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#400054 - 10/17/07 10:26 AM "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM!
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Yes, that's right... I said it... I have had 2 male gliders neutered in the last 3 weeks, my vet removes the pom, and they are both FINE!

Lately everyone has been hearing the horror stories and now everyone thinks that just because a pom is removed, the glider will SM. That is not always the case.

I though I would share my experience with my 2 gliders. Both never touched the "area" and healed beautifully. Not a single problem, you would have never even known it was done.

Please don't avoid a neuter, just because you are afraid of the horror storries of glider SM'ing. There are plenty, if not more that get neutered and are fine!

Remember bad news always travels faster than good news.

...I will now get off my soap box...
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Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

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#400072 - 10/17/07 10:46 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: krysKritters]
Kiiru Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 2969
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Poor Krys. Yeah, there are so many neuter horror stories out there and almost all of them had poms removed.

I think it mainly depends on the vet and glider as to if they will sm or not, not if the pom was removed.

I'm just a paranoid future mom. roflmao

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#400115 - 10/17/07 11:33 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: Kiiru]
WannaBeMom
Unregistered


Hey Krys and Kiiru

It IS unfortunate that the information regarding neutering out there, whether adequate or not, is primarily targeted at Pom OFF scenarios. As a first time mom to two gliders, I feel I HAVE to learn by example and use that when going to the vet.

I too am having my glider neutered on Friday, and have decided to have the Pom left ON. Even if the "statistics" are superficial, the information out there shows by experience, that those that chose to have the Pom removed, had a higher instance of SMing than those that elected to keep the Pom and/or use laser surgery.

Surgery for anyone is a big decision...so I just needed to add this for those of us who have decided on Pom ON neuters.

BUT...I also must add that more people should share their experiences with neutering these little guys...GOOD or BAD! So...thank you Krys. I hope this helps others out there trying to make the right decision for THEIR glider, whatever that may be. And good for you for making that decision.

laugh


Edited by WannaBeMom (10/17/07 11:36 AM)

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#400127 - 10/17/07 11:47 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: ]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
I agree surgery is ALWAYS a big decision to make. I just wanted to point out that while "pomless" neuters may have a higher rate of SM. All of mine have been fine, so I wanted to report the good side for gliders owners can have both side of the situation to concider in their decision.

I trust my vet and he said this was they way he did it, so I went with it. I did research but again, I trust his many years of experience and there are also many other precautions he takes against SM with gliders.

Again, I just wanted everyone to see I have had positive experience with it. I can't comment on a "pom on" neuter because I have had no experience with it but I think if anyone else has they too should report, not only the negative but the positive experiences also. grin

This way maybe people will not worry so much on the negatives of neutering but the many benifits of it as well, such as no "unwanted" joeys.
_________________________
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Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

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#400139 - 10/17/07 12:00 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: krysKritters]
WannaBeMom
Unregistered


Thank you again. Very well said.

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#400141 - 10/17/07 12:02 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: krysKritters]
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4801
Loc: SE Minnesota..
My very first neuter was removed Pom neuter as well. Patches healed wonderfully, and never had a problem. There is a chance with any surgery, and I do think pom-less neuters have gotten a pretty bad rap.

I believe it has alot to do with the vet, and controlling pain as well.
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Mom to
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#400142 - 10/17/07 12:03 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: krysKritters]
Holly1221 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 2321
Loc: Maryland
[font:comic sans ms]Krys, i agree with you. many of the stories you here concern pomless neuters rather than pom-on neuters. although in both case i feel you still run the risk either way. my Misos was neutered over the summer. his pom was left on. not only did he not mess with the site other than to groom it, the vet i used, gave me NO pain meds for him.

yes, bad news does so out travel the good news in most cases. frown [/font]
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Misos Phoenix Keegan Knuckles // Asa Etienne Kyrian // Cheyenne Peyton Godiva

RIP my sweet gangel babies, mommy loves you!

