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#43067 - 04/11/05 11:15 PM Genetic Confused
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just read a posting in the Glider Ads. It was mentioned that it has not been proven that you can get a WFB from a pair of WFB hets?? But you can with WFB and a normal. I am confused here about the hets. If they both carry the gene why would they not produce a WFB?

KicksNJ

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#43068 - 04/11/05 11:25 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm the one that made the post you are talking about...

I want to start off by saying that not enough is known about glider genetics to know how their genetics actually work. What we do know for certain though is that a WFB paired with a normal will produce WFB's about 50-60% of the time. There are rumors that a breeder has produced WFB's from 2 WFB hets, but this has never actually been proven. What I was trying to tell the poster of the ad was that financailly, it's a better investment to buy a WF and a normal. First generation WF males will run you $400-$450 dollars and you will be more or less assured of producing a WF joey. WF hets cost you $200-$250 each and there is a chance that they may never produce WFB's. For almost the same amount of money you can have a guarentee to produce WF's verses a chance of producing WF's...

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#43069 - 04/11/05 11:37 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


WFB is a very tricky gene and although Leyna is very right we do not know enough about glider genetics to know for sure. It is not just like simple genetics like some may think. But best bet is to get a wfb and pair with a het for wfb.


Edited by KristopherDeRose (04/11/05 11:46 PM)

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#43070 - 04/11/05 11:40 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In my opinion a grey glider should never be called a WFB het until it has actually produced WFB offspring. Otherwise a breeder has no way to prove it's actually carrying any WFB genes. But that's just my opinion, I am not a color breeder and I have never owned any colors. I'm just interested in genetics.

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#43071 - 04/11/05 11:49 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


A gray glider when paired with a WFB will produce WFB's, so only a WFB het paired with a WFB het and then producing WFB's would be a true proven het...

Just thought I would point that out so people aren't try to claim normal grays are WF hets because they produced WFB's when paired with a WF.

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#43072 - 04/11/05 11:59 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, with the enormous difficulty in proving a grey is a WFB het then, could color breeders agree to stop using the term? I just don't want to see color newbies getting misled.

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#43073 - 04/12/05 12:03 AM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Perhaps they should be called "het potentials" instead...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#43074 - 04/12/05 12:08 AM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I personally am not going to sell any of my gliders as WF hets. Also, in my genealogies, I don't acknowledge hets. If they are true hets, then they will prove themselves via their off spring...

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#43075 - 04/12/05 12:56 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


hmmm. i have wfb hets and according to to and fro (which is a very knowledgeable breeder I guess, since she has so many colors)is that a het means any offspring that come from a wfb. any parent can be a wfb and the baby will carry the gene. now im just going by what to and fro is saying. just my 2 cents....

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#43076 - 04/12/05 01:03 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


some breeders do refer to hets as being possible hets, I tell people when they are buying from me that it is a possible even though I might of advertised as a het. When you buy a het there is no gauantee that s/he has the gene in him, that is why they are less expensive.


to and fro knows that just because you have 2 colored parents deosn't always mean that you are going to have a normal who carries the same gene.

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#43077 - 04/12/05 01:15 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


They should probably call them "normal greys from WFB breedings". It appears to me that WFB is what some call a co dominant genetic trait. What this means is that when you breed a WFB to a normal, statistically 50% of the offspring will be WFB and the other 50% will be normal greys. These normal grey gliders do not carry the WFB trait, and should probably not be called "hets", since the term het implies that the animal is carrying the trait, and that when bred to another "het" will produce (again, statistically) WFB offspring 25% of the time. In this case, if WFB is a co dominant trait (I think it is), the normal looking "hets" will never produce WFB's when bred to each other.

There is usually a "super" form when dealing with co dom traits, which is produced when two of the co dom's are bred to each other. The "super" form is produced (statistically) 25% of the time. Sometimes it is visually different than the co dom form and sometimes it looks the same. I have heard talk of some breeders that have WFB's that always produce WFB offspring, even when bred to a normal grey. These are most likely the "super" form of the WFB, and came from WFB to WFB breedings.

Just my $.02 on the genetics of the WFB <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Edited by KelliH (04/12/05 01:17 PM)

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#43078 - 04/12/05 03:21 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


WFB hets should be called, Possible WFB hets, this way, it implies that the gene is either there or not. We should not be selling them as regular grays.

I'd like to see a breeder of leucistics sell the offspring of a leucistic glider for $200... it would never happen, they would sell them as possible hets, for what, $600 or so? I don't think White Face Blondes should be any different.

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#43079 - 04/12/05 03:30 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Leucistic hets are a lot rarer and cost a lot more to obtain the genetics to breed for them. WFB are only 500 or so for a glider showing the gene. Leucistics are 2000 for a glider showing the gene. It is very reasonable to ask 600 for a possible leucistic het but no so for a possible WFB het. They are a lot more common and so it might be reasonable to expect to pay 200 for a possible WFB het especially when normals are selling for only 100.

Ushuaia

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#43080 - 04/12/05 03:40 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh I wasn't implying that wfb hets should be sold for as much as possible leucistic hets are selling.

