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#378359 - 09/07/07 09:30 AM Sudden Hind leg paralysis
WholeheartMom Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 250
Loc: Reading to my girls in Florida
I breed suggies and sold two to a really nice lady. She just called me and I don't exactly know all the details, but she didn't follow the dietary instructions I gave her and one of the suggies is dead and the other has Hind Leg paralysis, diarrhea, and extreme lethargy.

I told her to go to the local suggie vet here and I am taking it upon myself to go with her. I want to make sure this vet does a good job. She has seen my suggies before but she gave me some bad advice and I question if her knowledge base about suggies is really current or not.

Anyway, I am going to suggest a fecal float, x-ray, neoglucagon and subq fluids. We are leaving soon and I need to know if there is anything else I am overlooking.

Please respond soon!!! I hope this suggie makes it. These were my first babies and I am devastated by their outcome.
_________________________
I am a homeschool mom to four girls and seven sugar gliders; an annoying ponderer of deep thoughts; a purposeful meanderer on walks and strolls; a prayerful wonderer and marveler; a friend to many small creatures, and an Undercover Agent for the Kingdom which cannot be shaken...Nice to meet you!

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#378363 - 09/07/07 09:41 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: WholeheartMom]
Leyna
Unregistered


Okay, let me see... So far you are having a Fecal Float, X-Ray, and Sub-Q Fluids...

I would also suggest a fecal smear (some times catches things that floats miss) and a urine analysis.

If the x-rays show deterioration in the bones, the glider will also need a sub-q dose of calcium as well, along with a high calcium oral supplement.

Also have the vet preform a culture and sensitivity. Then ask if the glider can be put on a broad spectrum antibiotic like baytril or torbitol.

I think that should hit all the bases.

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#378364 - 09/07/07 09:44 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: ]
WholeheartMom Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 250
Loc: Reading to my girls in Florida
Thank you so much.... I am almost in tears right now and I want so much for this little suggie to have a good outcome.

If anyone else has any advice, I am leaving in another 20 minutes, so don't hesitate to post.
_________________________
I am a homeschool mom to four girls and seven sugar gliders; an annoying ponderer of deep thoughts; a purposeful meanderer on walks and strolls; a prayerful wonderer and marveler; a friend to many small creatures, and an Undercover Agent for the Kingdom which cannot be shaken...Nice to meet you!

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#378366 - 09/07/07 09:56 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: WholeheartMom]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Excellent advice. Please keep us posted too hug2 . Has the glider been offered anything this morning? The only other thing I can think of is to offer some Pedialyte until you get to the vet. My prayers are with you all!

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#378385 - 09/07/07 10:36 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: Karin]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Oh Shoot! There was a post recently about someone's glider who developed the symptoms of HLP very suddenly. It ended up being something else - although the symptoms were the same.

Does anyone else remember that, and what the actual condition was?
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#378393 - 09/07/07 10:50 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: ValkyrieMome]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Please let us know how it goes. Good luck to you and your babies. And when you get back on here, take a minute to check the vet database and see if there is another available that you feel comfortable with.

_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#378422 - 09/07/07 11:28 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: USMom]
PeeperKeeper
Unregistered


Alden, I don't remember that post, but a lot of times when a glider has an infection, calcium can get thrown out of whack and they can manifest HLP.

Wholeheart, I'm sorry I didn't see your PM or this post until now. Leyna and Karin gave you some excellent advice. One thing I would add is that the diarrhea could be caused by giardia or trichomonads. These parasites are one of the things the vet would be looking for with the fecal float and smear, but they don't always show up, even when they are present. I've had a glider who showed 3+ out of a possible 4 on the grading scale (4 being so many that you can't hardly see any actual poop) for number of trichomonads one evening and the very next morning another vet checked and didn't see any. They just "shed" intermittently. The treatment for parasites would be Flagyl (aka metronidazole). It wouldn't hurt to put them on both metro and a good broad spectrum antibiotic.