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#400196 - 10/17/07 01:50 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: Holly1221]
TracyLynn
Unregistered


Just wanted to add that I have had 12 neutered with poms removed in the last 6 month with no SM issues at all - all went well & were back with cage mates same day.

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#400214 - 10/17/07 02:28 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: ]
WannaBeMom
Unregistered


That is really amazing TracyLynn!! WOW.

I think that is one of my biggest fears now...is that my guys cagemage (female) will be the one to do him harm...

Same day huh? I guess you just have to watch them closely...and for that...it doesn't matter WHICH procedure you have.

laugh

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#400277 - 10/17/07 04:17 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: ]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41284
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
I'm also glad to see this thread, however, I'm sure we all want to emphasize the importance of making sure the vet you choose is experienced when it comes to neutering these little guys. I am convinced this makes all the difference in the world.

My guys were neutered several years ago, poms off with no pain meds sent home. I was skeptical about the pain meds however I trusted she knew what she was doing. She just happened to be the vet for the primates at our zoo and had neutered some of the males in our glider exhibit.

My guys went back with their families 24 hours after surgery and have never had a problem.

I think the practice is more common to leave the pom on but like I said, I personally think the experience of the vet is the most important issue.
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#400294 - 10/17/07 04:39 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: KarenE]
melek007 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 3874
Loc: Eastern NC
My Levent had his pom removed and didn't SM.
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#400326 - 10/17/07 05:14 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: melek007]
North_Nocturne Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 607
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Both my males were neutered with the pom removed and had no problems at all. They recovered amazingly fast and didn't even need their pain meds. I never separated them after surgery or even removed the wheel from their cage and they were perfectly fine. One of my gliders is an overgroomer and will occasionally give himself little thinning or bald spots on his head but he didn't overgroom or SM when his pom was removed.
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#400369 - 10/17/07 06:11 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: North_Nocturne]
Nari
Unregistered


I just had my male neutered and the vert removed the pom. When I suggested leaving it he basically told me that it didn't make any sense. He said he's done over 50 of these neuters on gliders and not a single one ever SM. So I trusted him. When I got home, my glider would not leave his incision site alone. I was terrified that he was going to hurt himself. I called them vet, and he said it would be okay. But I put an ecollar on him anyway as advised by members of this board, including Bourbon, who was so nice to talk me through it on the phone! I don't know if he would have hurt himself or not, but i really didn't want to risk it. I trust my vet and to quote Bourbon, "To not remove the pom would be a job half done!". So everything is fine and I took him out of the collar after 4 days. People around here definately do make me nervous about things, but I'd definately rather play it safe than wind up with a dead glider.

So I guess, with or without the pom, you just never know. Each individual glider is going to act differently.

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#400550 - 10/17/07 11:26 PM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I really love seeing the positives but like KarenE said, it is all about the vet I believe.

I also want to stress, pom on or off, be prepared for the worst. Have that ecollar with the glider AT the vet's office. Make sure you and the vet know how to put one on. Know who you can call in the middle of the night for help IF you need it.

Then sit back and call yourself a paranoid overworrier when your boy comes home, eats a yogie and goes in and snuggles up with his mate and laughs at you for being so silly.

(In a situation of post neuter SM, FIRST get an ecollar on them and then my phone number is 620 215 4857. I'll help all I can.)

Oh, I'm all for the pom on way though... 30 neuters, only 2 were pom off and they both tried to sm (no damage because I was prepared and had the ecollars right there) and both took over a week to heal. For me, that compared to the rest that were pom on and were back in with their mates that night...I'll stick with pom on.
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#400605 - 10/18/07 02:02 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: Dancing]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
No, it's not always the case. The point is that it INCREASES the chance, not guarantees it. But for every 3 that SM post neuter, 2 are poms removed. They also, instead of going after the pom first, go straight at the abdomen. So having worked with the SMs for over 4 years now, I've noticed that if they do, it happens more often with the pom taken off, and more serious damage is done quicker if they do SM. The one time I recommend removing the pom is when a glider is already SMing from a hormonal cause-it removes the rest of the things in there that, however small the amount, still produces some hormones. It's the reason why a glider WITH the pom frequently will have a small bald spot, and without most often doesn't at all. My own Riker had his pom removed for that reason (none of my other did, and only one tore into himself, which quit when the pain meds kicked in). Riker wouldn't leave it alone for a month post neuter, and had to stay in the collar until he did. Binx had his removed by the same vet that did Riker, and did just fine.

