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#37848 - 02/24/05 01:25 AM Acacia Gum nutritional values
Anonymous
Unregistered


I thought that this may be something of interest to people out there.
I have been communicating with a supplier of acacia Gum who produces organic food grade acacia gum.
Finally someone has given me some good statistics as to the nutritional value of gum, particularly the calcium content!

So here it is...
per 100grams of Gum Powder
348Kcal calories
17mg Sodium
759mg Potassium
670mg Calcium
85g Total Carbohydrate
85g Soluble Fiber
2g Protein

After speaking with a few other people, I'm guessing and that the reason that phosphorous was not included was becuse the amount is trivial and not significant enought to mention. I've asked te supplier, but haven't gottne a response yet.
But, for those of you who have been researching acacia gum, I'm sure those statistics will interest you. The calcium figure especially! 670 mg is a pretty good amount! It makes sense how gliders maintain a good balanced calcium ratio in nature. It's the gum!

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#37849 - 02/24/05 03:18 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you for posting this information! My baby has not tried acacia gum yet but we are very curious and hopefully soon I will find out where I can get some. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#37850 - 02/24/05 04:09 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Exotic Nutrition's website has some. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#37851 - 02/24/05 04:43 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> Big Ern!

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#37852 - 02/24/05 04:48 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Interesting!! We have been given some arabic gum, but we are getting some acacia gum hopefully next week. Although, on the negative side - i have been informed that if you offer this with veg, fruit or insects simultaneously the gum won't be touched!! Be interesting to put that to the test.

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#37853 - 02/24/05 11:00 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ozzi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


All gliders appetites are different, some may touch it if offered in conjunction with other foods, some may not. It depends on your wee-one.

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#37854 - 02/24/05 03:56 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Most gliders don't really like the gum all by itself.
They're a bit spoiled by the nice sweet fruits we give them.
I mix mine with some passion fruit juice and pollen and stuff it into the drilled out holes of some branches I made for my gliders. If you're gonna do this, I'd suggest boiling the branches intermittently to keep them clean. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#37855 - 02/24/05 06:41 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've been reading up on glider diets in the wild, and what Ern feeds his gliders is right on target. I recommend that everyone look into the merits of bee pollen and other natural parts of the wild glider's diet, especially with all the fuss about trying to feed the right thing!

I'm definitely gonna invest in some of this.

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#37856 - 02/25/05 12:26 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Big Ern, how do you boil the branches? In a super huge pot at your resaurant?? I have had branches before but they get old and yucky and i dont know how to clean them. I would love to be able to do something like you do for my gliders.

