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#413000 - 11/08/07 12:49 AM Should I pull my Joey?
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
I had 2 joeys that have been OOP for about 5-7 days. Eyes are still closed, but they are too big to get back in teh pouch. Last night I noticed one was not nursing and i picked him. he felt a little cool to me, but he was in teh pouch with the rest of the family, so I left him alone thinking he would stay warmer that way. today I realized he was canabalized. Now it seems the mother is losing interest in the second Joey. Is it normal for both parents to leave them alone during feeding or should I take it as a sign of rejection and pull him before he meets his brother's fate?

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#413007 - 11/08/07 01:04 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
how long are the parents leaving the joey for? are there any scratch marks? is the remaining joey being kept warm and fed?
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#413009 - 11/08/07 01:07 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
uraqt33 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 1232
Loc: Springfield, IL
You probably need to pull the other joey. Please look at Suz' site about hand raising a joey. Also, it is normal for both parents to leave the joey for a few minutes while they are eating, but if the joey makes any noise they should go to check on him. Also, check to see if the joey has a full tummy. You can see what one looks like on Suz site.
Sorry you're going through this.
Also, is this their first set of joeys?

Suz' Hand Raising A Joey


Edited by uraqt33 (11/08/07 01:08 AM)
_________________________
April
Wife to David heart
Loving mom to 9 glider fuzzbutts
My little angel angel angel : Skittles, Herky, and little Mr. Pickles


Glider Toys Unlimited

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#413014 - 11/08/07 01:16 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I'm so sorry. hug2 Suz is our resident expert on joeys, and could probably best advise you. When you say the mother is losing interest, is she not feeding it? If that's that case, you should supplement feed, at the very least. But it's usually best if the joey is kept with the parents. They keep it warm and stimulate it to go potty. What diet is she on? If she's not got enough protein and calcium in her diet, she may not be able to produce enough milk. Supplement feeding will then help (but it's a rigorous schedule, so be prepared!). Some gliders, especially first-timers, simply do not make good parents. As explained in one of the newsletter links below, it could be because the joey was pulled too early (as often happens with mill breeders selling at trade shows) and the new parent never learned proper skills from its parents.

Here is Suz's size on Hand Raising A Joey. And here are some SunCoast newsletter links that might help:

Hand Rearing Orphaned / Abandoned Joeys - Part I
Hand Rearing Orphaned / Abandoned Joeys - Part II
Cannibalization

It's not normal for both parents to leave the joeys alone for very long; they usually take turns. With my one and only joey experience, it seemed Tomoki was either always eating or riding on Keiko, or riding around on Hiroshi. He was never left alone. I could hold him, and he would whimper after awhile, and they'd both show keen interest in where he was.

If the baby has been abandoned, it must be kept warm, and you must make sure it's eating frequently, and going to the bathroom. Wrapping it in a fleece blankie and tucking the joey down your bra or just close against your skin will help keep it warm.

Good luck!
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

2003: Hiroshi (M)
2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#413025 - 11/08/07 04:38 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: KattyM]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
How is this joey doing now? Is it still with the parents? Have you seen any concrete signs of rejection? or are the parents just leaving it alone for a few minutes at a time? Please post an update for us...

Moving this over to Breeding & Babies now...
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#413068 - 11/08/07 07:40 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
I decided to pull him last night. He was away from his parents for at least 20 minutes, cold, and starting to show signs of dehyration. He slept in my bra all night and I gave him some formula out of a small syringe all night. He seems to like licking it off the end. This morning he is active and strong. I think as long as I can keep him warm and fed he'll pull through this.
Yes, the parents were first timers. Both were from private breeders and kept with their parents until they were at least 8 weeks OOP. I'm really disappointed that they aren't being good parents. The one that they ate...he was the first one OOP, and I handled him for just a few minutes teh day before they killed him. I am having so much guilt tthinking that if I had left him alone, they would have continued taking care of him. But I had read several posts on here saying it was ok to hold them for short periods several days after coming OOP. Was I wrong?

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#413093 - 11/08/07 09:06 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
There's no reason to feel guilty or place any blame on yourself. There could have been something wrong with the baby that was cannibalized that you couldn't see, but mom could sense - it's a natural instinct for them to "remove" the possible threat to the colony (baby has issues and dies, so they dispose of it so as not to attract predators). I held my joeys from the first day, and these 2 were first time parents also. How old are mom and dad? Maybe they weren't mature enough yet to realize what needed to be done for their babies.
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#413110 - 11/08/07 09:34 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: BeckiT]
penniedad
Unregistered


oh my this just happen to me ,,same thing ! my mom and dad are so young, thats all i can think of? my little gaye-ann is doing good but has some diarrhea , does yours?? well god bless are babies,,,,,,,,,,good luck

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#413114 - 11/08/07 09:45 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: ]
purplekat61
Unregistered


I'm going thru all of this right now. I have been hand raising my first pair for 3 weeks now. It isn't as much of a choir as it was in the beginning since they can now eat out of a dish but the worry doesn't lessen easily. They are still bald on their heads but at least I see that they are growing and strong. The one plus side I have had is the bonding with them. They crab when going to someone else in the family....just for a sec....BUT I get kisses! laugh Good luck with your little one....and listen to what Suz has to say....she is our resident Guru!

