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#3918 - 09/06/02 06:12 PM I screwed up bad....
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well I am certainly one to try to learn from mistakes and I have made quite a large one. Hopefully I can help prevent anyone else from dropping the ball like myself.
The story goes like this. From the time I got Mary and Sam I have tried to read and learn absolutely as much as I could to try to provide them with a nutritious and balanced diet and although I don't personally use BML every vet and knowledgeable person I have gone over my diet with seems to think I was doing fine myself included. I offered fresh fruits and veggies, mealworms, chicken, Nexton Lori mixed with calcium enriched baby cereal twice per week, dusting with calcium and all the other things you are suppossed to do with one exception. Apparantly my fear of over doing the calcium was a massive mistake.
Yesterday was the 1st time I saw any signs of any trouble and man did it come on quickly. Almost out of the blue Sam started having trouble with his back legs followed by seizures and vomiting while I was having lunch with them. Needless to say I hit the panic button and immediately went to the vet with the both of them. After an x-ray and fecal were done the problem was obvious. MBD due to insufficient calcium. I was not only stunned that I had not given them enough but of course now I am completely aware that the guilt lies all on my shoulders. Bottom line I dropped the ball and now they are suffering for it. I feel as if I have completely let them down and mistreated them regardless of it being unintentional as that doesn't really help them any. They were immediately given a calcium injection and I was given liquid calcium to give them daily till they come around and an antibody for Sam just to be safe as he was worse off than Mary and he can't afford to have to fight off any other problems right now. The x-ray revealed thin bone structure but fortunately no fractures and they are totally parasite free on the bright side.
I feel horrible about this as I truly felt I was giving them optimum care and now they have to suffer due strictly to my ignorance. I was worried that if given too much calcium they could be overdosed such as with too many vitamins but as I have now learned calcium taken orally if excessive will simply be passed and cause no harm.
Well now I know better and if they recover this will never be a problem again on my shift I just dearly hope that I haven't caused them any long term problems by messing up so bad in the 1st place. By the time I reached the vets office Sam was very lifeless and I wasn't sure if he was going to make it or not. This morning after sitting up all night watching them and feeling guilty I was relieved to see him climbing around using all four feet pretty much normally and grooming with his back feet although neither of them has any energy at this point. I have heard of complete recoveries and I hope with all my heart that I caught it in time. If anyone out there has any clue as to what my actual chances of reversing this problem are please let me know. I try to be a realist and even though the vet seems to feel pretty positive I could sure sleep a lot better if I at least had a clue as to what kind of chance I have. Sorry for the long post but I felt if it could prevent someone else form doing it it was well worth the space taken up. I keep hearing that it's not my fault but it is. They don't buy their food so regardless of intentional or not the blame does indeed lie sguarely on me. I truly hate this and will not ever totally forgive myself for it but the important thing now is to get them better. I just hope that I have corrected my mistake in time. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Regretfully
Phil

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#3919 - 09/06/02 06:36 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Phil:
Don't be so hard on yourself. There is alot to still be learned about gliders and there is no way to learn if not by trial and error. Unfortantly these things do happen. I am so sorry you have to go through this, now you can work on getting them better and then you can thank yourself for saving a life. Alot of people do not go directly to the vets they wait around and see if they cannot fix it themselves you did the best thing you could for your babies. There will be alot of prays comming your way. Good luck

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#3920 - 09/06/02 07:14 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


phil, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> i'm sorry to hear about your babies being sick. mine is sick and your post helped me learn that i can't overdose him. its a long road but i have learned from the same mistake. its all going to get better. just take it day by day <img border="0" alt="thumb" title="" src="graemlins/thumb.gif" /> . d and the gang <img border="0" alt="glider" title="" src="graemlins/littleglider.gif" />

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#3921 - 09/06/02 07:18 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you for sharing your story. I would not have guessed that could happen with the diet you were feeding. Best wishes to Mary and Sam. I hope I will see many more photos of them here at Glider Central. They are the cutest gliders (besides my own)!!!!!!

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#3922 - 09/06/02 08:14 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41153
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Phil,
Thank you so much for sharing your experience, and it will undoubtedly help another glider owner whether you will be made aware of it or not.

Fortunately, you recognized (in time) that there was something terribly wrong and took the appropriate steps. You would be surprised just how many people think a glider's illness is something that will pass with time. Sadly it is usually not the illness that passes.

