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#387602 - 09/26/07 03:01 PM Do you want to help to raise the min. standards???
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8322
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
I was talking to my USDA inspector about how the minimum standards for Sugar Gliders is not adequate. He fully agreed with me. He said the problem is, that Sugar Gliders fall under Category F, which includes all animals not included in Categories A-E. So it ranges from like a Sugar Glider to an Elephant, lol.

He said that what we need to do is set our own minimum standards for housing, diet, enrichment, etc. We need to write it up and have all the information of the people who support it, names, addressed, phone numbers. Then we need to sent it to the headquarters in Riverdale. He acted like once we do this and the USDA is aware that the minimum standards are not adequate that they may change it.

I just kept talking to him about the mills and people that get by with 1x1 cages and pellets as a diet, he agreed that it was a sad sad story. He said that it's people like me that make his job worth while *grin*.

So who wants to volunteer to take on this challenge?? I would but I am just not that good at that type of stuff.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#387637 - 09/26/07 03:58 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: Lynsie]
cinnamonstix Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 3420
Loc: Twin Cities, MN
Lyns...this is a great idea! First off, sadly not everyone has made it back to the site yet since it is not "fully" up and not everyone knows where to find the link to find us. Another thing...plan to repost this post once things do go back to normal...since this is just a temp fix...posts here will be lost once we go back over to the normal side...just to make sure you know and the post is not just lost.

But this is an AWESOME idea...maybe it will help cause problems for the mills, because I am sure they can not pass all the "REAL" standards!
_________________________
~GWEN~
Crazy BF Dru
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www.cinnamonstix-n-sugar.com

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#388335 - 09/27/07 11:09 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: cinnamonstix]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8322
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
bump
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Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#388388 - 09/27/07 11:43 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: Lynsie]
cinnamonstix Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 3420
Loc: Twin Cities, MN
YAY FOR EDDIE!!! He carried the messages over!!!
_________________________
~GWEN~
Crazy BF Dru
Tortoise: Vork
Cats: Scooby, Swiper, Zero, Dinah & Sykes
Suggies: Meeko, Willow & Nemo; Icarus & Ivy; Howie & Gracie; Rei & Syfka; Rafiki & Rajah, Opal, Lily & Link, Tael, Tatl & Navi

www.cinnamonstix-n-sugar.com

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#389798 - 09/30/07 06:42 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: cinnamonstix]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Cyndiekb started a similar thread, it's here:
http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=75918#Post75918

I completely agree, and it's good to continue to bring attention to it until we figure out how we want to proceed (or who wants to run with it!
_________________________
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Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#389803 - 09/30/07 06:54 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: sugarlope]
carolkosiorek Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 266
Loc: NE Ohio
I FULLY AGREE that standards must be raised for PROPER OWNERSHIP of these precious animals.
_________________________
I love all of GOD's creatures, even those that are not so nice.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

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#658795 - 10/18/08 11:47 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: carolkosiorek]
JJS
Unregistered


I agree completely 100% with you on this. Where i live the minimum required space for a pair is 5 square metres (16.4 feet) of floor area and 3 metres (9.8 feet) high. Anyone familiar with glider movement and behavior in the wild would consider this an absolute minimum.

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#658801 - 10/18/08 11:59 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
konotashi Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 4061
Loc: Mesa, AZ
I couldn't agree more. It'd be like if you were crammed in a small room (or jail cell, better yet) with a few other people and never got to leave. cry
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#658811 - 10/19/08 12:13 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: konotashi]
JJS
Unregistered


Or were cramped in a jail cell and allowed out for only a few hours a day. But between 12 and 6am (when your most awake and want to play and forage) your in your jail cell.
Anything smaller than 3 metres high, 3 metres wide and 3 metres deep for a pair is considered cruelty to animals over here. I agree, I've seen some kept in cages as small as 4*4*4 foot (they were allowed out for a couple hours a night) and sure the gliders were alive, but compared to other captive gliders in larger enclosures they were so much more lazy and boring. They didn't act like a sugar glider should. Anyone who has seen these amazing creatures in the wild would agree.

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#658813 - 10/19/08 12:17 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
What can I do to help??? EXCELLENT idea, Lynsie!
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812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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#658829 - 10/19/08 06:46 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: suggiemom1980]
mommabear82
Unregistered


Great idea Lynsie!!

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#659272 - 10/20/08 12:38 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
PocketPrincess Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 628
Loc: Austin, Tx
Has anyone written this up yet? I would really like to help and if it needs to be written still, if anyone can give me ideas, I would be more than happy to put it in writing.
_________________________
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#659291 - 10/20/08 01:08 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: PocketPrincess]
PocketPrincess Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 628
Loc: Austin, Tx
I think the ideal would be to get the USDA minimum cage size requirements to the minimum standard given by suggie owners (18 or 24x24x36). That would reduce the number of gliders that the mills are able to possess and it would be good to have at least these on the required list if possible:

