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#432119 - 12/11/07 02:36 PM Which fruits do you feed with HPW???
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Sorry everyone, I know I'm always asking so many questions lately, I must be getting annoying by now, lol.

Here's my question for the hour:

Which fruits do you feed with HPW?

I've been doing some research on that diet and read on another forum that in order to get the correct cal:phow leverls you need to feed fruits and veggies that are near the 2:1 mark, like with BML, because the diet alone is lacking a bit in the calcium area.

I have checked many different cal:phos lists and there are plenty of veggies that are 2:1(or near there), but there are only 3 fruits: prickly pears(which can not be fed to gliders), figs, and backberries(which can only be fed sparingly). frown Oh yeah, and a bunch of citrus fruits, but aren't those only supposed to be a rare treat as well?

Am I missing certain fruits, or is that it? Also, if I were to feed higher calcium ratio veggies, would that balance it out?

I'm not feeding this diet at the moment, but I'm always on the lookout for better stuff. wink
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#432155 - 12/11/07 03:02 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: Guerita135]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


I almost ALWAYS feed Papaya because it has a GREAT calcium to phosphorous ratio, and the gliders LOVE it. You can definitely feed higher calcium veggies if you wanted to.. Spinach is 2:1

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#432173 - 12/11/07 03:12 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
WannaBeMom
Unregistered


I feed papaya (fresh or dried) frequently, and usually pair it with corn/peas/green beans. I feed a lot of greens (collards, kale, spinach, romaine, etc) which my guys LOVE, and usually pair it with melons (honeydew, cantaloupe or watermelon), apple (peeled), grapes (occasionally), strawberries, blueberries, blackberries (messy; occasionally), avocado (high in fat, but definetly a favorite).

Sometimes they'll get some mango (not a favorite), kiwi, oranges, sweet potato, brocolli, zuchinni and/or cucumber.

HTH.

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#432242 - 12/11/07 04:40 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Ok, Paypaya, that's another one for the list. wink Any others?

Ceratinly there MUST be other fruits that are high on the list. frown Maybe starfruit or something?
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#432253 - 12/11/07 04:51 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: Guerita135]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas

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#432256 - 12/11/07 04:54 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: Guerita135]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


As far as fruits go, other than the papaya, i haven't found many that have a positive ca:ph ratio .. BUT what i usually do is get some fresh spinach and chop it REALLY REALLY FINE.. even can put it in a blender. Then you can sprinkle it over their favorite foods..

you can also do the same with collard greens.

I have to be deceptive with my suggies cause all they REALLY like is corn and sweet peas.. so i get creative and it works.. all of the spinach was gone the next day because it was covering all of their favorite foods.

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#432261 - 12/11/07 04:58 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Do you give them the spinach raw or cooked?
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#432265 - 12/11/07 05:05 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: CharmedSuggies]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


I sometimes use raw spinach but you have to make sure you clean it REALLY GOOD..

I also use frozen spinache and just thaw it a little in some hot water and then chop it up with scissors and put the veggies in the water with the spinach, stir and then drain.. its pretty effective in covering the other veggies.

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#432273 - 12/11/07 05:09 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Thankyou Lindsay! Just wanted to make sure if it made a difference raw or cooked.
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#432277 - 12/11/07 05:14 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: CharmedSuggies]
ThePastafarian
Unregistered


I thought spinach, being high in oxalates, prohibited calcium absorption? So, while being high in calcium, it actually negates itself and the calcium of the other food you're feeding...

Mind don't get spinach anymore...

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#432284 - 12/11/07 05:21 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Did not know that til now. thanks for the info, won't be trying spinach!
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Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

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#432313 - 12/11/07 05:50 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: CharmedSuggies]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


oxalates do not prohibit the absorbtion of calcium, phosphorous does.. Oxalates are a harder form of calcium, they are more solid. its like when a human takes a manufactured vitamin.. they are hard and solid.. your body only absorbs a portion of it because of how solid it is..

oxalate acid will lower the absorbtion on calcium in HUMANS to only about 5% of the total calcium absorbed from spinach but small animals are different. In most small animals that masticate their food have something in their saliva that breaks down oxalates into more digestable minerals - and the end result is calcium.

