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#40658 - 03/21/05 05:15 PM Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Intense)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Two Gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory.

A punnance square based upon only one gene based phenotype will give 25%, 50% ect... but if there is more than one gene involved than these numbers can change. A 16 square cube is used instead of a 4 square cube when assessing two genes. Lets assume gene A is dominate and gene B is recessive and it requires two recessive and one dominate to make the color. Then the following would be produced:

A = gene not present
a = gene present
B = gene not present
b = gene present

Aabb or aabb will produce WFB phenotype then:

The probability of producing a WFB from a AaBb x AaBb is:

WFB Phenotype:
aabb = 1
Aabb = 2
Total = 3 of 16 or 18.75%

Normal Phenotype
AaBb = 4
AaBB = 2
AAbb = 1
AABb = 2
AABB = 1
aaBB = 1
aaBb = 2

Total = 13 of 16 or 81.25%

Now letís assume that the genes are doubly dominate. That is to say that you would need only one copy of EACH gene to have the phenotype. Then the following would break down from a AaBb x AaBb mating where:

Aabb, aabb, AaBb, or aaBb

would be a WFB.

The 16 square punnance would still be used and the same results as before would be produced.

WFB phenotype:

Aabb = 2
aabb = 1
AaBb = 4
aaBb = 2
Total = 9 of 16 or 56.25%

Lets now assume that a WFB is mated to a normal non-gene carrier, ie. AaBb (WFB) x AABB (Normal) then the following would be expected.

Normal Phenotype:

AABB = 4
AABb = 4
AaBB = 4
Total = 12 of 16 or 75%
Leaving 25% AaBb (WFB)

Now lets assume that a WFB is mated to a normal carrying one dominate but not the other dominate gene, ie. AaBb (WFB) x AaBB (Normal). The numbers are the same for AaBb(WFB) x AABb. The following would then be expected:

Normal Phenotype:

AABB = 2
AaBB = 4
AABb = 2
aaBB = 2
Total = 10 of 16 or 62.5%

WFB Phenotype:
AaBb = 6
Total = 6 of 16 or 37.5%

Therefore on this it is possible to mate a normal non-gene carrier to a WFB and get WFB joeys 25% of the time, and to mate a WFB to a normal with one dominate gene and get WFB joeys 37.5% of the time. Most importantly if a WFB mated to a WFB it would only produce joeys 56.25% of the time. To my knowledge no WFB is producing 100% of the time. This can be explained by either:

A) The aabb gene is lethal and joeys that have this are aborted before dropping into the pouch.

or

B) We do not have enough WFB yet being bred that would produce a pure WFB aabb.

If A is true then only 8 of 16 or 50% of AaBb (WFB) x AaBb (WFB) would produce a WFB.

However we might not have a high enough sampling of WFB matings to say that a WFB bred to WFB produces a WFB only 60% of the time.

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#40659 - 03/21/05 05:45 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Isn't it a punnett square?
Interesting theory you have <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

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#40660 - 03/21/05 05:46 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Intense) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


WOW thats really good I think I have to read it again... LOL

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#40661 - 03/21/05 06:41 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Intense) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was told a normal grey mated with a WFB will give you WFB joeys 66% of the time? Is this untrue?



Ern <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

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#40662 - 03/21/05 06:55 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Intense) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL Ern, you are right, ya big smart... [censored]... LOL! Quit giving Ushuaia a hard time. Might have to take a round outta ya! LOL! *raises his "dukes"*

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#40663 - 03/21/05 07:01 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Intense) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> Ern

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#40664 - 03/21/05 11:05 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Intense) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Cool! Interesting inference...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
To my knowledge no WFB is producing 100% of the time. This can be explained by either:

A) The aabb gene is lethal and joeys that have this are aborted before dropping into the pouch.

or

B) We do not have enough WFB yet being bred that would produce a pure WFB aabb.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

...or to make things even more complex...

C) More than two genes are involved (i.e. more than just A & B)... I think a better term might be "alleles", as opposed to "genes".

or even...

D) it involves other factors like incomplete dominance (who says that the wfb isn't an intermediate of some rare homozygous recessive phenotype like leucistic whose phenotype is aabb?... only hypothetical); or multiple alleles (who says more than just 2 possible alleles - 1 dominant and 1 recessive - aren't involved in a pairing...? There could be 3 or 4 or more, much like the multiple alleles involved in determining human blood type); or both (who says that there aren't 10 allele pairings involved each with 3 or 4 different possible alleles, for instance?); and there are several other factors which could tie in...

or even...