Wheel
Pouch or nesting box

Could USDA also require a proper diet? Or would they not be able to enforce that with mills?
_________________________
Mommy to:
One Skin Kid: Emily Kathryn born 07-23-07
A German Shepherd and Pink Poodle: Wrangler and Flirt
1 Rat: Lizzy Borden
16 Suggies: Bella, Edward, Jasper, Emmett, Rosalie, Alice, and Renesme, Liberty, Justice, America, and Glenn, Hope, Tony, Abby, Ziva, and Jethro


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#660355 - 10/22/08 12:12 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: PocketPrincess]
ShyRascal
Unregistered


I woudn't mind being in on this if possible. Let me know what I can do, it would help take my mind off things and be productive at the same time. (Did that make any sense? Lord I'm too tired, lol)

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#660399 - 10/22/08 05:47 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
CyndieKB and I are working on an organization that will be working on getting laws changed. Somehow I missed this post when it went around the first time. Anyway, we haave all of our paperwork filed so now I just need to get of my back side and get the website together. We know that this won't stop mill breeders but if we can get it done, we can make conditions better for gliders. We WILL be contacting ALL the organizations from local levels to Federal levels. We will do what ever it takes to get the message out and to get laws changed. Letter writing campaigns, phone calls, printed brochures, petition iniatives in the states that allow them, maybe even legal protests if we feel it is nescassary. Whatever the law allows us to do. I will try to get this site up by Sunday. This first came about as an effort to support SESG and we hope to be there for anything that they need.


Edited by hushpuppy (10/22/08 05:53 AM)
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#660755 - 10/22/08 07:55 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: hushpuppy]
JJS
Unregistered


18 or 24x24x36 is waaaaay too small to be the minimum! How are they meant to do really anything in their? It should be far bigger, aren't we trying to prevent cruelty?

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#660789 - 10/22/08 08:51 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
From what I understand, right now the minimum is 12x12x12. Gotta start small, or it would just be ignored. Baby steps.
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#660843 - 10/22/08 10:17 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: Mel2mdl]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
As far as I know there are no minimums. As long as the animals can stand, lay, turn around without touching the cage or each other, that is all that is required. If anyone has found info other than that, please let us know.
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#660887 - 10/22/08 11:47 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: hushpuppy]
JJS
Unregistered


hushpuppy- well then minimum's should be made because that is disgusting.

Anything smaller than 3*3*3 metres is considered cruel where i live and you'll have a knock at your door.
At the very least make it 6*6*3 foot, so they can have a sort of normal life. People should start refusing to sell to people unless they can provide the minimum requirements for the well being of the animals which should be as above. If the person can't provide appropriate conditions for the animal then they aren't fit to be sugar glider owners. They should keep something else that is more suited to smaller cages. People need to stop thinking of themselves and think of the animals. How hard is it to provide a decent sized cage?

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#661000 - 10/23/08 08:38 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Originally Posted By: JJS
At the very least make it 6*6*3 foot, so they can have a sort of normal life. People should start refusing to sell to people unless they can provide the minimum requirements for the well being of the animals which should be as above. If the person can't provide appropriate conditions for the animal then they aren't fit to be sugar glider owners. They should keep something else that is more suited to smaller cages. People need to stop thinking of themselves and think of the animals. How hard is it to provide a decent sized cage?
While a 6x6x3 cage would be amazing, many owners don't have the room to be able to provide that much space, particular if they have more than 1 cage of gliders. My gliders are all in 175 reptariums (2.5x2.5 and 4 ft tall). They all get several hours a week in tent time (minimum of 3 hours/wk/cage), as well as having free roam of the glider room a couple hours a week while I'm in there with them.
_________________________
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Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#661005 - 10/23/08 08:58 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: BeckiT]
SugarHigh
Unregistered


This is completely OT but Lynsie, what is the color called of your glider in your avatar? He/she is so gorgeous! Stunning!

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#661134 - 10/23/08 01:51 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
JJS
Unregistered


6*6*3 foot is nowhere near over the top. That should be the absolute bare minimum for a healthy glider. So what they get let out for a few hours every week, does that mean between 12-6am (when most alert) they are in those tiny enclosures?
That's what i meant by think of the animals. If you can only provide a 6*6*3 enclosure then only keep a pair of gliders, don't be selfish and keep more in tiny cages for your own benefit but at the expense of the animals.
Seriously, if you can't set aside at least 6*6*3 foot, you shouldn't be keeping them. It's not even that big, if people can't even provide a space as small as that they shouldn't have them. If you want to keep more, then you'll need more space. That's exactly what i mean by think of the animals. I would love to own a million animals but ya have to think of the well being of each of those animals. If anyone is familiar with sugar glider movement, biology and lifestyle, they would not be confining them to cages so small. That's why 3*3*3 metres (9.84*9.84*9.84 feet) is the minimum where i live, if you've seen how active and how much they run and jump around in the tree tops covering heaps of area, you would not be confining them to cages any smaller than that.
3*3*3 metres is the absolute minimum by anyone who knows anything about sugar gliders.
When i mention to my mates about the enclosure sizes overseas, i said someone had one 5*4*4 foot, they thought i was mistaken and said it must've been metres. I said I'm not kidding people keep them in these size enclosures, they were in shock and refused to believe that i wasn't mistaken for metres. No wonder there are all these health/behavioral problems overseas. We have none of that here. No one here would keep a glider in anything smaller than 3*3*3 metres.