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#432316 - 12/11/07 05:53 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Wow, very informative Lindsay. Ok, so back to trying the spinach! lol Thankyou for clearing that concern up!
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Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
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Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

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#432328 - 12/11/07 06:01 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: CharmedSuggies]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


Well, i am not vet.. but i have talked to vets about it because it was brought up when we were talking about some kinda of cactus form mexico... So i researched and asked and found out that because of the way they chew and chew and then spit out the solids, their saliva does a lot more work than ours does.. we rely only on our stomach acide, but the gliders have that AND thier saliva

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#432331 - 12/11/07 06:03 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: CharmedSuggies]
ThePastafarian
Unregistered


LAG, where'd you find your references?

Everything I've read said that oxalates bind solubale calcium, thus making it insoluble and therefore un-absorbable by the body.

I'm not sure why masticating would have any influence, seeing as how oxalates are harder to break down than most vitamins/minerals.

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#432344 - 12/11/07 06:17 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Lag I would like to see where you got that info as well.

I was told by my vet the same thing as stated here:

Quote:
oxalates bind solubale calcium, thus making it insoluble and therefore un-absorbable by the body.


And although the foods COULD be fed, they should be fed in moderation.
_________________________
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Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#432350 - 12/11/07 06:25 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: CharmedSuggies]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
Melissa, you can't take the word of any one person as fact. You should research the benefits and risks of spinach on your own so you can be confident that you are well informed. smile I just had to laugh at how you assumed the first person who posted was correct, then when someone else posted to negate that info you changed your mind again.

Not saying that anyone who has posted is incorrect, just saying that doing your own research never hurt anyone.



Linda~ I love the last link you posted! Great info. smile
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#432351 - 12/11/07 06:25 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: Srlb]
WannaBeMom
Unregistered


Does this concern relate specifically to spinach, or does it affect the other dark, leafy greens like collards, beet greens, romaine, arugala?

I give these almost daily...so...I'd really like to know. I asked the question before, and was told all leafy greens were basically excellent to feed, if the gliders would eat them. Apparently, a lot of gliders don't care for them?

Anyways...

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#432356 - 12/11/07 06:29 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4273
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
lol, I know Linda. I was busy at the time doing several things at once and didn't take the time I should have.
_________________________
Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
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#432365 - 12/11/07 06:37 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


Pasta, you are reading about it in humans, not in animals that masticate their food. The truth (what i was told) is that calcium oxalates are very easily broken down if you have the right chemical compounds and bacterial organisms working together.

chloride salts are one thing that increses the solutbility in calcium oxalate and although humans have forms of chloride salts in their saliva, sugar gliders have more AND use it more because of the WAY they masticate thier food.

If you were to look into the mastication and absoption of calcium from EUCALYPTUS you will see that many animals get calcium from EUCALYPTUS but that calcium is in the form of calcium oxalates. From what i understand, most leafy veggies that contain calcium are in the form of calcium oxalates, it is just that someanimals are more well equipped to utilize that calcium.

I don't have the exact break down of what sugar glider saliva is made up of, but i DO have what HUMAN saliva is made up of. From what I am told, most of our saliva has the same basic composition, it is the quantity of certain minerals, and chemicals are what makes us all different...

Please PM me for the composition if your interested.






Edited by LSardou (12/11/07 06:46 PM)
Edit Reason: removed insert

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#432375 - 12/11/07 06:54 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


again, i am going by my own research and talking to a vet, I am in NO WAY a vet nor a professional researcher so i CAN be wrong, but to me the information i got, and the information that i found to corroborate the intial information i found made sense..

Basically my finders were:
Oxalates bind solutable calcium (and other minerals) the calcium oxalates are ALREADY BOUND molecules of calcium. So they are in OXALATE FORM.