E) It can be any combination of A), B), C), or D)...

I'm not too sure how likely possibility A (the theory of the aabb phenoptype being lethal) is, though... I'm thinking, there are other possibilities somewhat more likely... Hmmm... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> In terms of possibility B), I'm rather confident in saying that the wfb lineages are quite established and I'm sure there would have to be a homozygous recessive (i.e. aabb) member out there somewhere by now. In light of this and the fact that there are no known wfb to produce wfb joeys 100% of the time, I think it's highly likely that the wfb genetics fall much deeper than what has been proposed here (in possibilities A) and B) anyway!)...


I just wanted to quickly mention again how complicated genetics can get. The Punnett Square chart is much of a basic template for the calculation of base genetics; in most cases, the mojority of geneticist work often deals with quite complex factors, and there exist infact a whole set of SIDE-RULES and PRINCIPLES and factors that are involved, making such cases beyond the reachings of any Punnett Square calculation. It's like a humongous maze of possibilities when it comes to genetics. Ever wonder why textbooks always use the same examples (e.g. eye colour, hair colour/texture, ear lobes/no ear lobes, rolling tongue/non-rolling tongue, etc)? It's because those are the most straight forward and basic examples of the basic dominant/recessive principles of genetics. Other things like the genes determining teeth formation/arrangment, the genes determining some types of human albinism, the genes determining behaviours, etc, are extremely complex involving so many factors ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> there is even evidence from twin case studies that even the most remote things like what you name your kids/pets and preference in cars and choice of extra curricular activities are all also genetically influenced!!! PM me for details... Exploring Psychology, Worth Publishers, D. G. Meyers 2002, pg. 75). To me, Ushuaia's model makes very good sense (KUDOS ON THE FANTASTIC MATH WORK AND MIND WORK!!!) up until the part where the breeding statistics (which is the closest thing we have to glider genetic evidence at this point) imply some rather remote and questionable circumstances (i.e. possibilities A) and B))... Although this genetic model/theory could indeed be true, it's as I mentioned before still a rather remote possibility, considering the multitude of other likely possibilities (however my statement right there cannot even be exactly proven either, simply due a lack of anything concrete in the research/knoweldge on glider genetics!)...

Whatever the case, Ushuaia is very correct... the math can get fairly intensive!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#40665 - 03/21/05 11:45 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Intense) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


wow!!!!!!!! lol

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#40666 - 03/22/05 01:30 AM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


lol, Mikey, you crack me up!
Where does the info store itself?!
Genetics give me a headache <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />

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#40667 - 03/22/05 01:54 AM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered



<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" /> owwwee.... *pounding head* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> lolol. Luv <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> Ames!!

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#40668 - 03/22/05 07:51 AM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, even though I have no idea whats going on in this thread lol, I just wanted to say good job for everyone taking their time with this. Unfortunatly, my brain can't process math of any kind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nopity.gif" alt="" />

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#40669 - 03/22/05 08:02 AM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


i'm lost....... i should have phil explain this to me tonight... *prints off thread*

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#40670 - 03/22/05 10:28 AM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


okay.. so i read it some and i slightly understand it

however, i'm not sure how it can be used.. i have no clue what lette/genetic combination my gliders would be...

also, in the instance of a white faced gray and not a white faced blonde... what would that genetic makeup be....

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#40671 - 03/22/05 10:49 AM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, the letters (e.g. A and B, a and b) are only arbitrary letters (not set letters designated for specific alleles per se)... they're simply used as symbols to represent the alleles in question, and in the case of Ushuaia's example he uses A/a and B/b to represent the alleles responsible for the wfb, whichever alleles they may be (we don't know the exact gene location but we know it's there so we use letters to represent them to work out the theory)... Ushuaia could have chosen to use XxYy or QqUu or whatever letters... TREEtreeDOGdog lol... they're simply variables, the exact alleles (in the chormosomes) of which are irrelevant...

...Kind of like how we use letters in algebra to represent unknowns that we know exist...

... and to answer your question about white faced grey, the answer is - we really don't know what the allele figures are. They could may as well be AaBbCcYyXxGgTtSs for all we know (probably not but, it's not by any means an possibility)... Infact, we don't really know the genetics behind any colour phase for sure, simply due to how much glider colour genetics is largely unexplored territory. We haven't had enough breedings to determine anything for sure, much like humans have been able to with rats and mice and reptiles, etc.