I lost my very first glider to a senseless accident that was totally my fault by letting him have free reign of the bedroom at night. In fact, it was a rare occassion that Charlie was caged. The fact that our bond was so strong made it even more dangerous for him since he had no clue that this huge (to him) person could possibly be dangerous. But one night he managed to get underneath me.

So, now you can do what I do ... whenever I see a post about how cute and wonderful it is to let a glider run around during the night, I jump on the biggest soapbox I can find.

Your loss was not as tragic, but it gives you the information and the perfect opportunity to help someone else.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your gliders. Please, please keep us posted on how they are doing.
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#3923 - 09/06/02 09:10 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh Phil,
Dont beat up yourself, everyone makes mistakes. Im praying your babies get well soon, keep us updated.

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#3924 - 09/07/02 12:18 AM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Phil, this is not the time for lectures and as I posted tonight you never can be too careful, but I did want to share a story and something I learned not too long ago. I had a friend who posts on this board that had three gliders die recently because she was substituting canned chicken for the babyfood chicken. Well, too much of that canned chicken which contained phosphorus, ate up all the calcium in the BML resulting in seisures and death. Two of the gliders were 6 months old and had always been on the BML with the chicken substituted for Baby food. Well this is just an example of how delicate the diet is and how the formula of that diet and the chemisty of the glider is so fragile. You just can't mess with it. I remember one time I asked Bourbon about making my own babyfood chicken instead of the stinky stuff and she said it would mess up the ratios. Well that is because the real chicken is just that - a lot of chicken, where the babyfood chicken actually has very little chicken in it, so it doens't absorb all the calcium. Well the moral is, we all make mistakes and we are just humans, but the focus is on the future now and seeing that your gliders are well. Prayers are in order. <img border="0" alt="angel" title="" src="graemlins/frostyangel.gif" />
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

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USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#3925 - 09/07/02 03:18 AM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Phil,
I understand your feelings of guilt and sadness right now. I too did the same thing and learned from my experiences the importance of calcium. HLP is very serious and can come on very quickly and take your glider, but I am here to say that it can be reversed. I have seen it with one of my own gliders. Knowing this, I hope this eases your worry. But watch your gliders carefully during this recovery process and take them to the vet immediately if you see any unhealthy changes. You did the right thing by noticing it immediately and taking action right away. Thank you for sharing your story, as it will help other glider owners and that's what we are all here for. I wish your gliders a speedy recovery. Please keep us posted.

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#3926 - 09/07/02 08:37 AM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was worried that if given too much calcium they could be overdosed such as with too many vitamins but as I have now learned calcium taken orally if excessive will simply be passed and cause no harm.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Phil
Thank YOU sooooo much for posting your story. I too had been concerned that maybe I was giving too much calcium, and have been trying to find out what happens if they get too much calcium.

See I had started giving them freezed dried crickets and mealies with their bml, because they lasted longer and didn't get so smelly, but they have added calcium in them and I didn't know for sure if I was actually hurting them by giving them this extra calcium or not. I did not know that they would just pass this off..
You've given me some peace of mind.

Thank you again for sharing your story.
jojo

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#3927 - 09/07/02 11:06 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I hope that I did catch it in time and I truly hope that I can reverse it. Yes it does help somewhat to know that it can be reversed. On the chicken topic surprisingly the only chicken I have used is the baby food chicken so go figure.
So far no more seizures that I can see and they have both eaten a bit although not as much as I would like to see them eat but I can certainly understand why their appetite and energy levels are really low now. I am suppossed to have a follow up call with Dr Atlas Monday and bring them by again probably Thursday for another look at them so hopefully I'll know more about how they are going to come through this soon. At this point the hardest part is the feeling of being helpless as most of what I can do now is just watch and wait hoping for some more signs of improvement. They are both grooming and using their back legs much better and as hesitant as I am to get my hopes up prematurely they do seem to be coming around. I just don't want to get myself all pumped up thinking they're going to be fine only to have my heart broken again. Hopefully I'll be able to give a more complete update with a lot more positive news soon but for now it will have to be a few more sleepless nights spent waiting and wishing. I truly hope that they are allright as it is killing me to watch them go through this and I hope just as strongly that no one else has to go through this as well. I just wish I had more of a clue as to what their chances of recovery were but I guess only time can answer that. Thanks for the kind words and support all... it means a lot. And I appologize for seeming less than receptive to the it's not my fault way of thinking but I truly can't help it. It's just the way I am they are like my children and the blame is squarely on me I just hope that they live through this so that I can have another chance to make it up to them.
I'll update again when I know more.
Phil

