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#422677 - 11/25/07 01:14 AM Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa
JrGliders
Unregistered


Just curious how many have paired an Albino and Leucistic glider and what the results were.

I was wondering what the aa Leu and aa Albino would result in...

Have there been any other breedings of two recessive parents besides Albino/Albino, Leu/Leu, etc?

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#422684 - 11/25/07 01:45 AM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Owndbymyfurballs Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 883
Loc: Kansas
Wouldn't the joeys just be a normal colored joey that carries those genes? I thought to produce an albino or a leu that the joey must get the gene from both parents. Which would mean that pairing albino and leu together could only produce normal colored joeys?
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#422690 - 11/25/07 02:20 AM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: Owndbymyfurballs]
lanie
Unregistered


I would think so as well espically if the genes are recesive like those that you are mentioning instead of Dominant traits. but then again you never know.

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#422693 - 11/25/07 03:12 AM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
A Leu x Albino pairing would produce 100% hets for Leu/ Albino. Thus the offspring would be grey in coloration.

100% Leu/Albino Het Offspring x Albino or Leu the next generation would be Albino or Leu or 100% hets for Leu/Albino.
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#422805 - 11/25/07 12:10 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: Judie]
Leyna
Unregistered


Judie, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If you pair and Albino and Leu, there is no possible way for them to produce a gray baby. That's simply because neither parent has the gray gene and if they don't have the gene, then they can't pass it on... Albino in leu are both recessive. In order for a glider to display the leu or albino coloring, it can not have the gray gene at all. If it had the gray gene, it would be gray glider. Pairing an albino to a leu would be geneticly similar to pairing 2 leus. Actually, I even think you would produce all leus because albino is usually the most recessive color in animals. So you would have Leucistic 100% Albino Hets.

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#422816 - 11/25/07 12:46 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Hmmmm. Since I do not breed albinos.... now I am lost. roflmao

To produce a leu... it takes a gene copy from each parent to produce white as the leu only has one copy for that variation to pass on. Same with the Albino.

So, pairing each together.... there would only be one copy of the leu and one copy of the albino being passed to the offspring. Gray variation then would be expressed as the Albino and Leu still carry the gray color gene.

I thought Stacie did a breeding as discribed above and the result was a gray het?
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#422946 - 11/25/07 04:32 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: Judie]
Leyna
Unregistered


Stacie breed 2 100% hets together. The babies produced were normal... I'm saying, if you were to breed a leu to an albino, not hets for leu and albino... Neither leu or albino colored gliders carry the gray gene.

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#422960 - 11/25/07 04:49 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
OwensMama
Unregistered


Seeing as I am new to the glider community and do not know what all of the colors represent. But if you have an albino animal which is the result of two parents that were either albino or were dominant for instance gray & carried a recessive gene for albino example you could get:

Gg X Gg (dominant gray w/recessive albino)you could get

GG, Gg,Gg, gg are the 4 possible outcomes or your chances of getting an albino offspring are 25% & getting gray 75%.

I know it is a basic genetic demonstration but it might help..

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#422961 - 11/25/07 04:51 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
I was once told that one of the colors (not sure if it is leucistic or albino), was believed to have all the genetic information for a normal coloring. The gene was believed to act like more of a "block" to prevent color from coming through. If that were in fact the case, and the other glider didn't have the "block", gray would be able to come through despite both parents being white.

Personally, I have no idea what would happen. I have heard so many theories about pairing leucistic to albino. All we can do is speculate at this point.
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#422973 - 11/25/07 05:14 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: petsugargliders]
7glider7
Unregistered


This would depend on how the genes work...it would depend on if they are a "block" for the normal gray color, or if they code for an "absence" of color.

Albinism, by definition, codes for an "absence" of color. Most animals have melanin or color genes that produce melanin which gives them color. An albino, aa, lacks the color alleles to express these color proteins, so they are white (and have red eyes) because they completely lack the genes to produce pigment.

I'm not sure if leu works the same way. Obviously leus produce some pigment because they have black eyes. It's possible that what a leu gene does, if the animal is ll, is it masks the production of pigment in the coat. So, it might work differently than an albinism gene.

If leu and albino basically work the same way on the same gene, crossing them would probably create a white baby (although I'm not sure if it would be a leu or an albino...as stated previously, albino is the more recessive of the two presumably, so probably a leu).

