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#429796 - 12/07/07 03:33 PM Adding calcium
susan0312
Unregistered


As I have previously mentioned, I feed Darcy's diet and have been very successful thus far. These are my questions, though:

1) As mentioned- too much of anything is bad- what are signs of long-term excessive vitamin intake?

2) How do I add calcium only- where do I buy it and how much?

3) If I buy Ensure with added Calcium- do I still need to add calcium?

4) Which is better- Ensure with high protein or added calcium?

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#429805 - 12/07/07 03:47 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


The only way to REALLY tell if your glider has long term affects from too much vitamins would be a from looking at the liver and kidneys. Vitamins can do a lot of damage in those areas, but i have no idea how a vet actually checks that part of the body out.

You can add calcium in many ways. You can do it the natural way, or the vitamin powder way. Both are concidered safe. I try to do it naturally. Some fruits (like papaya) and veggies (like spinach) are VERY high and calcium and are good to add to their diets. I feed papaya often because its their favorites. You can also buy rep-cal vitamins which is a dusting powder they use for reptiles. My suggues will not eat ANYTHING that has touched that stuff though, theyre picky.

All of the diets here are complete diets, so you should not NEED to add or alter anything in them so long as you follow an APPROVED diet the way it says to.

I am NOT familiar with Darcy's diet, so i cant help you out more.. HTH

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#429972 - 12/07/07 08:06 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: ]
TammyH
Unregistered


I have a liquid calcium supplement called Neo-calglucon#5 that my vet gave me.


Edited by sugarlope (12/07/07 11:13 PM)
Edit Reason: removed dosage~Gretchen

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#430089 - 12/07/07 11:58 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


honestly, i have no clue what that is.. I would make a new post and name it with the name of the stuff you have.

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#430098 - 12/08/07 12:13 AM Re: Adding calcium [Re: ]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
The Darcy diet recommends using Lite or Regular Ensure (any flavor except chocolate) and adding 3/8 tsp of calcium carbonate per can. You can buy calcium carbonate as Glider-Cal at www.exoticnutrition.com , Rep-Cal WITHOUT D3 at www.sugar-glider.com , or calcium carbonate powder from www.glidersanonymous.com .

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#430110 - 12/08/07 12:43 AM Re: Adding calcium [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
One brief reminder (please do not take offense, but I always feel that it should be mentioned in these threads for those that are not aware...) Darcy's diet was formulated for a glider that was not maintaining weight and was very sick (cancer). People started feeding it to healthy gliders, but it was never meant for them and the glider that the diet was originally formulated for is no longer on it now that he is in remission and maintaining a healthy weight and demeanor. Ok, off the soapbox...

Listed on the info page of Darcy's diet (where you got your instructions) should be listed an amount of powdered calcium supplement to be added to the Ensure before feeding it (Rep-Cal, Jurassi-Cal, any powdered calcium supplement like that can usually be found at a pet store). I cannot remember off the top of my head what that amount is, but if you go back and look on the info page, it should be listed there. Do not use neocalglucon as a replacement for the powdered calcium you add to Ensure because (and I am going to say this wrong, but I hope you understand what I mean) the amount of available calcium will be different for equal amounts of neocalglucon and a powdered form of calcium and you may overdose calcium with neocalglucon in the same amounts. (Did that even make a little bit of sense? dunno ) You should not be using any other vitamins with Darcy's diet, as the Ensure is chock full of vitamins as it is.

(Side note:) Only use neocalglucon under a vet's supervision, as too much calcium is just as bad as too little and adding the extra calcium this way may alter the balance that you are feeding (as most diets have calcium added to them). You have no way of knowing how much you are throwing off the balance by feeding neocalglucon on a daily basis, which is why neocalglucon is usually only used in the cases of calcium deficiency and generally only for a period of time, not on a permanent basis.

There have been discussions about the high protein and high calcium Ensures and I do not remember everything absolutely, but I would not buy the Ensure with added calcium as you are adding calcium to it for the gliders and you will not know how much cal to add if it already has cal added to it by the manufacturer (and what was added by the manufacturer is not enough to make up for what you add to the original formula. Since Darcy's diet was based on the original formula of Ensure, I'd stick to the original, basically.

