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#37810 - 02/23/05 07:14 PM Experimenting With Diets!
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Lots of you know that we take in rescues as well as gliders with health issues. Most of the health issues the gliders we take in have a root cause of poor diets. When I get upset about members posting about their experimental diets I am only thinking of the outcome for the gliders after a few years. There are glider owners who will see a new diet posted and jump right on it without realizing what the outcome can be. A poor diet may not show its effects for several months or even two or three years. But the damage is slowly being done to the gliders internal organs.

Here are a few examples of gliders that have come to us that were on poor diets.

Sammy, Sassy, and Suzy Q. These three gliders came to us and appearead to be healthy even though they had been on poor diets in the first part of their lives. Suzy Q was the one that was effected most. She at one time mutilated. She developed cataracts. Last week she died. She was with Melanie and her vet did the necropsy. He determined that what finally killed Suzy Q was the damage done to her organs from the poor diet she was on when she was young. Her diet had been corrected but it was impossible to reverse the damage that had already occured. Eventually the system went down to the point that she developed pneumonia and died.

Judie recently rescued Takara from a situation where she was also on a poor diet. She was calcium deficient to the point that all she could do was squirm around on the floor of the cage. Thanks to Judie and her vet they reversed the deterioration. Judie let us take Takara and she is improving but we are having a problem getting her to gain any weight. She probably weighs at least 20 grams less than she should at this stage of her life. And we are still faced with the problem of what health issues she will develop in the future.

Gypsy came to us with four broken legs as the result of not receiving enough calcium in her diet. The bones have now fused back together and she gets around pretty good. She is steadily gaining weight and we have high hopes for her. Again we are faced with the possibility of future health issues.

These are only three of the gliders that have recently had problems. I could write you a book on all the others that have problems tracing back to improper diets. As a result I get very narrow minded when I see people posting about their experiments with different diets that have not been proven. Sure they have to be proven. But leave the diet studies up to the professionals and not novices who have done a little research on the web. Most of the commercial glider products are promoted for one thing. Money! The good of the glider is not really an issue. Others seem to just want to impress people with their education and knowledge but this is not the way to do diet research.

So if you think I am hard nosed about diets, you are right. The gliders health and well being is not something to be playing mind games with. When you see a post on diets or someone suggesting different diets for your gliders please consider the source. Do the people making the suggestions have any long term experience with gliders and diets? What is the source of their information? Are they simply quoting you something they found on the Web or read in a book?

Remember, you are the provider and caregiver for your gliders. They are at your mercy and their health and well being depends upon the decisions you make. Love your gliders enough to take the time to make an intelligent decision about their lives. Not a decision based on fads or promotional gimmics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/needhug.gif" alt="" />

Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#37811 - 02/23/05 10:37 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
I hear ya Charlie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />. One reason I have stuck with the same diet (and o boy I have struggled with my 4 to eat properly), is when they pass, and if it is diet related, I will have my own answers. If I flip flop around with diets, then I really won't know anything <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />. May sound a tad morbid, but there just aren't enough answers out there regarding diets yet, so I am comfortable with my decision, right or wrong.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#37812 - 02/24/05 06:50 AM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> Charlie!
We take in big number of rescues here also. Most have not been on a good diet and its sad to see the condition of some of the gliders that come in. Here are a few of the ones that touched me the most:

Nalla: Her owner hadn't touched her in 3 years. Her diet was what ever he ate and he would just drop a piece of food thru the cage bars. She was one of the untouchable gliders who didn't trust humans. Her fur was greesy, but dry and very thin, her tummy fur was very yellow. Nalla took to the BML diet on the first night. Nalla is now one of my sweetest girls, she loves for me to handle her and give her attention.

The 7 dwarfs: Just in recently, this colony of 7 gliders diet was 1/2 gerber chicken stick a night! The owner told me the vet told him thats was what to give..goes to show you some vets don't do any reserach. This is thier first week on the BML diet. Although they look healthy we aren't sure what damage may have been done by the onion and garlic in the chicken sticks. They all ready look in better condition, a few of the gliders are very small in size and I am giving additional calcium in fear of HLP in this group.