The sub-cu fluids can work miracles on a dehydrated glider, but you still have to monitor them carefully and it may take more than one sub-cu. Some vets are willing to give you the supplies to be able to sub-cu them yourself if you feel you can. It's pretty easy on a lethargic glider or if you have someone who knows how to hold them still, but if they're wiggly, it's harder for a novice.


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#378445 - 09/07/07 12:07 PM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: ]
WholeheartMom Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 250
Loc: Reading to my girls in Florida
Update:

Just got back from the vet and I am not happy. The vet has been in surgery all morning and has lunch from 12-2 but she will agree to observe Tilly for a couple of hours until her lunch is over.

This glider is sick! She has the body language of a sick and dying glider.... ears are drooped, eyes are closing, and she is very lethargic, not eating or drinking. I told them she needs calcium right away but they won't give it until they observe her for a couple of hours.... YEESH!!!

Another thing is this 9 month old glider only weighs 51 grams and she has lost 4 gms in 24 hours. Her diet for the past 9 months has consisted of only raw veggies and mealworms, with rare fruit and no calcium or protein supplements.

Anyway, they wouldn't even let me talk to the vet (she is getting ready for her lunch break, you know) and they took the glider from us and left us in the waiting room. The receptionist told us that Tilly is moving her back legs so they don't think it is HLP. Well, gee, she was dragging them around earlier.... what gives??

Anyway, they told us to leave and come back in a couple of hours. They will observe her in that time span and figure out what they want to do.

We got a little forceful and told them that the suggie's cagemate died only 36 hours ago and that this suggie has been on a very poor diet for the past 9 months and she needs help right away, not in 2 hours. They just didn't get it, but they did agree that she was dehydrated and needed subq fluids so hopefully they will be doing that during this 2 hour "observation period" or should I say "death watch".

Anyway, we left and I will return in two hours.

My question is: If they say that she is moving her hind legs and does not have HLP, should I insist on an x-ray anyway? Would that show the damage from a poor calcium diet so that they would believe us and give her some calcium injections?

Also, should I insist on a UA and fecal smear as well as a fecal float?

I just am stupified by their lack of concern and I really want to be forceful but it is hard when all you get to talk to is the receptionist and not the vet.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

_________________________
I am a homeschool mom to four girls and seven sugar gliders; an annoying ponderer of deep thoughts; a purposeful meanderer on walks and strolls; a prayerful wonderer and marveler; a friend to many small creatures, and an Undercover Agent for the Kingdom which cannot be shaken...Nice to meet you!

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#378452 - 09/07/07 12:14 PM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: WholeheartMom]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
Oh, I don't blame you for being upset! Hopefully they are at least doing the sub=q's, as the dehydration can kill her quickly. Especially on top of everything else.

Can you call to check and make sure they are doing the sub-q
s? I know some vets shut their phones off during lunch. They say the squeeky wheel get the oil, so I would keep on them! JMHO.

Sending tons of prayers out. Please keep us posted.

I am so very sorry the other one didn't make it.


Edited by pappy1264 (09/07/07 12:14 PM)
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#378495 - 09/07/07 01:05 PM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: pappy1264]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
hug2 I am so terriably sorry to hear about the loss of the one and now this one being in such horriable shape.
I agree with Mary, be persistant with the vet! "It's your babies life not theirs and It's your dollar!" I would suggest that all the tests should still be done to rule out any other disease or problem with him.
Sending you tons of (((((hugs))))) and will keep your baby in my prayers. heart

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#378557 - 09/07/07 02:45 PM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: LSardou]
WholeheartMom Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 250
Loc: Reading to my girls in Florida
Okay... back from the vet again. The good news is that the vet agrees with me that it is HLP and that she is severely dehydrated. The bad news is that it is 3 hours later and she still hasn't administered the subQ fluids and calcium yet. Apparently, they had no calcium and had to call around to different vets to find it. They are sending someone out now to a vet clinic about 10 miles away to get some.

Fecal float/smear were negative for parasites but the vet said that there was evidence of a "bacterial shift". But overall, she doesn't feel that there is any infective issues going on.

