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#376075 - 09/03/07 03:37 PM Wet Gliders
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
When gliders are found wet in closed pouches, do we know what this is? From what I've read, this happens most often when a glider has been shipped. I know sometimes it is assumed that it's urine or sweat, but gliders don't sweat enough to soak themselves and a pouch, right?

Is it vomit? In USMom's recent post about vomiting, Suz said that her Carina would vomit when she was in a closed pouch and she would end up soaking wet. Is this the likely explanation? I haven't really seen anyone come to that conclusion whenever a glider arrives wet, but maybe I've just missed it. Suz said that Carina vomited due to stress, is this why shipped gliders end up like this?

*Nothing like this is happening to me or anything, just some other posts sparked my interest.

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#376079 - 09/03/07 03:49 PM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: glidergrl1513]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I don't know what it is, but I've seen it happen.

I associate that wet look with the beginnings of heat exhaustion. Usually, by the time they are wet looking like that, it is close to being too late. Although, there have been some pulled back from that state.

Gliders who I've heard of in that wet state are also usually dehydrated. Which implies there is some dramatic loss of hydration - vomiting could be the cause?
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#376083 - 09/03/07 03:55 PM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: ValkyrieMome]
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
Quote:
Gliders who I've heard of in that wet state are also usually dehydrated. Which implies there is some dramatic loss of hydration - vomiting could be the cause?


That's what I was thinking, here is another recent experience. The glider arrived wet and was dehydrated and extremely thirsty.

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/373474#Post373474


Edited by sugarlope (11/01/08 03:05 PM)
Edit Reason: fixed link

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#376091 - 09/03/07 04:15 PM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: glidergrl1513]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Yes- I have read that post.

There was also the instance where Jen (Xfilefan) (I think it was Jen) had her glider out during the day, and checked on him to find him in a state of heat exhaustion/heat stroke.

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/346325/fpart/1


Edited by sugarlope (11/01/08 03:06 PM)
Edit Reason: fixed link
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#376162 - 09/03/07 07:52 PM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: ValkyrieMome]
7glider7
Unregistered


The wet gliders was something I looked into when I did the pouch research study but I didn't gather enough info in time to post it in the results.

Many who have lost gliders suddenly in the pouch have found them wet, and some who have possibly come close to losing gliders due to heat exhaustion have reported them being wet when they found them.

Gliders only have sweat glands in their feet (Jen or Xfilefan's vet recently confirmed this for us), so it is very unlikely that all of this liquid is sweat.

An idea I had was that perhaps it was a release of urine or other bodily fluids after the glider had passed away. I have been unfortunate enough to observe several deaths when I worked with a vet, and it was not uncommon for liquids to leave the body when the animal died and the muscles are no longer really "working" to hold it in. I thought perhaps this could be the case.

However, loss of control in this manner this wouldn't really explain why gliders who almost passed from heat exhaustion would also be wet (presumably, being conscious, they could still hold this in).

Furthermore, Jen, who had a close call with one of her gliders, reported that this liquid was odorless, so it is unlikely that it is urine, and probably also unlikely that it is vomit (although this is not out of the question).

Jen talked with her vet and then got back with me...her vet felt that most likely, since a glider who is overheating can't sweat to control their body temperature, they may be panting to try to cool themselves and hypersalivating as a result. In other words, they may either be salivating on themselves intentionally to cool themselves down, or it could be saliva all over them as a byproduct of them trying to pant to cool down.

This to me was the most likely explanation since it would be an odorless liquid and also fits into the picture of a glider trying to cool itself.

The truth is we don't really know.

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#376189 - 09/03/07 08:51 PM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: ]
Ginharrison
Unregistered


idea I think that it would be very beneficial if someone out there with the equipment and knowledge in Stats would document the information below. This kind of information could very well save a Gliders Life. Just was wondering what every one else thought?

1. A glider going through the dieing process.
2. Measure moisture in the cage throught out whole process.

This could tell you if any of your theries are correct or if not you will still have a video to document the dieing process. You will then have knowlege of what might save a glider life.

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#376258 - 09/03/07 10:35 PM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: ]
Holly1221 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 2321
Loc: Maryland
[font:century gothic] clap Hollis, you are so thoughtful && insightful. when my Baxter (boxer) died this summer -sadly, right in front of me cry -, he didn't lose any bodily functions as a result. so it may be a case of some do, some don't. however, i would think both Jen's experience && theories may have some validity. dogs pant to cool themselves down, so why not gliders ? to me, that makes sense, they are using a last ditch effort to cool themselves enough to make it. but as we know, gliders do not display thier illness "very well" until it is almost too late.

looking back on certain things... i don't think we should be shipping ANY ANIMAL in the summer or into any state where the temperatures are high. i mean really, why risk it ?

just my input on things....[/font]
_________________________
Holly & Jeff heart
Misos Phoenix Keegan Knuckles // Asa Etienne Kyrian // Cheyenne Peyton Godiva

RIP my sweet gangel babies, mommy loves you!