Anyway, hope some of that made sense and hope it helps.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#430726 - 12/09/07 12:21 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: sugarlope]
GangstersMom Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 1157
Loc: Orlando, FL
I remember reading a LONG thread awhile back where Donna Fritz was involved in the thread herself. I will try to look for it. But If memory serves me, I think she said that if you feed Ensure w/ calcium, you don't have to add any. Let me go look for it to be sure. I will be back!
_________________________
heart~*~Brandy~*~heart


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#430736 - 12/09/07 12:46 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: GangstersMom]
GangstersMom Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 1157
Loc: Orlando, FL
Okay, Cant find it! Does anyone elseknow of the thread I am talking about? I think it is archived, and reads Ensure diet or something to that effect. It was super long, and I think an experiment was involved??
_________________________
heart~*~Brandy~*~heart


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#430806 - 12/09/07 02:36 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: GangstersMom]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Here's a good thread on Darcy's diet wink a little ways down the page there's a suggestion to alter the amount of calcium, but not to eliminate it wink
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#430813 - 12/09/07 02:42 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: BeckiT]
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4801
Loc: SE Minnesota..
Not to cause an issue by why feed a healthy glider a diet created for a sick glider who is healthy now and not on it anymore? Just asking, not bashing! wink
_________________________
Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:


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#430827 - 12/09/07 03:03 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: GliderLove]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Lord Darcy does still get his diet, just a modified "maintenance" version of it according to one of the older threads wink
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#430834 - 12/09/07 03:13 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: BeckiT]
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4801
Loc: SE Minnesota..
Well yeah, a "modified" version, but I just wondered why healthy gliders were put on it?
_________________________
Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:


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#430885 - 12/09/07 05:04 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: GliderLove]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
I asked someone a few months ago about the difference between the Ensure (plain) and the Ensure High Calcium, and the Ensure High Protein.

The reason why is is NOT recommended to give the High Calcium and the High Protein is because of the total amount of the high amount of sodium.
Regular Ensure = 200mg of Sodium
High Protein and Calcium = 290mg of Sodium

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#430910 - 12/09/07 05:43 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: BeckiT]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: BeckiT
Lord Darcy does still get his diet, just a modified "maintenance" version of it according to one of the older threads wink


Just so everyone knows, Darcy is no longer fed 'the sick diet' actually. He has been switched over to the regular diet that all of her others are on.
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#430935 - 12/09/07 06:19 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: sugarlope]
susan0312
Unregistered


I sm glad that this discussion has come up (probably again) and I would like to thank everyone.

I was very inexperienced when I first started with my gliders a little more than a year ago. I asked for help and was told to choose a diet from a list- without knowing the background- and I chose Darcy's diet. They have been on it for more than six months.

At this time- they are playful, happy creatures with beautiful coats. They have been wonderful parents to 2 sets of joeys. They are a healthy weight (as per the vet) and they love their food.

In addition to the small amount of ensure, they get chicken or egss- which they love and a variety of fruits and veggies every night. Oh- of course mealies and yogies and the occasional pine nuts.

Thus far, nobody has given me a compelling reason to change their diet. I understand that this diet had a specific purpose, but if it is working for me, why should I change.
This is not a rhetorical question, if I am doing harm to my pets, I want to know.

Thanks again to everyone for your continued help. mlove

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#430996 - 12/09/07 07:59 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: ]
stephiy
Unregistered


Gretchen, could you please share where you got your info?

My understanding of the Darcy's diet has always been, that the diet was NOT created for a sick glider. There was a sick glider, Lord Darcy, who had cancer and was not doing well. On the advice of her vet, Lord Darcy’s owner (Donna Fritz) started giving him Ensure to help him keep his weight on and keep up his strength. After seeing how well Lord Darcy bounced back to health and how well he was doing on the Ensure, Donna realized that healthy gliders could benefit from Ensure too. So she got together with vets and nutritionists to create a healthy, well-balanced diet for all gliders that would be based on the Ensure that Lord Darcy had been getting. And this is how and why the Darcy’s diet was created.

And the last I'd seen Donna post, was that all her gliders were on the Darcy's diet.