She agreed that Tilly is severely dehydrated and now is constipated. She has an impacted bowel and needs some massage to help move things along. UA and culture could not be done because Tilly is so dehydrated that she is not urinating.

Tilly is also severely underweight at only 50 grams and needs to gain. The vet said that Tilly should be getting most of her calories from mealworms, which I silently disagreed with.

Anyway, the end results are: Tilly will receive Calcium injection and subq fluids at the vet, then will return home.

If anyone can answer the following questions I would be grateful:

1. The vet wants her rehydrated so I recommended Pedialyte via dropper. How much and how often should we administer it though? The vet was a little elusive and didn't give us a definite answer.

2. Do you agree that most of her calories should come from mealworms? I have recommended PML and made up a batch for them.

3. Can anyone explain what is meant by a "bacterial shift" in the fecal sample? I am a nurse and I am unfamiliar with that.

4. Should the vet give us a prescription calcium supplement to administer? She just told us to gutload the mealworms with calcium and that should suffice.

Once again, I am thankful for any help you can offer!
_________________________
I am a homeschool mom to four girls and seven sugar gliders; an annoying ponderer of deep thoughts; a purposeful meanderer on walks and strolls; a prayerful wonderer and marveler; a friend to many small creatures, and an Undercover Agent for the Kingdom which cannot be shaken...Nice to meet you!

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#378566 - 09/07/07 02:53 PM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: WholeheartMom]
TracyLynn
Unregistered


I am not a vet, but from what little experience I have had I would suggest not only Pedialyte by dropper if she will take it, but also in the water bottle so she can drink as much and whenever she wants to - I would up the protien portion of her diet and not overload her on mealworms - can't help with bacterial shift at all - but would suggest discussing neocal by dropper for a while - I have done that before & it seems to make a huge difference.

Good luck, it sounds like you have a long road ahead of you with this little one

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#378668 - 09/07/07 05:15 PM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
it sounds like possible clostridium have her do a fecal cytology i would put her on metro and baytril and a good diet. i would treat the glider yourself this girl dont sound like she will pull it thru

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#378694 - 09/07/07 05:58 PM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: the gliders angel]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
I would highly recommend until this little one is on her feet to feed the BML diet. It really can turn a sick glider around very quickly. Mealworms might upset her tummy if given too many being ill like she is. If she will eat them tho...they will fatten her up.

Also, this vet can show you how to administer sub-q fluids. sounds as if she won't be very cooperative about that tho mad .

I am sorry this vet experience today wasn't up to par....so frustrating!!!

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#378771 - 09/07/07 08:26 PM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: Karin]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
BML made a huge difference for Jackie Chan.

I just sent you a PM. I went through much the same with Jackie - needing to gain weight and to manage hind limb issues, etc. I know that you are dealing with a whole bunch of emotion. Just wanted to give a hug2. You have done a great job so far!

Don't hesitate to call if you need anything!
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#378941 - 09/08/07 01:29 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
WholeheartMom Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 250
Loc: Reading to my girls in Florida
Thanks guys for all your support!

Here is the latest. Tilly received her subq fluids and calcium injection and is now at home with her owner and strict orders for rehydration and calcium supplementation.

I just heard from her and she said Tilly is perking up and getting a little of her strength back. The swelling in her toes is subsiding a little, which is great news!

I recommended Pedialyte for rehydration but they decided to use fresh coconut water supplemented with repcal instead. I know all about coconut water and it is a great choice for humans... I drink it myself because it is identical to blood plasma, full of electrolytes and much more hydrating than any other drink.

But does that make it appropriate for suggies? The Ca:P ratio is 1:1, not quite the best for a suggie. I strongly suggested that they only offer it with the added repcal, never plain. They say that she really likes it and has been taking several dropperfuls.

I know BML is a great diet, but I use PML for my seven gliders and have never had a sick one yet. Do you think BML is superior for ailing gliders? This poor glider has had such a drastic dietary change in the past two days and I hate to change her diet again, but if you think the BML is a better choice I might consider it.

