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#416885 - 11/14/07 08:46 AM Giardia questions...
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
My little girl Maia (almost 16 weeks OOP) was just diagnosed with Giardia. For safety sake we are treating everyone, so my questions for those who have had to deal with this or might know:

1) They are on Metronidazole and hate it. I've tried mixing it with gliderade, ensure and both together. Any other suggestions? It's like pulling teeth (and I swear two of them are holding their breath as well roflmao ) getting them to take it and all of them are very angry at me.

2) Is there a way to test food sources for Giardia? My vet is out of the office today so I couldn't ask her. I just don't want to continually be giving it to them.

3) Any ideas on how best to clean/disinfect the rept covers, since you can't bleach them or wash them in really hot water?

Ok, back to cleaning. Thanks everybody! wave
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#416929 - 11/14/07 10:37 AM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: sugarlope]
krispifsu
Unregistered


For the metro, I found this was the easiest for me to adminster meds and make sure all the meds were swallowed:

I took a fruit juice the gliders like and drew that up in the syringe first. Then draw up meds. The following of the juice takes away some of the awful taste of the metro.
I would wrap the gliders up and offer a treat (mealie).
With holding the glider, make sure you have control over their head so you have more control getting the meds in.
Once the glider was done with the treat, I would put the syringe in the side of the gliders mouth, far enough down that the meds will get in the throat, but not so far that you are choking the glider with the syringe.
Adminster the meds slowly and do not remove the syringe from the gliders mouth until the glider has swallowed all of the meds. This will ensure the glider does not spit the meds right back out
Then follow with lots of love and treats.

They are never going to like the meds - and more likely than not you will have to force the meds. Just try to make it as comfortable as possible for the glider.

With giardia - the points of contamination are so great, I'm not sure it would be worth it to test everything. The only thing I would consider testing is whatever water source you are using. I also took the precaution of dumping everything I had made and starting from scratch. Be sure to wash all fruits and veggies very well, keep water fresh, and santize dish/bottles on a regular basis.

I cannot help with the rep since I use cages that could be bleached out. For me - anything that I couldn't bleach, I tossed to minimized any chances of reinfection.

Good luck and HTH thumb


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#416958 - 11/14/07 11:31 AM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I have bleached repts with a diluted bleach solution/hot water, and would recommend it. Better by far than reinfection. Also disinfect EVERYTHING else, every couple days, all through treatment. That means toys, pouches, dishes, everything. Yes, some of your stuff will not look new anymore, but it will be safe and that's the important thing. You can actually boil your pouches in a pot on the stove to kill the giardia. And try pouring the boiling water over toys, dishes, and collapsed repts as well. I hope your babies get better soon. And they NEVER like the flagyl, lol. Krispifsu gave you some good advice there. Hold until they're ready to take a treat (I use a little piece of bread, cheese, yogurt drop, or bug)...once the treat is swallowed, you know the med is down.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#416962 - 11/14/07 11:40 AM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: Xfilefan]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Giardia normally comes from contaminated water, or fruits/veggies washed/irrigated in contaminated water (ie from mexico/south america, typically, but can be from anywhere potentially). Unless you inspect everything you get under a microscope before feeding, you won't find it. It will also spread animal to animal through fecal matter. Wash everything you get (fresh food wise) VERY well, and peel it all. Grapes are a big culprit, cut off not only the ends, but the center core all the way thru after cutting it in half (and wash/dry well of course). Some people will even peel their grapes also. Leafy greens can be contaminated as well, like spinach, but there really isn't anything besides washing and hoping you can do for those.
HTH
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#417013 - 11/14/07 01:57 PM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: Xfilefan]
morksmom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 1906
Loc: Texas
what are the symptoms of this?

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#417024 - 11/14/07 02:42 PM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: morksmom]
Bubblz
Unregistered


Giardia causes sever diarrhea and weight loss. Also giardia can be spread from species to species (that's right people can catch it as well as your other pets). It is usually caused by contaminated H20. Last summer my 150 lb dog got giardia ( from drinking out of my mother-in-laws koi pond)and the diarrhea storm oh my. Good luck with the meds.

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#417063 - 11/14/07 04:14 PM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: ]
luvsanimals
Unregistered


My gliders had giardia and were on Metronidazole and it did not work to treat them. They then put them on Fenbendazole (brand name Panacur)and it worked GREAT!! I have cleared the giardia and have not had issues. Also like they said above disinfect, disinfect, oh and disinfect!

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#417064 - 11/14/07 04:19 PM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I had Maia and Kira tested (since Maia has it and is sick and Kira is the only one she's had contact with). She was in quarantine before then and hasn't been around any of them since. Maia tested positive and Kira tested negative.