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#37857 - 02/25/05 03:48 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"]Sorry, but there are some comments here that are not supported by proven fact and therefore are totally speculative. And a quick check with the calculator raises a question about how significant the calcium in the gum really is. Mind you I'm not trying to argue against feeding your gliders the gum, I'm simply pointing out that the above presentation doesn't any substantial information to justify it. [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....I'm [:"red"] GUESSING [/] that the reason that phosphorous was not included was becuse the amount is trivial and not significant enough to mention......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] We don't know why phosphorous was not on the label and we don't know that the amount is trivial. Look at any food product that you buy in the store and very few, if any of them list the phosphorous content. I don't know why that is. Wheat germ is terribly negative with respect to it's Ca:P ratio....it has a lot of phosphorous; but phosphorous is not listed on the label. Same is true for many of the baby foods we feed our gliders. Don't know about everyone else; but I would prefer not to [/] [:"red"] "GUESS" [/] [:"blue"] about an issue that is so critical to glider health. On the other hand, Ernie has stated that the Ca:P ratio of his mix is around 3.5:1. Depending upon the actual amount of calcium available, there may be enough calcium to offset a negative ratio in the gum if it turns out to have one. [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....670 mg is a pretty good amount.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Maybe, maybe not..... According to my calculator and what was posted in the other diet thread, a glider gets only about 5 mg of calcium per day from what is provided by the gum component of the diet and this assumes that the gum has no phosphorous to offset the calcium.....an assumption that we don't now to be true. And to put that in perspective, a glider on the BML diet gets about 100 mg of calcium per day. Bottom line....under the best of circumstances, the calcium in the gum is not very significant. (To be fair, I have done some calculations that suggest there is more calcium in the BML diet than is necessary to provide a 2:1 Ca:P for the total BML diet...but that is another story.)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....It makes sense how gliders maintain a good balanced calcium ratio in nature. It's the gum!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] [/] The above is totally speculative and unsupported by any facts. First and foremost, is the problem that if the gum has a negative Ca:P ratio it cannot contribute to balancing a wild glider's diet. Secondly, even if it turns out that the gum has a good Ca:P ratio, the powdered stuff that you buy in a bottle and feed to your gliders is not close to being the same stuff that a glider consumes in the wild. An analogy: sort of like comparing the garlic powder that one might use for cooking with a fresh clove of garlic. In a sense, you can think of powdered gum as a concentrate of the stuff your little furbutt might in the wild. We don't know what the Ca:p ratio is of the food that a glider eats in the wild and we certainly don't know exactly how much calcium a glider actually needs to consume or how much gum a glider consumes on a daily basis. We also don't know how much of the natural gum a glider would have to eat to balance his diet because we know just about zip about their natural diet.

I don't know if feeding A.gum is a good thing or a bad thing?? What I do know is there is certainly not enough information presently available to prove it one way or another. [/]

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#37858 - 02/25/05 06:22 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Personally, I don't see how feeding gliders something that constitutes a huge part of their natural diet could be bad. I don't have my figures on me right now, but I do have some books that document the percentage of a glider's total diet that Acacia and Eucalypt gums make up, and the books mention the amount of gum gathered from one tree and make comments about how many different sources one glider would need for a night of eating. I'll get back to this when I get home in a few hours.

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#37859 - 02/25/05 06:59 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
I don't think Randy is saying that acacia gum aka gum arabic is bad. I think he is saying that there is not enough evidence in to replace a proven diet with it.

Big Earn, if you are getting your information from the back of the acacia container, phosphoris is probably not listed because it is not concidered important. In other words you won't see P listed on the back of a bag of corn either. If you will email the company you got it from the should have a complete breakdown.
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#37860 - 02/25/05 11:23 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


AngelaFx, when I want to clean a branch for my gliders...I scrub it first with dawn dish soap. Then I pour boiling water over the branch at leact 3 times. I mean, I boil a pan of water 3 times and pour it on. Then I let the branch air dry and inspect it for anything that looks like it should be scrubbed off. I have even baked smaller branches on low in the oven to kill anything leftover.
Diane, 3 gliders and 2 more in pouch!!

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#37861 - 02/25/05 01:51 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK so my other post was removed, anyways...
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
According to my calculator and what was posted in the other diet thread, a glider gets only about 5 mg of calcium per day from what is provided by the gum component of the diet and this assumes that the gum has no phosphorous to offset the calcium.....an assumption that we don't now to be true. And to put that in perspective, a glider on the BML diet gets about 100 mg of calcium per day. Bottom line....under the best of circumstances, the calcium in the gum is not very significant. (To be fair, I have done some calculations that suggest there is more calcium in the BML diet than is necessary to provide a 2:1 Ca:P for the total BML diet...but that is another story.)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> By my calculations my gliders from my diet get 84mg of calcium per tablespoon of food....