Until then, we can only make inferences and propose theories (like Ushuaia has done here) based on the breeding statistics of glider breeders. That is to say, we can look at percentages of particular parents of a particular colour giving rise to joeys of a particular colour and see if we can identify any trends/consistencies, and thereby attempt at guessing what's going on genetically. Knowing the theory helps, but quite honestly it's rather complex stuff <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />. I HATED genetics class lol!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

PS - <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> KUDOS to all you glider breeders out there! Your records are invaluable! The world of glider genetics lies greatly in your hands!

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#40672 - 03/22/05 04:02 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am very busy with papers and college work right now; I will try to post more here including the graphs that show the punnance calculations. I have not done a punnance square on the possibility of breeding an AAbb x AaBb so I will now do this.

Normal Phenotype:

AABb: 4
AAbb: 4
Total 8 of 16 or 50%

WFB Phenotype:

AaBb: 4
Aabb: 4
Total 8 of 16 or 50%

Now lets examine some breeding statistics.

About 60% WFB are produced when WFB is bred to WFB.

About Up to 50% of WFB are produced from normals bred to WFB.

Blondes exhist in the range of color genetics.

White Faced Normals exist in the range of glider color genetics.

I have found one breeder that breeds WFB that has a WFB that has produced nothing but WFB. This is possible evidence of an aabb glider.

No complete genealogy has been done on the WFB line. Until such a genealogy is created it is not possible to gauge the accuracy of 60% as the probability of WFB produced from WFB x WFB matings.

Also WFB is a really common phenotype that is easily produced. Given the frequency and number of WFB it is very unlikely that any more than 3 alleles are involved.

Blondes that are not white faced and White faced gliders that are not blondes are color variations that are seen so it argues against the fact that there is any blending of phenotypes such as would be seen in incomplete dominance.

Also it is very possible that there are a number of gliders that are AAbb (assuming bb is blonde phenotype), or that are AABb. Because blonde is a very difficult phenotype to identify it can often go unnoticed in the population, or other phenotypes might mask it.

What is really needed is an exhaustive genealogy to be created on the WFB lines and to take the total numbers produced and get an accurate average. This would not prove but be a great tool to determine what allele are involved.

I will attempt to create this geneology over the summer much like I have done for the leucistic line.

Ushuaia

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#40673 - 03/22/05 04:25 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmmm... I'm not sure... Ah... I can't help but get so involved in this thread... just wanted to address a few things...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I have found one breeder that breeds WFB that has a WFB that has produced nothing but WFB. This is possible evidence of an aabb glider.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

But I thought we just established that this aabb glider (or more importantly a wfb glider that produced 100% wfb) didn't really exist as of yet or to the best of our knowledge?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Also WFB is a really common phenotype that is easily produced. Given the frequency and number of WFB it is very unlikely that any more than 3 alleles are involved.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

In an allele pairing....? Not true... there can still be more than 2 or 3 alleles involved, with one or more of the alleles being more recessive than the others. Thus, it would increase the frequency of the recessive phenotypes, i.e. more wfb...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Blondes that are not white faced and White faced gliders that are not blondes are color variations that are seen so it argues against the fact that there is any blending of phenotypes such as would be seen in incomplete dominance.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

In light of the fact that multiple alleles can be a factor, incomplete dominance can definitely still be a possibility. Incomplete dominance involves an intermediate phenotype which in this case, should it also involve multiple alleles, there can exist various forms of that intermediate phenotype (wfb, white face grey, grey face blond, etc). PM me if you need a further model.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What is really needed is an exhaustive genealogy to be created on the WFB lines and to take the total numbers produced and get an accurate average. This would not prove but be a great tool to determine what allele are involved.

I will attempt to create this geneology over the summer much like I have done for the leucistic line.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I totally agree with you here, Ushuaia. A geneology is desperately needed. Best of luck in that endeavor and in what you are doing for the glider community, seeing as your work will greatly benefit our understanding of the glider genetics!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#40674 - 03/22/05 04:33 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good info takes forever to read it all but its good!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

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#40675 - 03/22/05 06:35 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have been following this very closely and am very intrigued by what you are hypothesizing Ushuaia. I am going to continue to keep a close eye on this. As of yet, I do not have anything to say, although there are parts where I agree and disagree. The aabb theory being one of them, and how it does not exist yet. It cannot be proven to exist or not I do not think, but, since it is a theory, in theory should it not be able to? I am just thinking out loud here and not replying or adding anything to this. I will jump in one of these days though, lol. I commend you on your work on this!