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#413118 - 11/08/07 09:49 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: ]
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4801
Loc: SE Minnesota..
I am sorry for your loss! But do not blame your self, thse thigs happen and it's not from you touching the baby. hug2 It's very upsetting to see a canablized joey.

It sounds like you made the best choice, and I really urge you to get a joey incubator set up, and the proper supplies for feeding. You can get a joey rejection kit on Suz's page, and the directions to set up the incubator are there as well.

I pray your little grows big and strong for you! We are here for you! hug2
_________________________
Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:


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#413165 - 11/08/07 10:50 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: GliderLove]
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
Mom is right at about a year and dad is a year and a half. I wish I knew for sure how many days OOP this one is. I know I saw the other one several times before I realized there were two. He does have hair all over..just short tiny fuzz. He's about as long as my pinkie, but his eyes aren't open yet. He's sure active. He keeps trying to crawl into my arm pit.

I probably should have asked this sooner, but I am breastfeeding my own skin baby right now. Since I took him, I have just been clensing my breasts with antibacterial soap before nursing him. Is there anything else I should do, or should I keep him out of my bra? I haven't seen anything that says Suggies carry salmonela like some other animals.

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#413186 - 11/08/07 11:11 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
hug2 I'm sorry to hear about the loss of the first joey. Like everyone has said, there is a reason for the parents to do this, sometimes we have to clue why things happen the way that they do. Please don't blame yourself or the parents, they too will need extra love and affection.
As for keeping the other joey in your bra, since your still nursing your human baby, as long as your washing in between you should be alright.
Wishing you all the best! Your doing a wonderful job with him.....Keep up the good work... hug2

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#413192 - 11/08/07 11:22 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: LSardou]
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
Next question...any "tricks" for stimulating potty? So far I haven't been able to get anything except maybe some urine.And I am used to what the adult clocoa looks like. The babies (both boys)have what looks like a tube with a penis looking thing coming out of it all the time. Is that normal?

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#413196 - 11/08/07 11:32 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
uraqt33 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 1232
Loc: Springfield, IL
Originally Posted By: pixiedust
The babies (both boys)have what looks like a tube with a penis looking thing coming out of it all the time. Is that normal?


Even girl joeys have that. It's what the mother licks to stimulate the joeys to go to the bathroom.
What I've found that works best to stimulate them to "go" is to use a damp Q-Tip and rub it on the cloaca.


Edited by uraqt33 (11/08/07 01:41 PM)
_________________________
April
Wife to David heart
Loving mom to 9 glider fuzzbutts
My little angel angel angel : Skittles, Herky, and little Mr. Pickles


Glider Toys Unlimited

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#413397 - 11/08/07 04:20 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: uraqt33]
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
Well..I've been trying the q tip thing all day and still no poop. Other than that he seems to be doing great. He's eating easily and staying warm snuggled up against me. He's frisky. Sometimes it's difficult just to hold him still long enough to drop the puppy formula in his mouth.

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#413448 - 11/08/07 05:33 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
It is not uncommon for them to not poop for the first 24 hours after rejection. I think it's probably something to do with the dehydration they go through. You should be able to get him to go soon. It will be slightly yellowish orange and very soft.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#413600 - 11/08/07 09:11 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Dillon_2401
Unregistered


sorry gor your lost i just
currently lost my glider Gizmo in a accedent
sorry hug2

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#413637 - 11/08/07 09:54 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: ]
SweetGliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/17/01
Posts: 2400
Loc: Tulsa, OK, USA
Hi Pixiedust,
I am here in Tulsa if you need any help PM or email me your number and I'll be glad to help you out. I have help hand raise lots of rejected and or orphaned joeys. My email address is: sweetgliders@cox.net or my cell # 918-639-0593.