Also, wild gliders most likely consume MUCH more gum in the wild than my diet provides. It's not intended to offset the ratio significantly by any means in reference to my diet. But, a fact worth exploring is that it MAY in the diet of a wild glider. What else could? What else do they consume that has a significant amount of calcium. Logical deduction would lead one to conclude that there must be something in the wild diet that is a significant source of calcium that must have a very highly positive calcium ratio. Otherwise gliders wouldn't exist in the wild, they'd all have died of HLP!
What could that something be?
My personal hypothesis is that it is Acacia Gum

It is not at all my intention to suggest that Acacia Gum be used to create a positive calcium ratio in the diet of a captive glider. Honestly I was just posting the stats to be helpful for those that might be interested. I know the stats were hard to come by for me!

Also, quite honestly, I feel that some of the attitudes expressed by certain people on this thread are less than positive, and I find them a bit offensive...
Why, if the truth is so important, don't people help me find it, if what I have presented is not enough? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

I'd appreciate it if people dedicated a little more effort to helping me find the answers rather than telling me the ones that I have are incorrect.
That would be the positive thing to do, wouldn't it?
I don't mind being wrong at all if people are willing to positively assist me in finding the correct answers.
It'd be much more helpful than pointing out the wrongs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />


Edited by big ern! (02/25/05 02:18 PM)

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#37863 - 02/25/05 02:24 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


*deleted, because I got my threads mixed up*


Edited by playingdecoy (02/25/05 02:37 PM)

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#37864 - 02/25/05 03:22 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


And I feel that there surely is a more positive way to go about it!
We emphasize time and time again the need for positive methods of communication on the board, although his post was factual, I personally did not find it positive, maybe it's just me...
What he was addressing in part was something that I had no intention of asserting.

I just find it a bit frustrating when I feel like I'm walking on eggshells with everything I say, and that I have to be so careful about what I say, because it's gonna get shoved back down my throat if anything isn't EXACTLY correct. That doesn't make me feel like the environment is friendly or conducive to progress in the least. Is that understandable? I want for mine what everybody wants for theirs, health and happiness.

I don't really feel like the issue of feeding acacia gum should be that sensitive of an issue? Mother nature has fed it to gliders for millenia.

I didn't create my diet with the idea of being a revolutionary of any sort. In fact if one was to look at it closely, it actually uses ideas from diets that have already been used! There is really nothing that new about my diet. I don't mind if it's picked apart at all. If it is done with good intentions in a positive manner, then I welcome it! In my post on the thread about the diet, I emphasize that I welcome criticisms. Address them to me with the attitude that one wants to help positively affect it without trying to make me look like an idiot and I'll be more than receptive, I'll be thankful <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

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#37865 - 02/25/05 03:24 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just asking because I don't know, wouldn't dawn soap kind of soak into the branch. No matter how many times you rinse something porous, wouldn't it still seep in a little?

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#37866 - 02/25/05 03:45 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#37867 - 02/25/05 06:01 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Personally, I don't see how feeding gliders something that constitutes a huge part of their natural diet could be bad.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Becca:

Far as I know, no one has said it was bad to feed gum??? The question seems to revolves around whether it is "NECESSARY" and how much benefit, if any, is derived.

I would love to see any information you might have on gliders consumption habits in the wild!! [/]

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#37868 - 02/25/05 06:11 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....I don't think Randy is saying that acacia gum aka gum arabic is bad. I think he is saying that there is not enough evidence in to replace a proven diet with it......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Please correct me if I am wrong; but I don't think acacia gum and gum arabic are exactly the same thin. Seems to me I remember someone posting that gum arabic comes from a different species of tree in Africa.

Anita is correct in her interpretation of my message. Did not and am not saying it is bad.....just that we don't have enough information to know whether it is necessary and whether the powdered stuff that we get provides the same benefits to captive gliders as the natural stuff does to wild gliders. [/]