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#376266 - 09/03/07 10:50 PM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: Holly1221]
7glider7
Unregistered


Well, Ginharrison, I think you have the right idea that more scientific evidence would be needed to draw a conclusion, but I don't really think we can create a study that would gather that kind of evidence...at least not that I can think of.

Moisture in the cage wouldn't really tell you much of anything at all...you'd need to know about moisture levels in the pouch. I think I might of misunderstood your post...we can't really measure this while a glider is dying, because obviously if we knew a glider was dying of heat exhaustion, we'd want to save it, right?

What would be more telling perhaps is if someone lost a glider and it was wet, collecting a sample of the fluid and bringing it to a vet for analysis. Sweat, urine, saliva, etc. would all have different compositions, and you would probably be able to tell where the fluid was coming from in the glider's body. This in turn might lead to more information about why this is happening.

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#376289 - 09/03/07 11:56 PM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: ]
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
Good points Jen thumb The panting and hyperventilating does make sense in some/many cases. But in order to create that much moisture (maybe some people have different ideas of what is "soaking" and I could be imagining it being much wetter than it actually is) could they really use up all that saliva? I'm having trouble picturing a glider soaking itself and its pouch with just saliva. Maybe that's just me, though.

I do remember hearing that in some of the cases, the wetness was accompanied by a very foul smell. That's what would make me think vomit. But if the glider is throwing up mostly water, would it have that much of a smell?

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#376331 - 09/04/07 04:59 AM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: glidergrl1513]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
It's in the cases there is no smell or anything and they seem to be soaked with water I asked about. Here is what my vet said (and also she'd like necropsy results if this happens again-the pouch deaths):

Here is what she said when I said gliders have been dying in closed pouches, and sometimes soaking wet with no external source of water, and it doesn't appear to be pee or vomit, so excluding those two, which are also possibly part of it:

"Yes, gliders do only have sweat glands on their hands and feet. While it's not normal for them to pant to cool, they are capable of it. She thinks the wetness may be due to them trying to pant and hypersalivating all over themselves-in essence dehydrating themselves in that manner.

In discussing the pouches, she thinks (and here I'd had the chemical name wrong, but I was close) carbon MONoxide poisoning from their breathing is a good possibility. Necropsy is needed to confirm though-she said the mucous membranes would be BRIGHT RED if that is the culprit."

With Riker's recent close call, he wasn't wet, and the cause for his hypothermia was an out of control body temp, in hot weather, as a side effect of anesthesia. It took ice to cool him down-his body couldn't by itself.

Early in my glider years, though, I did have an incident with him in warm weather, where he was half wet, and it was not pee or vomit, and I took him out in shade and wiped him down with a cool cloth (and learned to be very cautious with them at temps 80 or over, or in a warm vehicle). I wondered then what the source was, as he was wet, but his pouch wasn't-so he didnt' throw up. If he had, it would have been the gliderade he'd been drinking, which would be sticky. I'd wondered then. There was no odor, no color, no stickiness, and the pouch itself was dry. Mostly his head/chest was soaked, some on his sides. It's possible he was also licking his body in an attempt to cool himself, and it wasn't working.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#376337 - 09/04/07 06:03 AM Re: Wet Gliders [Re: Xfilefan]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Now, keep in mind that I am trying to remember isolated incidents from 3 years ago, but this is what I recall of Carina's 3 vomiting episodes:
1) I put her into a closed bonding pouch for about an hour in the late morning.
2) I held her close to my body while I laid down due to severe chronic migraines. I was conscious the entire time, but lying down in a fetal position with Carina and her pouch against my chest.
3) I did not "feel" any abnormal movements in the pouch, just normal shifting and positioning.
4) Upon removal from her pouch, I noticed that she was soaking wet (totally drenched) on her head and upper body with no discernible odor*.
5) Her pouch was also wet on the inside, but not on the outside.
6) On the 3rd occurence, as I went to put her back in her cage, she jumped to the cage and immediately proceeded to vomit. The vomit was clear and had very little odor*. It was at that point that I knew what the cause of her becoming soaked within the pouch was.
7) With each occurence, her behavior was normal again and her appetite was completely normal by that evening.
8) After the 3rd occurence, I deduced that she was becoming extremely stressed from being confined within the pouch. After that, I would carry her in the bonding pouch but would not close it and would check in on her often while carrying her.
9) No further episodes occurred which led me to the conclusion that my hypothesis about her being stressed from the confinement was correct.

Edited to add:
*Please note that I do not recall there being an odor, but it is possible that there was. I have chronic sinusitis and so it is possible that I was unable to smell an odor if there was one actually present dunno


Edited by sugarglidersuz (09/04/07 06:07 AM)
Edit Reason: to add footnote about odor
_________________________
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:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


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