Chip & Dale: Chip and Dale were rescued quite some time ago, thier diet was parrot food and cat food, along with some moldy crackers in the bottom of the cage. They both were Neon Orange! They took to the BML diet instantly. After 3 months on the diet their tummys were white. Chip and Dale are white tips, so if you think someone cares for thier colored gliders better, its not always true.

Hope: Found living outside next door to a large breeder she had been on a diet of cat food. Her fur was oily, and she had self mutilated. After surgery and time with Mary and Charlie, she returned home and is doing well. She loves the BML diet and is just the cutest little girl, even with no tail.

I have taken in over 75 gliders in the past year, all eat the BNL diet well. One came in and didn't like it at first, but I frosted it and added mealies and he gobbled it up. After time I phased out the mealies and he gets those in the morning now. When I hear that people say they are creating thier own diets I shudder..its hard to see HLP, broken bones and all, and a sick, overweight or malnurished glider needs a high degree of rehab which most people can't handle. Just do research on the diet you choose, your babies are depending on you!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Angie

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#37813 - 02/24/05 10:53 AM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> to you both, you do such a wonderful job.!!! I too feel like KarIn, I have one diet and plan to stay with it for those same reasons. It is truly a scary thing, all this new stuff going around, in the end we all must choose what is best for our little ones. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> all!

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#37814 - 02/24/05 11:04 AM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Could you please read my post and give me some insight on it. Thanks

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#37815 - 02/24/05 11:15 AM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think you rescuers do a wonderful job, but I also think you need to keep in mind that as a rescue, the gliders you get in are going to be the worst of the worst. I feel that it's important to try new diets because there is always room for improvement. I agree that not just anybody should start creating and testing diets, but for example, BigErn, who has studied glider diet, tested his diet, and has had good results with his diet. I feel it's important to the community that he share his diet and that those interested not be afraid to test it out. Just like with any diet, animal or human, there are going to be people that swear by one or another, but how can you really know what works best without trying several of them? I personally have tried the suncoast diet, BML, fresh food diets, and a few different processed diets. In the end, I've settled on Darcy's diet because it works best for me. My gliders are happy and healthy. Their fur is nice and thick, they are maintaining a nice body weight and they eat their food every night...

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#37816 - 02/24/05 12:32 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />
I have considered other diets and consulted with 2 different vets on diets. We felt that Darcy's diet was too high in carbs, and came to the conclussion this diet would only be feed to severlly ill gliders as a last resort. Other diets are too high in Phos and too low in calcium and vit D, which is a great concern for me.
Some of the gliders I have taken in had been on the BML diet at one time, most of the reasons the owners stopped was either "they wouldn't eat it", or that "they couldn't afford it". (for 2 gliders the cost is very small- <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />). All but one of these gliders took to eating the BML as soon as it was offered by me which leads me to believe the owners really didn't want to be bothered with prepairing it. (The glider who didn't like it at first was tricked into eating it and now loves it.) The gliders were then put on their own made up diet or a dry/semi dry diet that was much cheaper, 3 were on cat food. 6 of the gliders had only been offered the BML diet for 3 days and were given large amounts of other foods such as veggies and fruit, and too many treats, which they ate first of course, after 3 days the owners gave up instead of continuing to try frosting, ect. The owners offered too many different foods in too large amounts. Unfortunetly, the vet bills we spent on these gliders may have been avoided if the owners hadn't changed to cheap unproven diets. The owners reasons for getting rid of the gliders ranged from not enough time to care for them, thier family had changed and they no longer wanted the gliders, and the most common, we didn't really know what we were getting into and they are not for us.
When someone gets a new pet they should know how to care for the pet, diet, housing and such. This is why we encourage research before buying. I would say that at least half of our rescues came from educated owners which is very sad. We have had some rescues that came in that were very well cared for, these owners researched and learned how to best care for the gliders, and just couldn't keep them any longer due to life style changes, I say well done to these owners! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> They just wanted them to go to a home that they knew they could trust and would love thier babies like they did and wanted us to screen new potential owners if we were unable to keep them.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Angie

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#37817 - 02/24/05 03:05 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Leyna, the big ern diet you refer to is a prime example of dietary experimentation. Reading a few books and studying on the web in no way qualifies a person to be a dietician. I do not mean to be picking on any one individual but I am addressing the glider community in general. Unless you have the education and background plus consult with others who are qualified to formulate diets you should leave it alone. The interaction between vitamins and minerals is so complicated that it is something that should be left to the professionals.