So, no, a glider is not guaranteed to SM with pom removed. It depends on 1-the vet and how good they are, and 2-the pain tolerance of the glider, for both methods. All things being equal, the risk is still greater with pom off. Either way, though, the best thing is to be prepared for it no matter which way it's done, while hoping you don't need any of it.


Edited by Xfilefan (10/18/07 02:04 AM)
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#400611 - 10/18/07 03:01 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: Xfilefan]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Our vet was going to remove the poms, I said no way. She left poms ON, gave him enough meds to keep him "loopy" for awhile and sent me home with a vial of Torb. I wasn't taking any chances. I also kept him (and his mate) in a pouch WITH me for 24 hours, fed him and gave him water. He was too out of it to climb out on his own and was bobbing his head around. LOL

I'm taking his sons in to be neutered next week. Same thing for us, poms are staying ON. No glue or outside stitches.

One other thing our vet did NOT do was shave him. She said by shaving the site before neutering causes itching and gliders WILL go after the site. Makes sense.
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#400633 - 10/18/07 05:55 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: SugarBlossoms]
North_Nocturne Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 607
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Is there any statistical proof that removing the pom actually increases the rate of SM or is it all personal experience and anecdotal evidence? Has there ever even been any kind of informal study done to try to figure out some percentages on how often gliders SM when their pom is removed? I know I don't have the skills to put something like that together but just in this one thread there are a heck of a lot gliders who have not SM when their pom was removed. Have other factors been taken into consideration such as method of closure, whether the area was shaved, etc.?
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gliders. Nocturne & Lark

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#400638 - 10/18/07 06:19 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: North_Nocturne]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
All I can give you are the numbers I've dealt with. When the pom is removed, glue or stitches has to be used, when it's not-nothing is typically used to close. Of the about 4 dozen or so SM gliders I've personally dealt with that SMed post neuter, 2 had pom removed and glue or stitches, for every 1 that was pom left and no closure, and the pom removed gliders typically had worse damage faster, and more of them died as a result of the mutilation. Time in collar was typically longer as well, as result of the damage done before it was caught. But all I've got is personal experience walking people through what to ask the vet for, and helping them get the collar made/on the glider, cage setup, and so forth. It can happen either way. When there is a foreign substance such as glue or stitches, the glider is more likely to pick at the incision, making it hurt, and leading to SM, particularly if there is no pain management.

If there's a vet that's done anything on numbers I wouldn't mind hearing, too. To date, this subject is less dealt with than diets in this country, and that's been minimal-one domestic study I'm aware of, with a group to start of only 9 gliders, 8 that made it all the way through, one being removed from the study part way through because he SMed. dunno
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#400639 - 10/18/07 06:20 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: North_Nocturne]
cinnamonstix Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 3420
Loc: Twin Cities, MN
Both of my boys were pom-off neuters. Scared the holy heck out of me from hrading the "bad" of course...but trusted my vet. It was very stressful...my older male was brought back to me after his operation just as he was waking up. My vet would not give pain meds until they awoke...so not to mix them with the anesthesia and cause potential issues...well they took my second male in to do his neuter and mid operation for him...Icarus was biting himself and started bleeding. I freaked out...ran in the other room for someone to take my glider. The Dr and assistant came back...gave him the meds and he was ok after that. Then they brought my little guy back to me and he was going to go after it too, they medded him and were going to put him in an e-collar...you should have heard him put up a fight. Anyone that has heard about my baby boy...knows he is VERY vocal...and you could hear him loud and clear rooms away...after that...they decided to skip the colloars and told me to make sure to keep the meds RIGHT ON...and not to over-medicate.