In order to make the calcium oxalate crystals more soluable, you need certain OTHER molecules, bacteria, and chemicals to work together. One of those is chloride salts.

I have a eco-chem. PDF that touches on the break down of minerals in plants and the use of saliva in herbavores in order to break down oxalates. It is a BIG file, and a lot of it is useless because it talks more about insects rather than mammals..

I also found a study where a mexican wood rat had shown that it very easily obtained it's calcium from a cactus which contained only calcium oxalates.

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#432380 - 12/11/07 07:00 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
I was also told the same thing as Peggy and Hayley about the oxalates in spinach from my exotics vet when we had the iguanas. They require a ca:ph ratio similar to gliders, but spinach and several other greens are a no-no because of the oxalates in them. With the iguana, we stuck to mustard and dandelion greens (I think the other was kale..)
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#432382 - 12/11/07 07:05 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: BeckiT]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


Almost all dark leafy greens are high in oxalates..

I have a link that shows that even dandelion leaves are quite high in oxalates.

I am not saying that your vet was wrong, but it is VERY possible that when you were talking about oxalates and your iguanas, they were not taking in to concideration a diet of sugar gliders.

I am not saying the spinach is not high in oxalates, i'm saying that gliders, and other animals that eat eucalyptus and other leafy greens will be able to digest them.


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#432383 - 12/11/07 07:07 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


And among further research, i found that mustard greens also are concidered to have a high amount of oxalates along with green beans, strawberries, and many many more...

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#432384 - 12/11/07 07:09 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
I understand what YOU are saying Lag, however...

I think I will follow what my vet who went to school for over 12 years for exotic specialites says...

It is very good to know you do your research however. One thing to keep in mind...

a wood rat is a rodent
a glider is a marsupial...

TOTALLY different DNA wink
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#432385 - 12/11/07 07:14 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: Srlb]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


I understand that a woodrat is a rodent. I was just using it as a comparison to show that it is VERY VERY possible that an animal COULD be able to dissolve oxalates and digest them unlike humans.. I was also using it because it was something that i have on paper for people to read for themselves.

I'm not trying to tell everyone to disregard their vets and listen to me.. But just know that i am not just going by what i read on the internet and in some books. I am ALSO going by my vet who has been practicing for 20 years and is one of the #1 sgar glider vets in my state. Its not an unfounded statement.

I do want you guys to know though, that all the things that are concidered low in oxalates really arent all that low.. So if you want to avoid counting calcium oxalate in with the ca:ph ratio because it is not digested (in your opinion) then you should really find out exactly how much of the calcium in your diets comes from oxalates, i think it will surprise you.

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#432388 - 12/11/07 07:17 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: Srlb]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Iguanas are fed on a diet that consists largely of leafy greens wink

there is a partial list of the oxalate content in greens here

and if you scroll down a little on this page, you'll see the selected nutrients in selected greens chart, which lists spinach, turnip greens and kale as high in oxalates
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Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#432393 - 12/11/07 07:26 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: BeckiT]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


My point is that no matter how high the oxalate content is, sugar gliders are able to digest it..

I actually just read that humans CAN digest oxalates and absorb calcium in oxalate form as well as long as they CHEW THEIR FOOD and have a healthy digestive tract. This just goes to show that the fact that sugar gliders masticate their food completely and do not swallow without chewing their food completely, they should/could be able to digest the oxalates in spinach.

Iguanas, on the other hand, do not chew their food at all, and their natural environment may not have leafy greens that contain a lot of oxalates. (i really have no idea) BUT sugar gliders DO. They eat EUCALYPTUS in the wild which is also known to have high content of oxalates.

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#432407 - 12/11/07 07:38 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered


i also just read that frozen veggies have less oxalates than raw.. so if you want to feed spinach, but are on the fence about calcium, try feeding frozen rather than fresh/raw

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#432416 - 12/11/07 07:47 PM Re: Which fruits do you feed with HPW??? [Re: ]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Thsnk you for the links LSardou. I'm checking them out right now. smile
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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