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#37869 - 02/25/05 10:12 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The powdered stuff is simply gum with the water removed, and gum arabic (never heard of it 'til today) is apparently similar enough to acacia gum that it can be substituted. Why, though, when you can order dehydrated acacia gum powder using the handy-dandy 'Net? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#37870 - 02/25/05 10:52 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
A gummy exudation from Acacia Senegal, Willdenow" (U. S. P.). The concrete juices of other species are also included under the commercial name Gum Acacia.
Nat. Ord.—Leguminosae.
SYNONYMS: Gum arabic, Gum acacia, Gum mimosa, Gummi mimosae, Gummi arabicum.
ILLUSTRATION: Acacia Senegal, Bentley and Trimen, Med. Plants, 94; A. vera, Willdenow, Spec. Plant, iv., 1805.
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#37871 - 02/26/05 12:05 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
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#37872 - 02/26/05 02:11 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Please correct me if I am wrong; but I don't think acacia gum and gum arabic are exactly the same thin. Seems to me I remember someone posting that gum arabic comes from a different species of tree in Africa.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[:"blue"] Gum Arabic is synonynm for Acacia Gum. Most commercially available Gum Arabic is from Acacia Senegal. The Gum Arabic that is used in foods is obtained from Acacia Senegal. There are variances in the amounts of tannins in Acacia Gums derived from different types of Acacias. Most if not all species besides Acacia Senegal are NOT used to produce the food grade gum.

http://www.ticgums.com/
This is one supplier that supplies Gum Arabic/Acacia Gum in many forms and grades, most notably organic additive free gum.
They have some info on their pages

Also here are another couple links of interest if you are concerned about the safety of A.Senegal gum versus other Acacia Gums <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...itool=iconabstr
According to Exotic Nutrition, the gum powder that they sell is from Acacia Mearnsii which is the primary source of gum for gliders in the wild living in Australia.

I don't understand why Randy hasn't addressed the info and questions that I posted?
What could possibly balance a gliders diet in the wild other than Acacia Gum? What else do they consume in the wild that is a significant enough source of calcium that would allow them to survive despite their frequent consumption of items that have largely negative calcium ratios? Why has it been cited that Acacia Gum is to be credited with balancing out the calcium levels in animals such as the gumnivorous Marmoset, and why could the same not apply to gliders? If the calcium ratio of Acacia Gum were in fact negative, why then do gliders still exist in a state in which they depend on some sort of source of calcium to survive? How do they even exist at all? A quick search on the subject would not take any longer than punching in some numbers on your calculator! I think that you might find some interesting info....[/]


Edited by big ern! (02/26/05 02:41 AM)

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#37873 - 02/26/05 07:14 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
According to Exotic Nutrition, the gum powder that they sell is from Acacia Mearnsii which is the primary source of gum for gliders in the wild living in Australia.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That is interesting. I did not know that there was any Mearnsii avalable. I thought the only acacia gum in powder form available was from the senegal. The senegal is the kind that you get at the health food store.And that makes a huge difference since the senegal is not native to the areas that the Sugar Glider is native to.

Also, gliders get calcium from the bones of small rodents and birds. It is my understanding that they don't live long enough in the wild to develope hlp. I am glad we are discussing this. I know a lot of other people are too.
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#37874 - 02/26/05 08:52 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
I don't know if gliders eat eucalyptus or acacia leaves in the wild (mine went crazy for eucalyptus when I gave it to them), but their calcium likely is in the leaves or the sap/gum (or both). Much of the soil in the western half of Australia is very very high in calcium carbonate. In some areas, it is the primary soil mineral. The trees get the CaCO3 from the soil along with other minerals that are dissolved in the groundwater. As a result, wild eucalyptus trees in Australia have a lot of calcium in them - there is no way it wouldn't be in the leaves and sap of any tree that rooted in calcium carbonate soils. So any sap-suckers or leaf-eaters evolving in that environment would get a lot of calcium in their diet. I would be willing to bet that animals from that area that don't need a lot of calcium (or for which calcium can be toxic) have systems to get rid of the excess calcium. I'd also be willing to bet that most animals from that area that store calcium (= anything with bones), have reduced abilities to maintain calcium in their bodies, because so much comes in from the environment that they don't need to invest energy in keeping those systems operational. Also, natural selection wouldn't take out anything that couldn't maintain calcium, so those genes would become common in a higher percentage of the population.