For now, I am keeping very close contact with the suggie owner who is actually quite upset with herself over her lack of compliance with my dietary instructions and the outcome of her negligence. She has shed many tears and apologized to me over and over again. She is determined to make this right for Tilly and I must say she has diligently stayed up for the past two nights feeding her almost hourly. Tonight will make the third night of intensive care and I know she is tired, but she is doing it without one complaint. I may take tomorrow night and stay up with Tilly for her if my family can spare me.

Anyway, just wanted to thank everyone and let you know that things are looking up, but we are not out of the danger zone yet. I will continue to keep you all informed and I am expecting to be posting some more good news soon!
_________________________
I am a homeschool mom to four girls and seven sugar gliders; an annoying ponderer of deep thoughts; a purposeful meanderer on walks and strolls; a prayerful wonderer and marveler; a friend to many small creatures, and an Undercover Agent for the Kingdom which cannot be shaken...Nice to meet you!

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#378947 - 09/08/07 01:36 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
take this one in your own care to get her back on her feet. it will take some work. but it sounds like clostridium that is a bacteria it will show up on a fecal cytology which is stress related and is an overgrowth of bacteria in their system. lay hands on her body as you are getting her back on her feet feed her every few hrs, with either bml or wombaroo mixed in a little chicken baby food she needs protein now. wombaroo has it all in there and the chicken will give her the extra protein off er some yogurt too. and ask for a miracle as you lay your hands on her. you will see her slowly regain her strength.

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#378985 - 09/08/07 05:40 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: the gliders angel]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Actually, with a glider with HLP, you want to go very, very LIGHT on the protein for the next few weeks. All of the protein sources we feed to gliders are HIGH in phosphorus, which takes calcium from the body. I'd recommend only a mealie here and there (3 or 4 a WEEK), no meats, no eggs, no other bugs, light on veggies (also phosphorus heavy). Otherwise, it will slow (or if fed enough negate) recovery. Go for fruits rich in calcium...honeydew, cantaloupe, papaya, extra yogurt daily, her staple, etc. As she gets well, GRADUALLY start putting the proteins and veggies back in.

Edit (helps if I manage to read things): she should have a supplement for the next 3 or 4 weeks. Neocalglucon or Calcium Glubionate are good oral ones.

She should NOT be getting most of her calories from mealworms (mostly phosphorus and fat). They are an addendum to the diets and mostly to keep the teeth cleaned and the glider happy. Staple, fruits, and veggies should provide the bulk of the calories. BML, PML, Ensure (Darcy's) or HPW are excellent for a glider recovering from HLP as a staple.

All gutloading worms will do is balance off the phosphorus in the worms...it won't provide nearly enough to rebuild her depleted levels so she can recover properly, if at all.

Quote:
The swelling in her toes is subsiding a little, which is great news!


Although it's one of the rarer symptoms, that is one that goes with severe HLP-swollen toes/fingers.

Please keep us updated...and if I were closer I'd whack your vet with something so she'd grow some common sense.



Edited by Xfilefan (09/08/07 05:49 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#379178 - 09/08/07 01:49 PM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: Xfilefan]
PeeperKeeper
Unregistered


One thing you mentioned was her constipation. Did the vet diagnose this from palpating the glider's abdomen? Is she moving her bowels? I ask because when Jeepers was very ill, she was originally diagnosed with constipation because the vet (not exotic specialist, but a friend who mostly does dogs and cats) felt a knot and thought it was an impaction. Jeepers eventually passed and the necropsy indicated liver damage. Now I think perhaps what the vet thought was an impaction was actually an enlarged liver. I'm not sure that's the case, but it's just something I've wondered about.

I would still ask for an x-ray if they didn't do that. It will confirm how severe the HLP is and I think it will also show if the liver is enlarged.

I agree to go easy on the mealworms. If there is liver damage, high protien can sometimes make it worse.

I would give her Pedialyte mixed with Glideraide, or just Glideraide to boost the calcium, unless the vet says not to do that with the Neocalglucon that I hope she's getting.