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#431026 - 12/09/07 09:30 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: ]
GangstersMom Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 1157
Loc: Orlando, FL
Thank you Stephanie, that was my understanding as well. While my gliders are not currently on Darcy's I have been thinking about switching back to it. I have been doing alot of research on it. From reading I also found that Donna has worked side by side with vets to make this a mainstream "approved" diet. The main reason that poeple dont like Ensure is because of the high fat content, but from my reading it is suggested that weight be monitored and if they start getting chunky, to switch to Ensure Light.

Also, Susan, I think this is the info you were looking for

Quote:
The High Calcium Ensure has 400mg of cal compared to 300mg for the regular Ensure. Changes the amount of calcium you need to add by about 1/4 tea spoon.

_________________________
heart~*~Brandy~*~heart


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#431093 - 12/09/07 11:19 PM Re: Adding calcium [Re: sugarlope]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Originally Posted By: sugarlope
Originally Posted By: BeckiT
Lord Darcy does still get his diet, just a modified "maintenance" version of it according to one of the older threads wink


Just so everyone knows, Darcy is no longer fed 'the sick diet' actually. He has been switched over to the regular diet that all of her others are on.
Gretchen, was this a recent thing? I ask because according to this post
Originally Posted By: saharanfox
The original "sick glider" version of this diet was unlimited Ensure and unlimited protein (mostly bugs), to put and keep weight on my glider --Lord Darcy-- when he was diagnosed with Lymphoma back in 2002 (by an experienced zoo vet and confirmed by Cornell University.)
Darcy is now on the normal maintenance version outlined here, and he is thriving, as are all my gliders, including Darcy's three children


I also found this post from Feb 07 where she still says she's feeding the Ensure diet dunno
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#431117 - 12/10/07 12:01 AM Re: Adding calcium [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I have a glider that was diagnosed with cancer a while ago. I started writing Donna to get Darcy's full regimine to see if it would help her. It did. I found out in corresponding with her that Darcy is no longer on 'Darcy's diet' because he is in remission (which is absolutely wonderful news). But yeah, looking back over everything, you guys are right, it is the 'sick version' I guess that he is no longer on.

My concerns with Darcy's diet (for a long term feeding plan) stem only from my experiences and the complications I know of: When my kids were on it (yes they were on it for a while when I first started off in the glider world) a couple of them did get a little overweight, but their coats and personalities seemed to loose their luster. They weren't as active (even the healthy weight gliders). When I switched them to a different diet, they returned to 'normal' behaviors and appearances. I found this to be true again when I changed Kira and Dakota over for a year after she got cancer. Initially, there was an immense difference in Kira, but eventually she hit a plateau and seemed to go down (activity wise). They were switched over to a different diet and although she still gets some Ensure daily with her meds to help her maintain weight, she has done better not being on Ensure entirely. Maybe it is just something that some have experienced and some have not (entirely possible).

One of my concerns is that I have seen the posts of people taking the diet and running (as some have with other diets, like BML, and recently we have found that if you do not stick to the diet as it was researched, than it could cause problems long term). I have seen more than a few people adding extra vitamins (this is directed at no one specifically, so please do not take offense), cutting out proteins all together and over feeding the Ensure. I just feel (as with any diet) that though this sounds like an easy/quick plan, it does need to be well thought out, should be discussed with your vet and followed as it was recommended without all of the additions/subtractions/substitutions. She gives hers a wide variety of proteins which most people do not. But having experienced just the difference between feeding only mealworms and feeding live crickets, I can tell you there is a difference.

Obesity can be an issue, which has been well stated and understood and the light Ensure has been discussed as an option for resolving that, I have not heard from anyone either way if it does (from their personal experiences). My primary concern with Ensure as the main source of nutrition is with dehydration. If the glider becomes dehydrated (through illness, stress, etc. which does happen) the Ensure turns into almost a clay/sludge like substance in the GI tract and can cause severe problems to death. I am sure that I am overly sensitive about it and more aware of such concerns because I have cared for ill gliders, but it is still a concern.

-Nevermind- Suffice to say, I just think whenever this diet comes up people 'jump on the bandwagon' because it is easy to find/buy/fix and don't always look into the pros and cons, or again, feed as recommended. I also know that some of you do, and if it works for you...great! I still answered the questions relating to the diet and how to feed it as recommended. wave


Edited by sugarlope (12/10/07 12:43 AM)
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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