Sugar gliders have reduced abilities to maintain calcium in their bodies, and get HLP when calcium levels in their diet cannot compensate for their inability to maintain it in their bodies. I know it is the case with many exotic reptiles from Australia as well, and I'd bet that other possums in the eucalyptus forests have this problem, too.

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#37875 - 02/26/05 09:14 AM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nope, gliders don't eat the leaves. That's one thing that seperates them from their relatives <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#37876 - 02/26/05 01:14 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
And that makes a huge difference since the senegal is not native to the areas that the Sugar Glider is native to.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Anita, the only difference that I've been able to find to suggest any difference between A.Senegal and A.Mearnsii is the amount of tannins present in the gum. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Other than that, they are, from what I've found, identical. I'd really appreciate it if anyone could find any info to the contrary, because I've been searching high and low!

There is a link that I posted previously to a short article in which they did a study in which both gums were fed in a controlled experiment to determine the different results that would arise between feeding the two gums. It seems that there really is no significant differentce, and there is, from what I can find, no reason that A.Senegal is not a suitable replacement for the almost identical, but much more expensive A.Mearnsii gum.

It would be a good thing if we could establish that Gum Arabic from A.Senegal is without a doubt safe for gliders. It is much cheaper, and I personally don't like the fact that only one business carries A.Mearnsii gum. I'd like to have options <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Also, in a previous thread, Mikey Bustos posted a bit of info on how tannins (which A.Mearnsii contains more of than A.Senegal) aren't necessarily a positive attribute.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Also, gliders get calcium from the bones of small rodents and birds. It is my understanding that they don't live long enough in the wild to develope hlp.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Anita, this may be a good source of calcium, but I'm not sure that the comsumption of vertebrates would be a profound enough source of calcium that it could entirely account for balancing a wild glider's diet?(note: I don't think that what's you're asserting) From what I've heard, can't HLP come on fairly quick? Like within a year or two of having a negative calcium ratio? I'm sure Charlie H might have some input on HLP and how long it takes.

The calcium in the bones would probably only balance out the meat that was eaten at the same time, I could be wrong, I've never really looked at the general calcium ratio of an animal carcass, lol. It is something that is worth considering, but in the reading that I've done, I haven't really seen the consumption of vertebrates to take up too much of their feeding time?

Sarah W, you raised some interesting points. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

I honestly feel like there is adequate enough information to support that Acacia Gum does indeed have a positive calcium ratio.

I'm not sure how it could have a negative ratio, especially after the info that Sarah W presented in reference to the soil composition.

I know we are curious to hear what Randy has to say on the issue?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I am glad we are discussing this. I know a lot of other people are too.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I am too! I am also glad to see a positive exchange of information taking place! Thanks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

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#37877 - 02/26/05 03:36 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here is one good link I found through a search for calcium content of Australian Soil that supports Sarah W's information.
http://www.bettersoils.com.au/module5/5_4.htm
One thing I also noted was that it mentioned that Australian soils were generally deficient in Phosphorous.

Another webpage I visited mentioned how high phosphorous levels actually yellowed the leaves of native plants such as Eucalyptus trees and rendered them unable to uptake the iron that they needed to thrive.

In addition to support provided by other info.....
It would only seem logical that it would follow that the gum of a plant that is detrimentally affected by a phosphorous presence in the soil, and which also grow in calcareous soil, would be very unlikely to contain a notable amount of phosphorous and thus the calcium ratio could undoubtably be assumed to be positive.

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#37878 - 02/26/05 03:40 PM Re: Acacia Gum nutritional values [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know many people don't think glider university is credible, but they have cited another reference on this web page nearing the bottom about gums having a high ca:p ratio. They found acacia to be beneficial to marmosets to provide more calcium, which also rings true for gliders.

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