If leu and albinism work in different ways (one color created by an absence of pigment and one due to blocking), then perhaps you could end up with a gray baby this way.

This post probably made it more confusing! Sorry roflmao


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#423075 - 11/25/07 07:46 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
OwensMama
Unregistered


Yes that is true. It also could be a combination of genes as well. Like you said one could "block" another. In humans we have many genes that work together to create the color of our eyes. It really just depends on how their DNA works:) It can get really complicated the more genes that are involved. I enjoyed genetics class smile lol

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#428770 - 12/05/07 09:13 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
JrGliders
Unregistered


So *nobody* at all has paired a Leucistic with and Albino? I had honestly wondered if that was where Creaminos started....

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#428801 - 12/05/07 10:18 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
GizmosGal
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: JrGliders
So *nobody* at all has paired a Leucistic with and Albino? I had honestly wondered if that was where Creaminos started....


Nope Creaminos started with 2 normal grays. Susan at FFR did not even have any leucistics or albinos.

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#428860 - 12/06/07 12:10 AM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
JrGliders
Unregistered


What a surprise - I think I would have pinched myself several times if that ever happened to me... A creamino baby out of Grey parents... So strange!

There are *so* many mutations that seem to have happened in the not so distant past. Genetics are amazing.

Hubby and I were tossing around that aa+aa cculd not ever equal Aa or AA... and a Leu and Albino could not produce a Leu or Albino aa offspring either because one parent would not carry the opposite gene... I am so curious to see the result.

As for the Creamino, only one was produced as a wild mutation right? So all Creaminos are from that line? Has Creamino been proven to be recessive that is carried in a het? What other known recessive traits are out there?

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#428864 - 12/06/07 12:18 AM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Leyna
Unregistered


Creminos are standard recessive. A pair of regular albino hets have since produce a cremino, so as of now, there are 2 lines.

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#428865 - 12/06/07 12:22 AM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
PeeperKeeper
Unregistered


Okay, I'm not a breeder and I don't know all the subtleties of glider color genetics, but I heard something from my vet today that really surprised me and also makes me wonder about how sure anyone could be about how genes decide color.

She said that the first cat cloned was a different color from its clone. I forgot what the colors were, but apparently the color was not just determined by the genes, since the clones obviously had the same genes, but were different colors. I suppose that means hormones while in utero may have had an effect.

Someone may want to check the facts, but she is a vet and is generally a very reliable source of information. She brought the subject up herself in a talk she was giving to a group, so I would assume she was pretty sure of her facts. I think she said the cats' names were something like Carbon and Copy. Now that I think of it, I guess Carbon was black and I think she said the clone was calico.

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#428878 - 12/06/07 12:58 AM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Leyna
Unregistered


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0214_021402copycat.html

Here's an article about the cloned cat. From what I read, both cats were tortis, but their coat patterns were different...

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#428944 - 12/06/07 09:55 AM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
stephiy
Unregistered


The color of the cats was the same, which is tortoiseshell. It was the pattern that was different, which in cats can be affected by other factors such as temperature variations in the womb.
Just because something is seen in one species doesn't mean it translates to other species.
Especially with gliders since the joeys aren't in a womb when the haircoat is developing.

But when you think about it, glider patterns are different from one glider to another. If you look at two gray gliders, their markings won't be exactly the same even though they're still both gray gliders. Of course, who knows what would happen with a cloned glider though dunno .

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#429000 - 12/06/07 12:31 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
Could anyone please post the genotypes for both Leucistic and Albino?
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#429143 - 12/06/07 05:50 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: Bubbles8i8]
Leyna
Unregistered


The genotypes for gliders is unknown. Very little genetic research has been done into gliders and their colors. Most of what we know is from years of breeding and trial and error.

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#429368 - 12/06/07 10:39 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This gen∑o∑type (jěn'ə-tīp', jē'nə-) Pronunciation Key
n.
1)The genetic makeup, as distinguished from the physical appearance, of an organism or a group of organisms.
2)The combination of alleles located on homologous chromosomes that determines a specific characteristic or trait.