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#3928 - 09/07/02 01:02 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Phil,
I just wanted to let you know my thoughts are with you. I pray you caught the MBD in time. It sounds like you were right on top of it, as soon as you saw symptoms, you went right to the vet. Please don't be so hard on yourself. Just learn from this and help others to learn from it too. Good luck Mary and Sam!! <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />

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#3929 - 09/07/02 06:24 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Phil,
This tugs at my heart. Please know you ARE NOT to blame! You were and are continuing to be a wonderful glider owner who knows his gliders well enough to know that something was not right and bringing them in to the vet PDQ to diagnose the problem. I applaud you for that! Gliders are so delicate and relatively new to us, so it is by trial and error that we learn more.

I am praying for you and Sam and Mary and hope they both make a full recovery. Thank you for sharing your story.

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#3930 - 09/07/02 08:10 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Phil - I hope you're being a little easier on yourself now. We are ALL still learning. I too have "calcium questions" all the time and I check my Bugsy EVERY morning and EVERY evening because I am so afraid of the dreaded HLP. It is scary and we, as humans, can only do what we can do and learn what we can learn as time goes along. Give yourself a break, as Robin said, for having the foresight to get him to the vet as quickly as you did! I feel sure your babies are going to do well and pull through just fine!!! Good vibes coming to Sam and to Mary!!!!! <img border="0" alt="clap" title="" src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="clap" title="" src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" />

<small>[ 09-07-2002, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: Charlee ]</small>

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#3931 - 09/08/02 10:50 AM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh Phil! I am so sorry to hear about your gliders!! It sounds like you have done the right thing and definitely caught it early!

I found this article "Hind Leg Paralysis" in Sugar Gliders by Chris, Tina and Gizmo that I have added to my website.. It was very helpful and maybe it will give you another resource to go to. http://www.sugargliders-r-us.com/health.htm

Please keep us posted... My prayers are with you and your babies!

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#3932 - 09/08/02 11:02 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
PepPony Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 2088
Phil--Thank you for being so brave and sharing your heartfelt story. Needless to say, by sharing this with people here in our forum, you undoubtedly will be helping many people. I believe they will read what you went through and are currently dealing with and at least think twice. I know diet discussions are probably the most volatile of any discussions in the forum and the reason for that is people are passionate about them. I think what you have done may take some of the stubbornness away and preconceived ideas glider owners have about diet. Then owners will go with a proven diet.

That post was extremely well written and honest. I believe that your gliders will make a full recovery and have my hands folded and my fingers crossed. Hopefully you caught this early enough. You did things right though. At the first sign of trouble you took them to a vet and did not wait for things to try and improve. Thanks for sharing.

<small>[ 09-08-2002, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: PepPony ]</small>

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#3933 - 09/14/02 01:39 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


phil

im praying for your babies to make it thru <img border="0" alt="angel" title="" src="graemlins/frostyangel.gif" /> my little girl died on sept 3rd from what i know know is the same as your little ones. her illness came on very fast~ sat and sun she looked good and late sun nite she was down for the count, mon being the holiday i had a hard time finding a vet to help me, i did find an emergency clinic and drove the 45 min drive to take her in ( holiday bill $145w/meds) he gave her an injection of and sent her home with meds.
she made it thru the nite and morning of tues~sadly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> she died tues afternoon. i have since felt so bad that her diet was not complete and caused her illness.
thank you for posting this as it has gotten me to post my story. crying, crying, and crying i am :-(

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#3934 - 09/14/02 05:58 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Phil, would you mind if we moved this to Real Stories? I know it is hard for you. But then it can go onto the Glider Health page as well as stay here at Glider Central.
If we move it then it will be closed an of course we will want an update here in this forum. Let us know. Thanks
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#3935 - 09/14/02 08:05 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sure thing not a problem at all. I actually figured it would be moved anyway when Sam died. I am still sad as are Tracy and Mike but we will be fine and life does go on. I will post another update on Mary soon and hopefully she will have put some weight on for me. She's face down in some fruit juice and baby cereal as we speak and munched mealies all day so things are looking very good so far. Thanks again everyone for the kind words.
Phil

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#3936 - 09/14/02 11:17 PM Re: I screwed up bad.... [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Thanks Phil, I am moving this to Real Stories.
However I do hope we continue to hear updates on your little one.
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Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely....
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