Anita heart
_________________________
Anita heart
www.mysweetgliders.com

Owned by many Gliders & Cats + Wife to a Wonderful & Understanding Husband


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#413647 - 11/08/07 10:09 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: SweetGliders]
Megr
Unregistered


Sorry about your lose. hug2

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#413678 - 11/08/07 10:40 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: ]
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
Thanks Anita! I had already thought of pming you if I get into trouble.
He's still doing ok. He doesn't seem as active as he was earlier today. He may have just worn himself out though. I've been trying really hard to keep the formula out of his nose, but several times he has turned his head suddenly gotten some in there. He usually blows it out and shakes his head, but I am worried that he's going to get sick from it. I've lost puppies that way. What signs should I look for if he starts going downhill?
Mama has actually been crying for him tonight which suprises me because she didn't seem the least bit upset yesterday when I took him. If he makes it, we're planning on keeping him. I'm wondering how difficult it will be to add him back with his parents..and yes, I will neuter him if he is staying in a cage with mom.

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#413778 - 11/09/07 06:15 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
When they start going downhill, they get very lethargic, their cry becomes more of a soft shush instead of a cry and they become dehydrated, usually... I hope this little guy makes it for you heart As for returning him to his parents once he's fully weaned, it can be done, but it takes the regular intro. process of side-by-side cages, pouch swapping, etc...
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#413852 - 11/09/07 09:10 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
Well, he pooped finally so I am happy! It was the right color and consistency. He's still eating good and I've set him up with a warm fleece pouch and a heating pad so I don't have to wear him all day long.
His cry has always been a soft shush...it almost sounds like a whisper or something. He did actually start making a little more of a cry last night.

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#413992 - 11/09/07 01:58 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
purplekat61
Unregistered


Be careful with the heating pad....it is best if you have a few layers of a towel on it so it doesn't burn the baby. Also, read suz's page on making an incubator. Believe me whe I say it is the best way to go! It simple and inexpensive. The humidity and warmth it produces is good for the joey. Best of luck to you! Any other questions or concerns...we are all here for you!

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#414016 - 11/09/07 02:36 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: ]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Wiggles got burned on his heating pad when he was little frown

I have a snuggle safe (animal) heating pad in my kit, it gets warm, and stays warm for up to 12 hours! but doesn't get hot enough to cause burns as long as you follow the directions. It also has a fleece cover, but, you can get little stuffed animal covers for it too smile
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#414117 - 11/09/07 03:56 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: BeckiT]
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
Thanks guys. The pouch I am using is double layer fleece and I am keeping the pad on low so it is just barely adding warmth to the inside. I have an incubator type system for home, but he is having to go work with me right now and this is much easier to transport.
How often should he be pooping? He went once last night and earlier there was a little smear on the qtip, but not a full blown [censored]. He looks liek he might be just a little dehydrated. His skin isn't really shrivelled, but if you move it, it doesn't spring back into place right away, so I don't know if that is having an effect on his bowels. He's peed really good several times today.

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#414561 - 11/10/07 09:47 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
It sounds like he is getting a bit dehydrated. Are you using Pedialyte or Liquilyte to make up his formula? If not, then you want to start doing so. If so, then you may want to alternate feedings with plain Pedialyte for a day or so to get his hydration back up. So, feed formula one feeding, plain Pedialyte the next, etc.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#414567 - 11/10/07 10:27 AM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
He pooed for me several times last night. My new question...I've read about making sure you don't over fill their stomaches...and that if they aren't warm, they can't digest thier food. His stomach is looking pretty full...it's not quite as big as a dime and not quite perfectly round...but it's been that way since about 1:30 this morning. He's pooped twice since then, and I've been keeping him in my bra again to make sure he's warm. Is there something else going on that I need to take care of? I am hoping to meet up with Anita sometime today.

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#414616 - 11/10/07 12:08 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
pixiedust Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Broken Arrow, OK
I guess maybe I am worryingfor nothign aboutteh stomache. I am afraid of overfeeding him, but sitting here stroking him, I realize he's not as dehydrated as yesterday. And he is still eating a a a little bit every couple hours. I guess it's a good thing his tummy is not completely emptying. Must mean I am doing things right.
Thanks to everyone who is helping me through this!

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#414633 - 11/10/07 12:50 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: pixiedust]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
From what I can remember of Suz's demo at SGGA, they can't overeat, they'll stop when they're full wink
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#414673 - 11/10/07 02:01 PM Re: Should I pull my Joey? [Re: BeckiT]
Megr
Unregistered


I am also hand raising 2 joey's that I sadly had to remove from mommy. I have been doing this since 10/27 and it has been going well. From what I have seen they will stop eating when they are full and I have also gotten the formula in their nose several times and they have just blown it out so you should be fine smile I have to take them both to work with me and I put them in a sleeping pouch and then in a ponding pouch and I wrap them in fleece also. I get the heating pad set it on low and put my jacket around it so they have several layers between them. I would for sure go to suz's site on hand raising joey's and print it off or put it as a favorite. I have used the information everyday wink I also have been coming here for help and have received amazing support. smile I just had an issue with eye infections and am having a little trouble but have received awesome support! We are all here for you so please do not hesitate to ask anything hug2

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