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#40676 - 03/22/05 06:57 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


very interesting... having a basic handle on genetics is def required to truly understand this, and thankfully I can at least follow if not add to this discussion...

I think it's an interesting theory (and yes, you cannot prove a theory, merely disprove it) and I agree that an extensive geneology is required in order to get a better idea of the genetics taking place here

great work, and good luck w/ the geneology; it's going to be hard work!

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#40677 - 03/23/05 10:51 AM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I will say right now that I do not have a degree in genetics, I have a basic understanding of genetics, heredity, and statistics.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
But I thought we just established that this aabb glider (or more importantly a wfb glider that produced 100% wfb) didn't really exist as of yet or to the best of our knowledge?


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

When I got home I called up a breeder who has considerable experience with WFB and she told me she had a WFB that has had only 5 joeys so far but all were WFB. No amount of breeding can Prove that the white faced blonde is aabb however if it has a joey that is not WFB it will prove that that individual is not a aabb. Only identifying the aabb genes and then using electrophoresis will prove the genetic makeup of a glider.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
an allele pairing....? Not true... there can still be more than 2 or 3 alleles involved, with one or more of the alleles being more recessive than the others. Thus, it would increase the frequency of the recessive phenotypes, i.e. more wfb...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Once you start getting into more than 2 or 3 genes involved the punnance square is really difficult to do and confusing. However it still gives information about the frequencies. You can do a 5 or 6 gene punnance but it would be very time consuming. The more genes are added to the punnance and the more "specific" the gene sequences must be the lower the frequency that they will occur. So it would be very unlikly that the WFB gene would be more than 3 genes, even if the All of them were dominate, which would give you the greatest frequency, the individual would still need to possess all of the genes.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
In light of the fact that multiple alleles can be a factor, incomplete dominance can definitely still be a possibility. Incomplete dominance involves an intermediate phenotype which in this case, should it also involve multiple alleles, there can exist various forms of that intermediate phenotype (wfb, white face grey, grey face blond, etc). PM me if you need a further model.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I agree here, I simply ment in my last post that there is not blending seen that these traits are only seen as all or none so this limits the possibilities of what type of transmission is going on here.

I would like to have the breeders of WFB contact me.
[]Ushuaia_mail@yahoo.com[/]

I want to get a list of breeder of WFB and contact info so I will be able to work on this as I get the time.

Ushuaia

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#40678 - 03/23/05 11:16 AM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ushuaia, I totally applaud your efforts and I think what you are doing is good, and I think it is a great contribution to the glider community. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
I certainly don't have any desire to tackle your task, and I don't think I could, complex genetics makes me feel ill, lol.
I hope everything goes well, but I have to ask you one thing... Would you quit calling it a punnance square?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />
I'm not trying to be a smart-[censored], it's just making it hard for me to focus on the actual information in the post.
What can I say? I'm easily distracted <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
This is the word you are looking for: PUNNETT SQUARE

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#40679 - 03/23/05 11:24 AM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


sorry I always get them mixed up, and I am not at home and so I do not have spell check to correct it for me.

Ushuaia

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#40680 - 03/23/05 12:44 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ah LOL Here I go again... *knocking myself in the head with a bat*... Well, I'm a Zoology Major and I have spent long hours with my head into the books (especially genetics books) and in laboratories, writing papers on this stuff. Now, I am by no means a proffessional geneticist, but I too have a general knowledge on genetics theory and I wanted to point out some things...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Once you start getting into more than 2 or 3 genes involved the punnance square is really difficult to do and confusing. However it still gives information about the frequencies. You can do a 5 or 6 gene punnance but it would be very time consuming. The more genes are added to the punnance and the more "specific" the gene sequences must be the lower the frequency that they will occur. So it would be very unlikly that the WFB gene would be more than 3 genes, even if the All of them were dominate, which would give you the greatest frequency, the individual would still need to possess all of the genes.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Ushuaia, (I know for most people on this board, debating over this kind of stuff seems really senseless and montonous but I can't help but point out any information presented here that might be misleading for purposes of our understanding on the glider genetics) I still respectfully do not agree with you on this statement. It is incorrect to say that simply due to gene specificity, the lower the chances of getting wfb to be expressed. The reason it is incorrect to say this is because you're making an assumption on the nature of the wfb genotype. Yes, the Punnett Square would be long and time consuming and confusing (as genetics normally is) and normally adding to the axes of the Punnett Square would decrease the frequency of particular reccessive traits, however, you have to understand that we're dealing with the white face blond phenotype - a phenotype whose genotype is still greatly unknown. In light of all the various kinds of wfb, how do we know that several genotypes (i.e. several allele combos as opposed to only 2 - aabb and Aabb in your dual allele pair theory) don't cause the wfb phase to be expressed? Assuming there are 3 or more allele pairs involved, with all these different kinds of wfb (light, dark, wfg, gfb) how do we know that several genotypes don't give rise to the wfb phenotype (e.g. AabbCcdd = light wfb; AabbccDd = dark white face blond; aabbccDd = light faced blond; etc)? In other words, how do we know that each form of the wfb doesn't have a specific but different combination of both dominant and recessive alleles; and in light of this, it's still very much so possible to have 3 or more allele pairs; in light of this even a Punnett Square of 10 X 10 (or more) could still possibly give us the 60% wfb outcome (whatever kind the joeys may be - light wfb, dark wfb, etc). To tell you the truth, if the breeders say the number is about 60% wfb joeys from 2 wfb parents, I feel more confident on relying on that approximation than any Punnett Square calculation, especially since we don't know anything about the nature of the genetics right now. We can't construct Punnett Squares and rely on what they tell us if we don't know the conditions of the genes first.