They had me sit for 1/2 an hour to supervise for potential issues...which there were none. I had some issues with claws dug into my back and my baby hiding on my back right where I could not reach him...he was pretty spooked and doped out from those meds...and Icaurus just sat like a nice boy on the table.

No problems, so we brough them home...they hated the meds...had to force it. Kept them in a pouch for hours...finally allowed them to go back to their cages with their mates. Only cage changes that were made was coconuts were removed (hard to get them out at med time...so I knew to take care of it before hand) and moved their sleeping pouches and food dishes lower. Everything else was left as is and wheels were not removed.

Checked on them quite often, looked at them and the site...no problems ever. Day one...meds were every 6 hours, as was day 2, day 3 we bumped it to ecery 12 hours and day 4 none were given at all.

So I left with a stress headache...but it was from worry and from the chewing upon awakening...but otherwise all was well and my boys were all right!
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#400641 - 10/18/07 06:25 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: cinnamonstix]
cinnamonstix Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 3420
Loc: Twin Cities, MN
By the way...my vet is the same vet for Terri's Petting Zoo and he does a LOT of neuters...he does not see very many problems with SM from what he told me...it is the vets word to someone getting a neuter...but if a breeder here uses them...I would think he has to be doing something right and that ist would be truthful. He was a genuinly nice guy...very willing to help out with my degu after he trimmed her tooth and it became loose a couple weeks later...followed up with her and did not charge me anything to remove the tooth or look at her...definitly earned some points in my book!
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Crazy BF Dru
Tortoise: Vork
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Suggies: Meeko, Willow & Nemo; Icarus & Ivy; Howie & Gracie; Rei & Syfka; Rafiki & Rajah, Opal, Lily & Link, Tael, Tatl & Navi

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#400715 - 10/18/07 09:56 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: SugarBlossoms]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
...No glue or outside stitches.

One other thing our vet did NOT do was shave him. She said by shaving the site before neutering causes itching and gliders WILL go after the site. Makes sense.


My vet does not shave the area as well. He does use stitch but they are internal. He does 3 layers of internal stitches. So if the glider does manage to chew through a "layer of stitching" there are 2 more to hold the site closed.
Also I drop the gliders off at 8:30 am and he does them first. I normally get a call around 10:30-11am that he is done. Then he keeps them for the rest of the day for observation. I normally pick them up around 4-5pm.
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Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

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#402691 - 10/22/07 08:59 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: krysKritters]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Pom Off here on five males with NO PROBLEMS!!

I have to totally agree, I believe it is all about the vet and how they do it. Even if one vet is experienced mainly in leaving the poms on and one day decides to take the next ones off, something within the procedure could have went wrong even slightly, therefore making a problem and then looking like it is too high risk to remove the poms.

Know your vet, and make sure your vet knows gliders. thumb
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#402693 - 10/22/07 09:05 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: Srlb]
Leyna
Unregistered


All the neuters I've had done were pomless and I've never had a problem... I think it kind of depends on how close to the pom that they are cut off. The closer to the pom, the smaller the surgery site... I don't think any of my boys needed stitches or glue even, the vet just used an antiseptic powder (like QuiqStop).

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#402705 - 10/22/07 09:53 AM Re: "Pomless Neuter" does NOT mean they will SM! [Re: ]
mommawannabe Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2443
Loc: Roanoke, Virginia
I had Sydney neutered and she took the whole pom and he immediately went for the site. I had him done on Oct1 and he is still wearing an e-collar and will until it is completely healed. The healing is taking longer due to the fact that he did go after the site. Also I really feel like it is the glue he is trying to get off of there. Sorry forgot to add that I just took him to the vet and she thinks he should be getting the collar off soon.

Anna


Edited by mommawannabe (10/22/07 09:54 AM)
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