Just so everyone knows, Maia doesn't have any diarrhea; she stopped eating very much and got dehydrated (even though I was forcing liquid on her over the weekend when I knew something was wrong). She began losing weight (a gram a day starting the 9th) and got less and less active from there. So don't count on diarrhea to tell you something is wrong. And for anyone who doesn't have a scale, I highly recommend them. Weight loss is a very clear first sign of trouble; Maia didn't act any differently until the eve of the 11th, and then it was minor differences, but I knew with the weight loss there was a problem and I was forcing fluids until I could get her in so she never got to a crisis point.

I use purified water, always have, so I know it isn't that. And they are all eating the same things (exactly, since it was all mixed together and frozen in cubes). I got a new batch of vitamins (only thing I could think that had changed), which is what I was asking about testing, but looking back, it doesn't fit the timeline anyway.

Thank you Jen for letting me know about bleaching the repts (off to rewash them now) I had washed them in hot water, but was afraid they'd fall apart with bleach added. I have already bleached everything else (toys, pouches, cage frame, etc.) It was the covers I was worried about.

As for the meds - they hated it so much, that 2 of them literally sat there with fluid in their mouth until they couldn't breath and coughed it out, just ridiculous (that was the comment about holding their breath).

I finally figured out to mix gliderade powder with Strawberry Ensure (it's sweeter than some of the others) and they are all taking it like little champs (for now at least). But still takes me an hour to dose since I have to do all of the mixing and hand washing and....fun times!

Thank you soooo much for all of the help. In 6 years, I've never had to deal with this (all good things must come to an end, I guess) and was a little frazzled. I really think the other 5 are probably fine, but I am paranoid, and the last thing I need is for them to be passing it around.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#417069 - 11/14/07 04:28 PM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: sugarlope]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
They don't always present with diarrhea...and it can even be green with giardia. The metro should work if the course is long enough. I'd recommend 14 to 21 days on it. Most vets for some reason do not prescrbe long enough for a glider. dunno If you need any help, please don't hesitate to give me a call. hug2 435-640-9438 A little oatmeal might help slow the diarrhea down as well...no more than 3-4 flakes per day tho-you don't want to cause a blockage.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#417080 - 11/14/07 04:47 PM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: Xfilefan]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
She only gave me 10 days, I'll call her tomorrow. Like I said though, no diarrhea, I was just warning others that there could still be something really wrong even if diarrhea isn't present. Thanks Jen!
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#417269 - 11/14/07 10:42 PM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: sugarlope]
schlep
Unregistered


Just for another point of view:
One of the more common presentations for Giardia is nothing at all. No signs or symptoms. A close runner-up is an unthrifty pet with poor weight gain but not overtly sick. We all focus on the sick appearing animal with diarrhea or signs like sepsis, but most are less exciting and pretty normal appearing.

If one rounds up a crowd of Kindergarteners or day care kids, several will test positive. It is always with us. If you ever swim or ski in a river or lake or pond, you are likely seeing it without knowing it. We most definitely come in contact with it regularly.

Well water, fruits and veggies, and other critters are the most likely contacts. You can't test and eliminate all possible sources. And not every Giardia-positive pet will become ill. Those that act ill we test and when we find it we treat, even if it wasn't the Giardia that caused the signs that led to the testing.


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#417326 - 11/15/07 12:33 AM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Many times, a glider can be healthy and also be a carrier of giardia which is dormant. Then for whatever reason (usually stress induced)... the parasite becomes active.

Best method of treatment for Giardia is to administer the med for 7 days. Then 7 days off. Then repeat for a total of 3 Rounds of meds. Reason behind this method is to kill newly hatched parasites that were left behind after round one and two of meds.

1/2 cup of Bleach mixed in 1 gal of hot water and wash everything down and rinse well. pouches... wash in hot water and then dry in the dryer. Hot Heat from the dryer will also kill the parasite.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#417339 - 11/15/07 01:09 AM Re: Giardia questions... [Re: Judie]
FuzzButt
Unregistered


We have several snakes and use Chlorhexidine to clean their cages. I was curious if this would be safe to clean glider cages also?? Has anyone here ever used it??

Thanks,
Kelly

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#417827 - 11/15/07 11:24 PM Giardia info...bad news [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
cry Just so everyone knows, I have talked to a friend of mine that works at a zoo and after talking to their vets there is bad news all around. If your glider has ever had Giardia, they are carriers, period. They shed the cysts and are contagious to you and any other animals in your household even if they are not sick. During times of stress of lowered immune system they may show symptoms again and the Giardia symptoms will potentially reoccur throughout their lives as they will always have it.

(By recommendation of the vets:) The gliders should be maintained in a quarantine environment, meaning their things and surrounding area should be bleached every week and you should have 'glider clothes' that you wear with them and take off when you put them away and bleach. Reptiles they mentioned, in particular, should not even be housed in the same room.