So now I'm curious, Why do people keep sugar glider's? If they clearly don't care for the well being of the animals, why do people do it?
Is it just another commodity that people think they deserve to have power over and own, irrespective of the conditions they will be living in. Why do people feel it's right to keep an animal in terrible conditions when heaps of people in another country are having huge success (basically zero health problems) keeping them based on how bloody active they are (what they need)

suagrhigh- If 6*6*3 foot is over the top, i think you shouldn't be keeping sugar glider's. You must know nothing about them to confine them to a cage that small. It's people with this attitude that the breeders shouldn't sell to. Someone who is clearly not thinking of the animals, and only themselves. I hope you have a good vet.

I must say this is all doing my head in. When i joined up i thought you were a bunch of people who love sugar glider's. How i was very wrong...

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#662009 - 10/25/08 05:46 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
bdeese
Unregistered


I totally support requiring larger cages! Let me know when this project gets under way!


I understand the cages we use seem tiny compared to the requirements in Australia. I never knew what they were there. Ive never looked it up.Ive always been told are American standards. Im sorry you feel I abuse my sugar gliders because of this.
I had planned on getting even larger cages within the next 2 weeks for them.
So what would the requirments be for a colony of six?

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#662016 - 10/25/08 08:02 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
sugarmomma78
Unregistered


JJS I do not think anyone here is cruel or trying to be. I think however you are be very rude to people who love their gliders very much. That is great to share what the the standards in Australia. However I think your comments are now crossing a line and are insulting. If you see this as an issue do something to help instead of putting people down. Ok now back on topic, Lynsie what can I do to help?

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#662020 - 10/25/08 08:34 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
macwood6
Unregistered


Perhaps what he is suggesting is that if you cannot provide a 6 foot cage then you should not own gliders.
That would eliminate most people from being glider owners.

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#662046 - 10/25/08 10:36 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: JJS
18 or 24x24x36 is waaaaay too small to be the minimum! How are they meant to do really anything in their? It should be far bigger, aren't we trying to prevent cruelty?


JJS, over in Australia 3mx3mx3m is perfectly logical because gliders are native there and you can set up outdoor enclosures.

However, here in America some ROOMS aren't even that big and since we can't keep our gliders outdoors then it's simply not logical to have such a high standard for keeping the gliders.

We may have our gliders in "small" cages, but they are all very happy. Well, at least I know that *mine* are. tounge

I think even 6x6x3 is a bit much because most people simply cannot fit that size of a cage in their home. What would happen to all the breeders that couldn't keep that standard? Even those that only have a couple breeding pairs. Would they be denied a license even though they love their gliders dearly and spoil them beyond words, but simply couldn't fit such large cages into their home?

I DEFINATELY agree that the cage standards need to go up, but not so drastically. One step at a time...
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#662077 - 10/25/08 11:32 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: Guerita135]
SugareeErin Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 3843
Loc: Lisle, Illinois
I agree that the cage size standard needs to go up. It is sad that the USDA does not even really have a standard cage size. I will someday have 6' x 6' cages, however at this time I do not have room. The cages I have are the flight cages many people here have. I feel that these cages are inadequate, but for now they have to do until I am able to build bigger ones...

When I tell people about minimum cage size I always tell people the minimun in Aust. is 10' x 10', and the bigger the better. All of my babies so far have gone to wonderful homes, and most of them are living in awesome giant cages. Two of the people build 6' x 6' cages, and the other is slightly smaller but quite large. I think that telling people the minimum in Aust. helps them realize how big a cage they really need.

JJS I understand where you are coming from. I hope the standard goes up here. Everyone here loves their gliders though and we do care about them very much, so to say that we don't is pretty mean. But you are right, with the cage sizes we have our gliders are not able to glide. They can jump, but not glide. They can not move as they would in the wild, their movement is very restricted.
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#662081 - 10/25/08 11:50 AM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Would love to see a pic of your enclosure for your gliders JJS. Please do share some.

Also, what other types of pets do you own?

Always curious to learn about folks in Oz.
_________________________
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Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

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#662129 - 10/25/08 01:02 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: Srlb]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
My cages are perfectly acceptable and my gliders get anything but cruel treatment. I'm a bit offended that you would suggest that all of us with smaller (not small, just smaller than what you suggest) cages are neglecting our pets. I guess since you're from Australia, you know it all, but coming over here and telling us we shouldn't own gliders is out of line and just plain rude.

Is there any particular reason you think that your big cages make you that much of a better owner? Who sets this minimum cage size where you live? Who goes around and checks all cage sizes to make sure they are this size? What is the punishment for smaller cages?

I'd be interested to know the details and would LOVE to see pics of your setup since you obviously set the standard.
_________________________
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#662133 - 10/25/08 01:09 PM Re: Do you want to help to raise the min. standards??? [Re: StitchsMom]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
According to this post you don't even have a cage that size of your own. Why not? Isn't it super easy to get one that huge? http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...ures#Post658673
_________________________
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