Gliders can live and be seemingly healthy on an assortment of diets. But past history has proven that over a period of time problems will arise. And in the case of the diet you are useing. If you will check you will find it was formulated for a special needs glider and is not recommended to be fed to healthy gliders on a daily basis. And in the case of Big Ern's diet he posted recently that he had to alter the amount of pollen he was feeding because it was discoloring his gliders coat. If it was discoloring the fur what do you think might have been happening to the internal organs? He doesn't have a clue and neither do you.
To present a group of gliders with a food stuff and say well they ate it, they like it and they aren't dieing so it must be a good diet. Sorry but that is not diet research.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#37818 - 02/24/05 03:40 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Charlie, I was totally going to leave your thread alone, but.....
What do you suggest I feed my gliders since they hate BML?
Should I just let them starve since according to you, no other diet is "PROVEN"?

Where do you suggest I get my information?
If books and the internet are not valid sources then what is? If you can't even consider studies performed by experts as qualified info, then I don't know what will appease you. You have absolutely NO idea the lengths that I have gone to research. I'd honestly appreciate it if you'd stop making assumptions and discrediting me!

Who is qualified to make a glider diet that cares enough to do it?
What made Bourbon any more qualified than I to create her BML?
Who is an expert by your definition?

You say how people aren't qualified enough to state what is adequate, then how can YOU state what is inadequate?

I NEVER try to sell people on my diet at all!
I waited to let it public for a reason!
I actually did not initiate it's release on the board myself, someone else did.
You will NEVER see my gliders with HLP!
If you knew anything about ACACIA GUM, you'd know that it actually increases and aids in CALCIUM ABSORPTION....
Why do you think that gliders have managed to survive in the wild for millenia without HLP?
You will NEVER have to take in and rehabilitate a glider that I have bred!

Can you point out what areas my diet is lacking in to help affect it positively? I'd appreciate it if you would contribute something positive to it and use your knowledge to help CREATE something.....
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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#37819 - 02/24/05 04:37 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
This seems to being going on the path of going to be closed. We have rules like rule 3. diet bashing will not be allowed no matter what diet it is. This thread was started with the purpose of all experimental diets and not picking on just one. So lets just keep it that way. Lets keep this civil and not a bashing on one are any diet out there. If there is a personal conflict take it off the board.
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#37820 - 02/24/05 04:43 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Sugar_Mama Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/26/03
Posts: 4321
Loc: Central FL
Please keep in mind that this discussion has to stay civil and not defensive or it will have to be closed. Please be sure that your post does not break rules 3, 4, or 5 before submitting. The GC staff would like to keep this thread open as much as you all do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Edit: Sorry Eddie, you beat me to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Sugar_Mama (02/24/05 04:44 PM)
_________________________
~Rischa~
My Sugar Babies
Photos & Videos

Rest peacefully until I see you at the bridge, Sweet Lillian. gangel Mommy, Daddy, and brother Philip miss you terribly.

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#37821 - 02/24/05 05:03 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
One point that I would like to stress is, with a "newer" diet, it is impossible to know the repercussions right away ie: possible internal organ damage and/or long term health. Two or three yrs. is just not long enough. Personally, I don't believe BML has been around long enough either to know these answers either, but at least there is some history to go by.
Gliders can survive and look healthy on alot of foods, we see that in the rescues.
diets are extremely frustrating, and I just hope a new owner doesn't become so confused that they just jump on any bandwagon thinking they are doing the right thing. Research, and then research some more <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#37822 - 02/24/05 06:33 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I fully agree that the BML is probably not the ultimate diet. And I think that Bourbon is open minded enough to tweak it if studies show that it needs a fix. It is not my intention to attack any diet in particular. Just so happens that someone posted a question about a certain diet and it's creator and I tried to answer in a diplomatic manner.