There are gliders selling for around $100, but mostly gliders with physical or behavoir issues. I have sold joeys perfectly fine for $200 and have had many people contact me expecting to pay that price. $150 - $200 is still the norm for a gray joey.

I was just saying, what is the harm of selling a "possible" wfb het for $50-$100 more than a regular gray? Your paying that amount for the chance it carries the wfb gene, just like your paying $600 for the chance that a glider is carrying the leucistic gene. It is the same concept, just one color is more rare than the other.

Yes, it is proven that 2 het for leucistics will produce a leucistic.. but it won't happen every time they reproduce. There are so very little people breeding 2 het for WFBs together, that I don't think we know enough to say that the offspring of WFBs, if not WFB, are just normal grays.


Edited by Pocket Angels (04/12/05 03:44 PM)

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#43081 - 04/13/05 07:49 AM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well then I guess I will see what happens. I have now paired 2 sets of WFB hets. Let the record keeping begin <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#43082 - 04/13/05 11:18 AM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Skyblue (javiar) just had 2 joeys born from possible het for wfb pairing. The joeys were normal. Keep us all updated because we all would love to know that 2 possible hets can make wfb babies. Umm can I ask you what generations you are putting together. I don't know for sure but I would think that if you put maybe 2 3rd generation wfb hets together they might have a better chance...again that is just a guess of mine.

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#43083 - 04/13/05 11:47 AM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: RSXTC]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Generation number is meaningless. If a glider has the gene(s) to make WFB then it can produce them with the same frequency even if it is only a first generation het vs. a third generation het. It will not throw more WFB's just because of its generation number.

Ushuaia

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#43084 - 04/13/05 12:44 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


it wouldn't make a gene stronger?? Why do breeders sell a wfb pos het with 2 wfb for $300 compaired to the ones with only one wfb parent? And even the wfb with more wfb lineages are going for more...that is why I thought that. Still wasn't saying that all 3rd generation hets would carry the gene, just thought maybe it would be passed on easier....BUT what do I know LOL

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#43085 - 04/13/05 12:52 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: RSXTC]
SkyBlueGliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1314
Loc: Northern New Jersey
Sil, your right. I have a poss wfb het pairing. One is a gray male with 1 wfb parent, the other is a gray female with 2 wfb parents. The outcome was 2 regular gray boys, and this was thier 1st joeys.

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#43086 - 04/13/05 03:54 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


generation number is irrelavent because if the glider has the genes necessary they will be passed on if not they will not be. Generation number only indicates the number of gliders that previously showed the phenotype and this in no way make one gene (or series of genes) more probable than another to be passed. I am not sure why this has started but to be a 3rd generation WFB does not make it any more likly that you will pass on your genes that if you were a 1st generation WFB.

Ushuaia

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#43087 - 04/13/05 03:58 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Generation number is meaningless. If a glider has the gene(s) to make WFB then it can produce them with the same frequency even if it is only a first generation het vs. a third generation het. It will not throw more WFB's just because of its generation number.

Ushuaia

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I don't know if I necessarily agree with this.
Do you mean hets or wfb offspring,both those who do and do not exhibit the phenotype, altogether?

It seems to me that for certain genes not to increase in frequency over multiple generations of selective breeding for those specific genes would be contrary to evolution.

I could be wrong, I'm not genetics expert and never will be....lol
Here are some links I found that might shed some light on the subject, or...maybe not.
Hardy Weinberg evolution stuff...
And some more stuff

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#43088 - 04/13/05 04:23 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think what he was saying is that if the gene is there, it's there. If the gene isn't there, it isn't there. The gene won't "dilute" if not seen for a generation or 2, it's still there in the same form.

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#43089 - 04/13/05 04:54 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Generation number is meaningless. If a glider has the gene(s) to make WFB then it can produce them with the same frequency even if it is only a first generation het vs. a third generation het. It will not throw more WFB's just because of its generation number.

Ushuaia

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Hmmm... I dunno... I don't have a definite answer to this seeing as it is possible that the above statement can be true or false depending on the nature of the glider genes, which again is fairly complex and largely unexplored territory. I'd imagine, for instance, assuming there are multiple genotypes and/or multiple allele pairs to the lion phase (e.g. different degrees of lion phase like light lion, dark lion, sunkiss lion, etc) then it's possible the genes could have commulative effects, therefore theoretically making second, third, fourth, etc generation parents possess more "lion" colour genes (and thus create a greater likelyhood of the phenotype expressing itself in the young, whatever degree of the phenotype happens to result) than say a spontaneous first generation lion parent. Note that this is only a hypothetical example of how generation can be significant in determining phenotypic frequencies in offspring.

***Ahhhhh headaches!!!!*** <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tantrum.gif" alt="" />

So, this is where we now turn to those valuable folks who have established glider genetics labs in their very own homes - the breeders!!!

[:"green"] ATTENTION ALL BREEDERS PLEASE REPORT YOUR DATA!!!