If you have a lowered immune system, it is more likely that you will get Giardia and you need to be careful and take precautions to guard against it as it is very contagious. They also recommended a straight 30 cycle of treatment. The on/off again is more likely to make them resistent to treatment.

I am very upset, and I am sorry to bring such bad/drastic sounding news to the community, but the vets were very specific and certain, so I thought it needed to be shared.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#417893 - 11/16/07 04:41 AM Re: Giardia info...bad news [Re: sugarlope]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I didn't know about the carrying, but I have noticed the on/off treatment with gliders just doesn't seem to work-it comes back and they're always sicker, if it even goes away in the first place. Thanks for the information-good or bad, it's always a good thing to know what you're dealing with so you can be prepared, and so when another comes along you know how to help-don't ever apologize for information. hug2
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#417911 - 11/16/07 06:16 AM Re: Giardia info...bad news [Re: Xfilefan]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I agree with Jen. Thanks for the information. It's very good to know exactly what we're dealing with when it comes to our gliders. I'm sorry you're having to go through this, but thanks for sharing the knowledge you're gaining. hug2
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#418439 - 11/17/07 01:36 AM Re: Giardia info...bad news [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Gliders are no forever carriers of it and neither are people. You have either misunderstood, or your friend has. This is where the misunderstanding could have taken place. A parasite lays in the upper intestine like a little shell around it. As Judie said, once under stress, it breaks out and symptoms occur. You can have it deep in the intestine for 6 months and not exhibit symptoms until stressed. You can get rid of it forever. My neice came over from India and had it until she was 14 months. Once treated two rounds, she has never had it again and she is 9 now. I think what you friend was meaning was that it can reoccur, but once it is taken care of, it won't reappear.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#418442 - 11/17/07 01:52 AM Re: Giardia info...bad news [Re: Sheila]
Squeaky
Unregistered


In some animals, if you get it treated early on, you can get rid of it, but if you wait too long it can become permanent. We had a cat that was a stay and he had giardia from the time we got him to the day he died (a few years later) because as a stray he obviously had no vet care.

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#418605 - 11/17/07 01:04 PM Re: Giardia info...bad news [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Your cat being a stray could have had a weakened immune system and could have been exposed to it ongoing in its life. It is my understanding in humans that some patients recover from their giardiasis, with or without treatment, but symptoms continue, perhaps because there has been bacterial overgrowth within the small intestine. The symptoms continue, but this does not mean the parasite is present. Occasionally, treatment fails to eradicate Giardia. In such cases, the drug may be changed or a longer duration or higher dose may be used. Combination therapy also may be effective. I know when my neice had it, a combination of drugs were used. Many cases in humans are not treated right away because they think they may have a virus. In most cases the ugly bug does not show symptoms until 7 days after it has been exposed. Here is an interesting article about the bug in cats and dogs. Giardia
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#418621 - 11/17/07 01:48 PM Re: Giardia info... [Re: Sheila]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Sheila, thank you for responding, I was not trying to start a panic or anything, I was upset and frustrated and
just trying to pass on the information that I received from the zoo vets (and probably should have waited until I was less upset, but it is what it is). But they said that they will shed cysts for the rest of thier life, this is why I got upset.

Someone did commented to me that most zoo vets are over-paranoid about any kind of transmissable infection/parasite/anything and this may be why they said what they did. I've been reading a lot online since and everything I have found says that people get rid of it also.

I am still using quarantine procedures for their room right now because I do have a cat and a dog that are both immune suppressed right now and even my vet agreed that this would be the best thing until treatment is completed.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#418630 - 11/17/07 02:23 PM Re: Giardia info... [Re: sugarlope]
MelissaM07
Unregistered


My lone glider, Sugar, was recently diagnosed with the parasite Giardia as well. She was given the metro for ten days. What really upsets me is that I was never even told I would need to bleach all her things, do extensive cage cleaning, ect. by the vet. I don't understand why the vet didn't feel it was important to tell me this- it may seem like a commonsense thing to some, but I really had no idea how contagious is was until coming to this site and doing the research myself!

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#418656 - 11/17/07 03:14 PM Re: Giardia info... [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
MelissaM07, sorry you are dealing with this too. My vet originally told me just to make sure I kept everything super clean through treatment. I am bleaching to be absolutely sure it isn't carried out to the other animals as well.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#418689 - 11/17/07 04:37 PM Re: Giardia info... [Re: sugarlope]
Msdoolittle Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 582
Loc: Lake Worth, FL
I hope your gliders are feeling better!

Do gliders with giardia have yellowish stools? I do parasite testing on people. We place bets when we see a yellowish sample that the patient has giardia. I was just wondering if this was true of gliders.