My purpose for this post is to keep glider owners from experimenting with fad diets and ideas. We have seen too many gliders suffer as a result of people without sufficient knowledge formulating their own diets. It is true that no one can tell you the exact amounts of various nutrients that the ultimate glider diet should contain. But the BML diet is the most successful diet we have found. And if you will notice most of the other diets use it as a measuring stick to come up with their own versions.

I have no personal vendetta against anyone. My only concern is the well being of the gliders. And when I see someone with a very basic knowledge of the gliders needs posting as an authority I do get a little upset. We have spent years trying to repair damage done to gliders by people with good intentions.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#37823 - 02/24/05 09:20 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I wanted to say I enjoy reading the rescue stories you all post here. It is so touching to hear, and I appreciate them lot because after I read them I always go and give mine a big kiss on the head and smile as they run to hop on my shoulder. I'm glad I have a community who cares enough about what others feed their gliders and cares that others pets are healthy too.

Charlie you are right that just reading doesnt make one a dietitian. I would make a suggestion. Sometimes posts like these sound a bit discouraging for someone who wants to do research. It makes people afraid to search for new knowledge and that is a tragedy.

Instead of saying dont experiment w/ diets at all, I think a better thing to imply is dont experiment on your gliders! I think for those who want to research lets encourage them to do so, but do it on paper. All successful diets are well planned out. Dietitians in hospitals and clinics dont say "ok eat some of this and that..lets see if you get thinner or not, or lets see if you have another heart attack" No way would we be alowed to do that. Instead dietitians carefully plan diets. The same should be encouraged for people here. If you want to make a glider diet, do a LOT of reasearch. Write your diet down, write the analysis of all the nutrients and such down, including the feeding schedule, and then post it. This way people here can offer constructive criticism and critique BEFORE the glider even touches the diet. Then, together, we maybe can begin to formulate another diet for those who dont like/ use BML, or for those who just want to try to expand their knowledge.

IF you are serious about formulating a diet, formulate it on paper first, and get some constructive criticism from experts. Then it is safe for your gliders.

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#37824 - 02/25/05 03:14 AM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Very good post. I like your logic. I can live with that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#37825 - 02/25/05 07:37 AM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My only qualm is that BML originated as a diet for the Leadbeater's possum. The leadbeater used to be considered as the sugar glider's closest relative, but recent research has shown that they are very different - scientists are looking at their taxonomy to figure out the right classification for these possums. Therefore, I fear that the BML diet isn't as appropriate as once thought.

All THAT said, Big Ern's diet really isn't that different to BML. I see the added benefit of bee pollen and acacia gum, both huge percentages of the glider's wild diet. My opinions are based on books, yes, but they're books by noted zoologists that I checked out of my university library, and they include studies done on wild gliders by Australian scientists. Isn't the goal of all diets to provide a healthy replica of what the animal would eat in the wild?

How would we know anything without scientific experimentation? The sugar glider is unique, and every diet will effect each glider in a different way. Unfortunately, the only way to find out if a diet is good IS to test it on gliders. I think Ern has done his research and seen the results.

Posting here isn't always a good place to get criticism, especially if you're looking for an expert opinion. I'm offering my opinion here, and I would definitely not call myself an expert. I study gliders and I own them, yes, and I read every single piece of information I can get my hands on and make a judgement as to whether or not it's supported by quality data, but I'm definitely not an expert!

Every diet was new at one time. Every diet had to be fed for years before it developed a fan club. Ern would never do anything to hurt his pets, so let's give him a little credit and encourage him to add his experiences to what we know about glider diets. He could be wrong - at least we'll learn something. But he could also be very right, and then we'd all be better off, right?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />


Edited by playingdecoy (02/25/05 07:41 AM)

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#37826 - 02/25/05 09:33 AM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
I don't believe anyone meant to target Big Ern in this post, it is more a generalized post regarding all diets that are "experimental" at any given time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.
Noone ever listens to me when I post about diets <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />, but here's my thought. If we flip/flop diets, and our glider gets sick and we go to the vet....vet asks what diet are you feeding to help possibly diagnose...how can they help if given 4-5 different diet plans that were used? At this point in time, necropsies tell us alot, but what could they tell us if the glider has been fed 3-4 different diets. I would think it would be inconclusive for the most part if diet played a role in the death. Ok, I will quit now, thanks for listening.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#37827 - 02/25/05 10:21 AM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Karin, so true. Thats one of the reasons I have spent so much this year on vet care for the rescues that have come in. I will give you a few examples:

Sundown came to me from Mary and Charlie, he has always been on the BML diet, one day I noticed him out of the pouch, first this was strange for him as he usually sleeps all day, he was moving slow. We decided a vet vist was in order..by the time we got to the vet he had a siexue and stopped breathing for a few minutes, he was rushed back and placed in an O2 tank and meds were started. Within 10 minutes he had improved. 24 hours later he was home. Now all 5 vets that saw him all agree that becasue of the great diet he was recieving his resources were intact and his body and immune system were able to fight the infetion (it was bacterial pneumonia). We don't know what caused him to get it, but he was involved in a wheel accident the week before which may have caused him great stress.

Stitch -a rescue, never on the BML diet but on a dry staple food. Came in self mutilating. Even though treatment was started he lasted only 5 days, we all agree that he was underweight and had no resources left. His immune system was not able to fight the infection despite all we tried. Its very sad, I had great dreams for him and now he is at the bridge with many other beloved gliders who are missed by many people.

Its hard with the gliders not on a good diet, I am not saying that someday there will not be a better diet, but untill them we must be carefull about trying new diets, and keeping our gliders resources intact and healthy. These are just 2 examples, I have had only 2 of my own gliders ill, one when days after we got her, and then Sundown. My vet feels its becasue of good husbandry and a good diet, along with lots of TLC. Just be very careful, thats all I am saying. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Angie

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#37828 - 02/25/05 10:44 AM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Becca, do a little more reading. The Ledbetter diet was being used by an Australian zoo to feed sugar gliders although it was orginally formulated to feed the Ledbetter opossum. The BML used the Ledbetter as a rough guideline to produce a diet that was designed to use items that are readily available in the US. If you compare the two diets you see that there is a big difference.

As far as the books and their information about gliders diets in the wild. These are random observations and not truly scientific studies. It is practically impossible to do a scientific study on wild diets considering the variations due to seasonal changes. Plus the amounts of each item would have to be weighed and analysed before it was ingested and after it was passed through the gliders digestive and urinary tracts. The gliders would then have to be checked over a long period of time to see what effects the different food items had on their organs and other body functions.

Incidentally, even without the threat of predators gliders living in the wild have a life expectancy of no more than nine years. Compared to 14 or 15 years in captivity. The purpose of developing diets for captive anminals is not to duplicate their wild diets. The purpose is to improve upon the animals wild diet and give it the nutrition it needs for 12 months of the year. Not on a seasonal basis like a wild diet. Who is to say that gliders eat acacia gum, pollen, or insects 12 months of the year in the wild. These items are abundant during certain seasons and lacking in others. If all three are included into a captive diet and fed daily 12 months of the year we do not know what effect it may have.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#37829 - 02/25/05 01:11 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


From a graph in "Marsupial Nutrition", it appears that acacia gum makes up between 20-60% of a glider's diet year round (at its lowest in October, which is in Australia's spring, and its highest in January, the peak of Australia's summer). In fact, Eucalyptus sap is the most productive, least dispersed resource year-round, and Acacia gum is also heavily utilized in all seasons.

When measured, one tree produced 780 g dry weight of gum. 6 trees of this type would be sufficient to satisfy the annual energy requirements of one sugar gldier, based on the field metabolic rate measurements of Nagy and Suckling (1985).


The scientists have studied glider faeces, actually. They checked for pollen in the glider's waste and found that 34% of Eucalyptus pollen and 71% of Banksia pollen was completely devoid of contents, a tribute to the glider's ability to access the contents of pollen grains as a source of protein. The study followed one group of gliders throughout several years, documenting their eating habits over every month, every season.


Again, this data is from faecal scat analysis and direct observation.


I don't believe you should feed the same diet every day for 12 months of the year. That would cause serious health problems. If everyone did their research, they'd see that insects and arthropods make up a large part of the summer diet, whereas Eucalypt sap consumption varies widely depending on seasonal availability. In summer, gliders spend almost all of their time gathering pollen from Eucalypt flowers. In winter, that time is allocated to consuming banksia nectar. In spring, the food of choice is acacia gum. I think all owners should vary a diet according to the seasons. It's easy to adjust the amount of each ingredient in the staple diet. Feeding the same food every day year-round will be detrimental to your pet's health.


