weaker and at a day old they eat ever 10-15 min. When it is too weak, it is disoriented and can't smell the source for the milk or are too week to hang on to the nipple. Most of the time the mother is not sick and she does love her joey. It is not that she doesn't want it. It kills the baby to hide the remains to keep the cage area clean and free from preditors or disease. Here is the movie. It is at the bottom left corner.
Baby eating
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USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

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#37524 - 02/21/05 06:12 PM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sheila, thanks for your input. I visited your page and you have some wonderful information.
Thanks to everyone, however when I got home this evening the other baby had died as well. I am so sad!
That does raise another question for you all, since she these first babies didn't make it, what are the chances of success the next time? I would really hate to go through this again. I really want what's best for my gliders. They all get BML with a good variety of fruits and veggies, they have large cages, and they are very spoiled. I feel sure I couldn't have done anything differently. I know all gliders are different, but how have your experiences gone breeding again after loosing joeys?
This pair has only been together for about 4 months, but seem very happy together (both were quite the grump-butts before), they seem much happier with a mate.

MANY THANKS,
Marsha and the gang

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#37525 - 02/21/05 06:42 PM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Since it was on the floor of the cage, I'd say that it was rejected. For what reason I can't say for sure, but it may have been because mom wasn't able to support it, it got weak, and they "disposed" of it...I'm really sorry you had to go through it! It's tough. It is a natural act of self preservation for them to eat the joey after it is very cold and lifeless. In nature, they'd have to get rid of the carcass the best they could to ward off predators, or so I've been told, it makes sense to me. It's not a nice thing to have to see at all... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Your glider was a first time mom, so it could have been lack of experience, but in my opinion, you might want to supplement her food next time around or try another diet. diets don't exactly exhibit the same result with each glider. Although she was on a diet that works very well for most, another diet may suit her better for breeding. Also, she just may not be into being a mom. If she is unsuccessful again, I'd consider neutering the male.
Hope that helps <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#37526 - 02/21/05 11:50 PM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
I don't know if you use a dry food for your diet, but one is necessary for breeding. It adds about 25 % more protein to the diet which is needed for breeding moms. I am sorry about the babies. About 75% of the time the second one is also rejected. Next time if you have a single, you have a better chance. It is less stressful to the mom, and does not rob her of as much energy. When the time comes, email me again and I will walk you through it. Maybe by then I will learn some new tidbits. Again, I am sorry for your loss. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#37527 - 02/21/05 11:55 PM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


What dry food do you suggest Sheila?
Mine always LOVE the bugs and berries when I mix it in their food! I haven't gotten it in ages....but they did like it.

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#37528 - 02/22/05 12:11 AM Re: Rejected joey? [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Many people don't feed mealies or crickets. We use Mazuri New World Primate. Also, for the little babies, Pet Pro breeders Formula is in small pieces.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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