Also, in regards to that number (60%), I'm sure you may know that Punnet squares are only mathematical approximations of probability and aren't exact figures per se. A few values + or - the Punnett square values are rather irrelevant.

Anyway, I really also applaud you for your efforts on tackling this conundrum but I still highly suspect that there may be more than simply two allele pairings involved (or multiple alleles even) with the wfb genetics and further more, various other factors like incomplete dominance, or even independent assortment of different alleles governing colour. Genes dealing with pigment in general are fairly complex...!


Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

PS - Also, as I mentioned earlier, I think we should watch the terminology a little; you may want to use the word "allele" instead of "gene" because it's more specific and better suited to the context of what we're talking about, so to avoid any confusion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#40681 - 03/23/05 01:30 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've observed that glider head color is sort of independent of the wf(lack of sidebars under the ears) trait.

Especially with the different varieties of wf which are coming out these days.

There are a few variations that I notice in glider color amongst wf gliders.
1)head color, ie, blonde, grey, cinnamon, and variations of intensity among these colors.
2)Some seem to have a deeper blonde veiling, the "sunkissed glider", that extends to about the middle of the back. I have seen what looks almost like someone has drawn a line across the gliders back where the blonde ends. This sometimes happens in the white mosaic mutation of Chinchillas. One half will be white, the other dark.
3)Also, some seem to have "makeup", other have barely any markings around the eyes.

All I know is that I plan on trying to breed wf to wf through successive generations to see what turns out. Right now it's hard to find many gliders with strictly wf in their lines for more than 2 generations. I think that the gliders with the deepest wf lineage are the joeys out of Sheila's Calypso and ?, which are 4th generation wf's.

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#40682 - 03/23/05 01:43 PM Re: Two gene Doubly Dominate WFB Theory (Math Inte [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


See, well then that would describe why the Punnet Square mathwork would be slightly more complex (and more likely than not, involve multiple allele pairs) than simply dealing with two allele pairs i.e. "doubley dominant" allele pairs (as has been suggested in this thread) because, as Ern has just pointed out, the wfb is not even a single colour phase, at all. Therefore, as I mentioned in the previous post ("In light of all the various kinds of wfb, how do we know that several genotypes don't cause the wfb phase to be expressed?"), we're dealing with several genotypes (i.e. not just Aabb or aabb etc). WFB is a result of different independent colour alleles working together to produce the final wfb product (also as I mentioned in my last post, "independent assortment of different alleles governing colour")... This is why I suggested the possibility of multiple allele pairs and multiple alleles governing the wfb phenotype initially... It was simply extremely unlikely in my mind that wfb could possibly only deal with two allele pairings governing the colour phase (i.e. only an A/a and a B/b)...

This just opens up a new can of worms, Big_Ern! LOL. Colour genetics can make one go insane, I tell ya!

In gliders, it's not like a leucistic python or lizard where the genes are relatively simplistic and uniform. Glider colour genetics, like those of several other mammals can get very complicated, in light of the various mutations that we've been able to produce and insert into the captive glider gene pool. You have to be very careful with making direct cross-references to distantly related species in respect to genetic trends, because more often there will be a discrepancy between what is found between the two species. For example, the albino trait is not necessarily sex-linked in some species like some reptiles, however albinism is a sex-linked phenotype in some species of parakeets!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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