Edited by playingdecoy (02/25/05 01:19 PM)

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#37830 - 02/25/05 01:33 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />
I have a glider who is now 12 years old. He has been on the BML diet before I got him..he is very heathy and his health has not been damaged by feeding the same diet year round. Lets be careful about what we say and how we say it..people who are new to gliders hopefully won't take to feeding a vaired diet without doing alot of reasearch first along with talking to thier vet at the least. Considering we don't have the plants, insects and foods that wild gliders eat here and we will never have, I would not endorse a varied diet such as this.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Angie

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#37831 - 02/25/05 01:40 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh, I'm sorry, Angie, I honestly didn't mean to offend you or imply that you weren't being a good owner! I was just saying that feeding the same food every day to an animal whose diet varies so widely in the wild has to have some sort of effect, you know? It's just logical that Mother Nature knows best.

The BML diet is healthy, I'm sure! And it's done a lot of good things for a lot of gliders. I just want to see some encouragement and enthusiasm for progress. Things can always be improved upon, right? I think we, of all people, should be making this effort - this is an animal we all know and love and would do anything for, so why such negativity towards someone who's trying to improve on the knowledge we already have?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

No hard feelings, 'kay? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#37832 - 02/25/05 01:49 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
I love the idea of the varied diet, but would probably be light years from now if it is even possible <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, but being captive gliders, with a regulated temp. and environment day after day...as opposed to the wild glider's living free and experiencing the different seasons , shouldn't that be a consideration? Captive glider's live so differently than their wild cousins. I dunno, I said I would shush didn't I? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />
Karin
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#37833 - 02/25/05 01:52 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


No, Karin, I love that you have positive input! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> No shushing! That is a consideration, too. Something I found interesting is that the lowered percentage of protein in the winter diet is probably the reason wild gliders don't breed year-round. This is something I'd be willing to do, actually, as I worry that breeding twice as much as they do in the wild must have some sort of effect on the body. Of course, this is just me letting my mind wander - I don't have evidence to suggest that it's bad for a female to breed year-round. I was just thinking about ways to make the varied diet work better in captivity. Right now, my gliders breed year-round, probably because of the protein available from the chicken in their staple food. I'm interested in looking into this more, though. I think it's neat!

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#37834 - 02/25/05 02:02 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
No hard feelings Becca. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> Just worried about how new people will take things they hear. I think just about eveyone here wants only the best for thier gliders, after all they are like our children. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Karin, lol. I just <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> you! I can't wait to give you a <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> at the SGGA.
I really try to be objective about diets, but with all I have seen that most of you haven't, it makes me more cautious. Charlie, Mary and I, and many others, are cut from the same cloth for sure, we do all we can for those who gliders who come in and are on those strange or made up diets we just want to let eveyone else know what can happen if you arn't careful, even those with the best intentions can make big mistakes sometimes, we are human after all.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Angie

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#37835 - 02/25/05 02:27 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Xglider Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 11157
Loc: Tampa, FL
I Think I am going to just steer clear of this, the whole diet topic is just so explosive.

At least we can all agree on one thing we do what the best for our little ones. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
* ~ * John * ~ * Sorry store is closed at this time.. <br>
Link -> ~~ XtremeGlider ~~ Home of the original Re~set Toys! ~~ <br>
Oct 2012 update.. miss my gliders and my
glider family and think of my friends often!!!

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#37836 - 02/25/05 02:31 PM Re: Experimenting With Diets! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think you raise a really good point, Angie - new people! I think BML is a great diet for new people to start out on, because all the instructions and measurements are right there. Same with the other popular diets. We don't want to confuse people or make things too complicated. I guess I'm thinking more about people who've owned gliders for a while and done research on it. I started out on the BML diet - the breeder I got my first glider from recommended it. Then again, she sold me my first baby when she was only 5 weeks OOP. Just goes to show how many different camps there are when it comes to Doing The Right Thing! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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