Do any of you colour breeders a.k.a. the closest thing we have to glider geneticists here in North America, assuming you have kept close records of the pedigrees, notice a greater frequency in a specific colour phenotype (e.g. joeys turning out to be WFB) from parents that are second or third generation of that colour phenotype (e.g. 2nd or 3rd generation WFB) in comparison to that produced from first generation parents of that phenotype (e.g. 1st generation WFB)?
[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> This is why it doesn't take a simple 6 month course to become a certified geneticist. We could all be certified geneticists and learn it all offline if that was the case. It takes several years of study to fully grasp it all! So many principles and factors... my brain wants to vomit right now! LOL... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#43090 - 04/14/05 01:10 AM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I will add to what Mikey asked: breeders, have any of you produced WFB joeys from a "Het" WFB to "Het" WFB breeding? Enquiring minds want to know! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />


Edited by KelliH (04/14/05 01:11 AM)

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#43091 - 04/14/05 01:25 AM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I only have eight pairs of wf blondes. Three pairs being wf blonde x wf blondes. Four pairs consist of wf blonde x choc. One pair is a blonde normal who has a het for wf father x to a wf blonde.

Now the hets... they are noticably different in the faces when compared to the Standard colored gray. For one...where the bars are under the ears...one will notice some fading and lessening of the bars when compared to a normal. Thus...my guess is the white face gene is a dilute one.

As to hets being paired to wf blondes...some of the lineage in my gliders do have hets in the first and second generations of their pedigree.

When I set up my pairs my intentions were to do all wf blonde x wf blonde. But due to the lineage this was going to be a problem so I choose then to set up some pairs with wf blonde x choc.

As to who has produced what... I will have to go through my paperwork and see how many wf blondes my gliders have produced within the past two years or so. But I only have one pair that is a blonde in color from a wf het and wf glider x wf blonde female. Offspring I can tell you have been five babies within the year with four of them being wf blonde and one offspring that was standard but light in coloration. I know... as this pair I handfeed two sets of twins from day one. Their last offspring...they managed to raise on their own.

Also, most of my gliders are from the Sandridge line so they already have multi generations of line breeding. Then one line is from Glider Tree which has two or so generations and two wf gliders are from Flying Fur Ranch so they go back a couple of generations as well.

Problem is with some of these lines... the mega breeders never paid attention to what was out in their buildings as to color. So, as to how and where these variations came from is very much a mystery. My guess is...the variation was there all the time and it was masked. Small breeders who selectively bred for the white face variation...we now see more and more White Face Blondes easily available.

In my opinion it would take a breeder to breed wf blonde lineage offspring that do not exhibit the color of the white face about two years of breeding to figure out wither the standard colored offspring of white face blondes are capable of producing White Face Offspring.

I personally have never suggested breeding two Standard colored wf offspring who do not exhibit the true white face to each other as the ratio of producing a white face if applied to the pundant square takes longer to produce.... if one goes by the theory of it.

The orig person to contact as far as percentages as to breeding white faces to hets or wf het to wf het.....is Mike Sandridge. He has been breeding the White Face Blonde for about four and half years or so.

Only other breeder I knew who was working with the White Face Blonde was a person named Linda Larkins of Southern Exotics. She and another breeder were breeding them befor Mike Sandridge as I was on a waiting list a year or so befor Mike retained his first three white faces. Linda Larkins of Southern Exotics no longer is in business. She vanished about the time Mike aquired his white faced gliders.


Edited by Judie (04/14/05 01:41 AM)

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#43092 - 04/14/05 02:15 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you so much Judie, for taking the time to post that. That is some very interesting info. I think I will contact Mike Sandridge and see if he has anything to add. I'll post what I find out here.

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#43093 - 04/14/05 02:36 PM Re: Genetic Confused *DELETED* [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Post deleted by Leyna

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#43094 - 04/14/05 03:21 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


hmmmm... must be nice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
I think to really test the theory of whether or not wf hets are "useful" a person should use hets from two wf parents.
I also heard that Sandridge did get a wf from two hets, but haven't seen proof.

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#43095 - 04/14/05 03:29 PM Re: Genetic Confused *DELETED* [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Post deleted by Leyna

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#43096 - 04/14/05 04:06 PM Re: Genetic Confused [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Here is a list of Large breeders for those who want to contact and ask if they have done any wf blond Het to wf blonde Het breedings. 1)Priscilla, paired some Standard colored white face offspring that were of normal coloration and ask for her results. 2) SunCoast and ask Lisa, 3) Flying Fur Ranch ask for Susan, and also...4) Custom Cage Works ask for Steve and 5)Mary of Glider Tree. And of course... 6) Mike Sandridge.

If none of those above breeders have produced White Face Blondes from wf blonde het x wf blonde het for a lengthy period of time (not less than 1 1/2 years with the same paired together for that time) then one more than likely could assume that there then is no such thing as a white face blonde het.

And to be honest... I myself cannot prove out the theory since I have not done any wf het x wf het. I already have fifteen pairs of gliders and cannot take on more. Space nor time will allow it.

If the large breeders cannot tell us the answer to this question....then it will need to be smaller breeders who are capable and willing to set up pairs of wf blonde hets x wf blonde hets to make or break this theory as to wither or not this so called het is a het.


Edited by Judie (04/15/05 03:27 PM)
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