It really makes me ANGRY that the vet wouldn't sub-cu her right away. What was the matter with them?! She could very easily have died right there in their office when the sub-cu would have saved her. I'm so glad they EVENTUALLY gave it to her and brought her around. Keep up with rehydrating her. It often takes a long time before they are able to stay hydrated without forced liquids. Good luck!

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#380071 - 09/10/07 01:20 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: ]
WholeheartMom Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 250
Loc: Reading to my girls in Florida
Originally Posted By: PeeperKeeper
One thing you mentioned was her constipation. Did the vet diagnose this from palpating the glider's abdomen? Is she moving her bowels? I ask because when Jeepers was very ill, she was originally diagnosed with constipation because the vet (not exotic specialist, but a friend who mostly does dogs and cats) felt a knot and thought it was an impaction. Jeepers eventually passed and the necropsy indicated liver damage. Now I think perhaps what the vet thought was an impaction was actually an enlarged liver. I'm not sure that's the case, but it's just something I've wondered about.


Now that is quite interesting. When Tilly's cagemate died, I made a trip out to their house and palpated the dead glider's abdomen. I said that she may have had a fecal impaction because I felt a mass in her upper abdomen... could that have been an enlarged liver?

Also the vet diagnosed Tilly as constipated by palpation as well. So I wonder if the liver is having some issues.

What are the signs of liver trouble with suggies? Anyone know? Do they get jaundiced like a human would?
_________________________
I am a homeschool mom to four girls and seven sugar gliders; an annoying ponderer of deep thoughts; a purposeful meanderer on walks and strolls; a prayerful wonderer and marveler; a friend to many small creatures, and an Undercover Agent for the Kingdom which cannot be shaken...Nice to meet you!

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#380073 - 09/10/07 01:22 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: the gliders angel]
WholeheartMom Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 250
Loc: Reading to my girls in Florida
Originally Posted By: the gliders angel
and ask for a miracle as you lay your hands on her. you will see her slowly regain her strength.


Thank you so much! I am a praying person and I believe in miracles. There has to be one out there with Tilly's name on it.
_________________________
I am a homeschool mom to four girls and seven sugar gliders; an annoying ponderer of deep thoughts; a purposeful meanderer on walks and strolls; a prayerful wonderer and marveler; a friend to many small creatures, and an Undercover Agent for the Kingdom which cannot be shaken...Nice to meet you!

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#380078 - 09/10/07 01:40 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: Xfilefan]
WholeheartMom Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 250
Loc: Reading to my girls in Florida
Originally Posted By: Xfilefan


Please keep us updated...and if I were closer I'd whack your vet with something so she'd grow some common sense.



Jen, thank you for your post. I agree with everything you have written, especially the part about whacking the vet!

Anyway, currently Tilly is holding her own. She is not getting worse, but is not making a quick recovery either. She is still at 50 grams and is not gaining weight. I have them feeding her 1.5 tsp PML with 1 tbsp fruit and 1 tbsp veggies at night. I told them to only give mealworms in the morning so as to not spoil the nighttime appetite.

I'm concerned that we are not seeing improvement. I am thinking that perhaps we should have a follow up visit to the vet at which time I will:

1. Suggest a UA- Tilly was too dehydrated to give a sample before, but perhaps she could do it now.

2. Suggest neoglucagon or calcium glubionate.

3. Possible x-ray: I don't know if they need to anesthesize for this, and I don't think Tilly will be strong enough to pull through anesthesia, so I am hesitant to suggest this.

Anything else I should add?

Also, any ideas as to how to pack some grams on this little one? I have heard about Phoenix worms and wax worms so I am going to suggest that, but anything else?

Oh, one more thing.... I handled Tilly a little and was careful to wash my hands and change my clothes before handling my own suggies. I just had three joeys come OOP and I have handled the moms and joeys (had to know what sex they were, heehee). Do you think I should be concerned about transmitting something to my colony?
_________________________
I am a homeschool mom to four girls and seven sugar gliders; an annoying ponderer of deep thoughts; a purposeful meanderer on walks and strolls; a prayerful wonderer and marveler; a friend to many small creatures, and an Undercover Agent for the Kingdom which cannot be shaken...Nice to meet you!