_________________________
~Janet~
Mom to 2 daughters (Laura & Kayla)
4 suggies (Scooter & Snickers, Coral,& Portia)
3 birds (Prince,Lucy,Sidney)
1 dog (Sammy)


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#418702 - 11/17/07 05:16 PM Re: Giardia info... [Re: Msdoolittle]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Kind of off_topic , but not at the same time--Janet...In the almost 5 years I've been on GC (and a glider owner), I have most often heard of green or 'bright' green diarrhea being associated with Giardia in gliders, but not yellow so far, unless that has simply not been reported, and that's IF there are fecal symptoms at all. That could be due to differences between people/gliders in diet, normal gut flora/metabolism, or both-or something else for all I know. I know that frequently yellow in stools in people is caused by a high bile or bilirubin content in the stool (apart from Giardia), and some of that is because most people eat a certain percent of meat (not sure if vegetarians differ?) and how our food is processed by our body...and gliders do process differently and have different 'normal' gut flora (or normal helpful bacteria in the intestinal tract). This is a really good question for Schlep (he's a pediatrician). I sort of mentioned the green in an earlier post in this thread (I think-I'm SO tired right now I'm not thinking too well)...but I haven't heard of yellow as far as gliders. dunno
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#418706 - 11/17/07 05:27 PM Re: Giardia info... [Re: Xfilefan]
Msdoolittle Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 582
Loc: Lake Worth, FL
Thanks for the info. I was just wondering if we could use color as a sign that a glider could have giardia. They just seem to hide their illnesses so well.
_________________________
~Janet~
Mom to 2 daughters (Laura & Kayla)
4 suggies (Scooter & Snickers, Coral,& Portia)
3 birds (Prince,Lucy,Sidney)
1 dog (Sammy)


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#419577 - 11/18/07 11:45 PM Re: Giardia info... [Re: Msdoolittle]
schlep
Unregistered


Stool color is a factor of many things. Unfortunately it isn't as easy as a specific color means a certain cause.

Rapid transit of eaten material through the gut (diarrhea) can make stools green from bile acids not being acted upon and getting the time to make the poop brown.

Liver disease that blocks bile salts from entering the gut can make stool pale (acholic).


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#419677 - 11/19/07 08:10 AM Re: Giardia info... [Re: ]
krispifsu
Unregistered


My vet has mentioned to me that a golden colored stool can be a strong indication that giardia is present.

My female that was most overriden with giardia presented signs of vomiting, loss of appetite, weight loss, and golden colored stools.

When two of my other males also starting having diahrrea - it was a light brown progressing to a yellowy stool as well.



Edited by krispifsu (11/19/07 08:11 AM)

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#419711 - 11/19/07 09:31 AM Re: Giardia info... [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
A more common way of passing it from one glider to another is through eating the fecas of one another. It can pass by getting on hands, but normally it is internal. Unless you are touching the poop or the actual parasite, I don't think it will jump on you, but will crawl. It is microscopic. I believe it dies after 24-48 hours and you can have another outbreak if one is up in the intestine and stress usually breaks them out, but it is not that hard to get rid of so please don't worry too much. I am sorry for your glider too. I had one glider that had it that came from a large breeder. He was treated and is now 5 years old and never had another outbreak.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#420192 - 11/19/07 11:00 PM Re: Giardia info... [Re: Sheila]
saturngirl Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 2448
Loc: Columbia, SC
My female suggie Sophie came down with giardia from stress. When I picked her up to bring her home she was very unhappy. Her poopy turned a golden yellow color and was very runny a few days after I got her and I took her to the vet and it was giardia. Just remember to wash your hands after handling the infected glider. This is very contagious to other gliders, people and other animals. My vet told me the biggest way to pass it was coming in contact the the feces of the infected animal. Disinfect all the toys and cage a couple times a week.
Good luck and keep us updated on how your baby is doing.
_________________________
*~*Tara*~*
5~suggies "mini" Cooper & Sophie
Paisley, Maci & Smurf
2 ~cats Kia and Gabby~
1 ~silly puppy Darci~

Rest in Peace Chili Pepper dog...you will always have a special place in my heart





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#420271 - 11/20/07 01:21 AM Update... [Re: saturngirl]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Just wanted everyone to know that all of the gliders are still taking the meds really well and Maia has finally started to gain some weight back. They are getting so used to the regimen (and they like their meds so much now) that some of them pop out of their pouch as soon as they hear the door, so I guess once this is over, I will have to figure out something else to give to them. roflmao

I just wanted to reiterate, if I didn't say it well before; Thank you so much to everyone who has given me information, offered help and support and comforting words. When it all started, there was a lot of info being thrown at me and some of it was very disconcerting (as you know) and I thank you all for talking it through for the good of everyone on the board. I still have many more days ahead of treating and bleaching but it doesn't seem as daunting now that I am more convinced there will be an end to it. Anyway (ramble, ramble) thanks. thanks
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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