I was just wanting to know the genetic symbols used for Leucistic and Albino genes.

smile
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#429375 - 12/06/07 10:51 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: Bubbles8i8]
JrGliders
Unregistered


Hey Jenny - I don't think are any specific symbols being used right now, just the normal Aa aa AA which only really represents Dom/Rec Rec/Rec Rec/Dom, respectively.

Would be nice to grab one of those genetic engineers out of Research Triangle Park and make them figure it out... next time I have a fender bender on my way to work I think I will negotiate an arrangement laugh

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#429381 - 12/06/07 10:59 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
Like with mice, A is agouti, or the "wild" color.

Aa shows an agouti mouse
AA shows an agouti mouse
aa is non-agouti (such as black)


what is the phenotype for the following in gliders?

Aa
AA
aa



Thanx! laugh
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Jenny tounge

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#429854 - 12/07/07 04:56 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: Bubbles8i8]
Dazzle Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 303
Loc: Near Chicago
I don't think they have gotten that far in gliders, Jenny. Rats and mice have been studied on for years and years where gliders are still relatively new in comparison.

Leucism per Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucism

Notice a reduction of pigment -- not a total absence of those cells.

The albinism article per Wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism

Basically a Leu has chromatophore defects whereas Albinos lack production of melanin. Two different 'issues' when creating pigment. A leu has defected cells from cell differentation or migration from the neural crest, but still has them. An albino lacks melanin pigment cells.

Unless the parents are Leu (het albino) x Albino (het leu) I would assume if a Leu was bred to an Albino that the joey(s) would be grey or normal "default" colored glider(s). But now they joeys carry both genes.


Edited by sugarlope (12/07/07 07:46 PM)
Edit Reason: removed quoted text~Gretchen

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#429865 - 12/07/07 05:19 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Dazzle Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 303
Loc: Near Chicago
Originally Posted By: Leyna
Judie, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If you pair and Albino and Leu, there is no possible way for them to produce a gray baby. That's simply because neither parent has the gray gene and if they don't have the gene, then they can't pass it on... Albino in leu are both recessive.



Exactly. They are both recessives, not dominant genes. But they are not the same gene, either. Which is why they would not be compatible. When genes are not compatible they spit out the default.

Most animals have a default color. In gliders it is 'grey'. All varieties have this basic color in their genes. If you have a mutation or variation pop up, and breed to another glider that is not the same mutation or variation and is not a carrier of the variation, you will get the default.

Leu's (and Albinos) produce default color (in this case, grey) all the time unless paired with a compatible mate which would be another leu (or albino), or het.

So unless the Leu was het for Albino and the Albino het for Leu, I would thin they would be the default color.
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#429950 - 12/07/07 07:37 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: Dazzle]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
nevermind


Edited by Guerita135 (12/07/07 08:10 PM)
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#429970 - 12/07/07 08:05 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: Guerita135]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
It would really depend on which loci the genes are on, as to whether they would work together.

Another example, I know its not the same, but, with mice, the albino gene (c/c) works in correlation with Siamese (c^h/c^h) and Himalayan (c^h/c). But that is on the same locus. If you breed a Siamese with an albino, you will get all Himalayan babies. If you breed a Himalayan with an albino, you get half albino babies and half Himalayan babies. If you breed a Himalayan with a Siamese you get 1/3 Siamese, 1/3 Himalayan and 1/3 albino.

I doubt that the genes for Leucistic and albino are on the same locus, so it would be pretty safe to assume you'd get normal greys that carry both Leu and albino when breed two together.

Also, to address what Leyna said at the beginning of the thread (I just re-read it), all gliders, regardless of their color, have the "grey gene" underneath. Leucistic and albino are "dilutions" which just "block," as Jennifer said, the grey color.

Do any of you know if there are any labs currently studying sugar gliders? Who would I contact in Australia if I wanted to find out more information?

Thanx

smile
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Jenny tounge

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#429989 - 12/07/07 08:39 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: Bubbles8i8]
7glider7
Unregistered


Albinism is not a "block" of color, Bubbles. It's an absence of colors...a lack of melanin.

A lack of color can occur for different reasons. It's not quite as simple as just a "block."

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#430029 - 12/07/07 09:39 PM Re: Breeding question on Albino/Leucistic aa+aa [Re: ]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
I understand that is what occurs. smile But the albino gene, in relation to the grey gene, acts as a "block." The phenotype shows as an abscence of color, yes.
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