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#380079 - 09/10/07 01:40 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: WholeheartMom]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
i dont think it is liver trouble yes they turn yellow. God can work a miracle on tilly. Just ask for her healing along with proper care i think the treatment of a good diet flagyl and baytril will take care of either a parasitic or bacterial issue. after you finish the meds have a vet run a fecal cytology and culture. you can also do a urine culture and sensitivity but after the meds wait 3 to 4 days till the meds get out of her system otherwise it wont show anything.

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#380094 - 09/10/07 02:17 AM Re: Sudden Hind leg paralysis [Re: WholeheartMom]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Just oopsed and lost my post, so I'll try again.

Quote:
3. Possible x-ray: I don't know if they need to anesthesize for this, and I don't think Tilly will be strong enough to pull through anesthesia, so I am hesitant to suggest this.


Then she probably isn't. It is a useful tool, but not at the expense of her life. Normally they anesthetize. SOMEtimes one can be gotten with the glider being still in a pouch-IF she'll stay still, but it isn't worth risking her life over. Or they could try holding her still on the table for it.

Quote:
1. Suggest a UA- Tilly was too dehydrated to give a sample before, but perhaps she could do it now.


UAs can be done either by the glider peeing on a clean surface, and pulling into a syringe, or by taking via syringe directly from the bladder (more invasive, but a completely uncontaminated and pure sample-I've had it done a couple times).

Quote:
Also, any ideas as to how to pack some grams on this little one? I have heard about Phoenix worms and wax worms so I am going to suggest that, but anything else?


Again, if dealing with calcium deficiency the worms are not a good idea in large quantities. I used Ensure with my HLP gliders (calorie dense), with a full teaspoon of Jurassical added to each bottle for at least a month. If she's dehydrated, use caution (don't use it if it's severe dehydration), and add water or pedialyte to it. IF she's too dehydrated it can turn claylike in the gut, and choke her or cause a blockage if her body pulls the water faster than her gut can process it. It's great for weight gain, though, and also has nutrition for her body and recovery.

As to liver issues, yes they will jaundice when disease is advanced...and usually by that time there is little that can be done. However, a UA can show early markers when the liver is having issues-another benefit to having one. Blood is the normal follow up when liver problems are thought to be an issue from UA, BUT you want the glider to be at LEAST 100 grams for that-they can only safely take ONE PERCENT of a gliders body weight for testing...not a lot, and out of the question to even get enough at her weight. UA is what would have to be gone by.

With Chronos, when his liver was failing, the swelling in the abdomen was not his liver, it was the blocked and enlarged attached gall bladder that was the size of a 10 lb cat's. He was also jaundiced. I can post a link to pics of him, his story (when he was yellow) and his surgery, if you want. So there are other things in there. As for constipated...an Xray could help show that as well IF you can get one. One question on that...is she still pooping? If so, she may be slowed down, poss. could be on the way to a blockage if things don't loosen, but isn't yet (and for the record-enemas do not work on gliders-every one I've seen it tried on has died). Veggie oil (NEVER mineral oil) could help loosen things in there.

Quote:
2. Suggest neoglucagon or calcium glubionate. I have heard about Phoenix worms and wax worms so I am going to suggest that, but anything else?


The oral calcium is good-I wouldn't use very many worms unless you have it, then still don't overload her-they're mostly fat with little nutrition. They can also be constipating in large amounts (From the proteins). Don't give more than you would mealies in a normal diet, just substitute the bigger one.

Quote:
Oh, one more thing.... I handled Tilly a little and was careful to wash my hands and change my clothes before handling my own suggies. I just had three joeys come OOP and I have handled the moms and joeys (had to know what sex they were, heehee). Do you think I should be concerned about transmitting something to my colony?


Even if you're dealing with a bacterial infection, precautions like thorough washing and changing should prevent cross contamination to your others if you're careful.

Hopefully this will help some. Keep us updated.


Edited by Xfilefan (09/10/07 02:19 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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