Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
jen102375, NatalieFuzzbutt, upsoon
Featured Member
Registered: 12/28/15
Posts: 506
Last 10 Posts
Bare Tail Question
by Ladymagyver
6 minutes 51 seconds ago
Introducing Two Colonies
by KarenE
Today at 01:26 PM
Seeking a Bra Baby Glider for PTSD
by KarenE
Today at 11:01 AM
Should breeding pairs ever be separated?
by KarenE
Today at 09:48 AM
Took in a glider from my Ex
by KarenE
Today at 09:48 AM
Looking for vet recommendation, Atlanta
by Jen_faith
Today at 04:40 AM
Fruits and Veggies
by KarenE
Yesterday at 10:39 AM
Questions about following Critter Love diet exactly as written
by KarenE
Yesterday at 10:37 AM
My dog Willow
by Terry
10/21/17 06:36 PM
Too Soon To Say Goodbye, my Lulu
by Ladymagyver
10/21/17 05:44 AM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#43395 - 04/15/05 04:50 PM Question for those breeding colours...
Anonymous
Unregistered


I hope I don't sound stupid asking this question; this post is purely one stemming from mere curiosity from a non-breeder.

I was wondering about your protocols with raising joeys. Do you colour breeders, especially those breeding the rarer colours like leucistic, mosaiic, etc, separate the joeys from the parents early and hand raise them yourself so to eliminate the occurrence of cannibalism and hence losing the joey and its valuable genes (i.e. 'valuable' in respect to breeders attempting to propogate such colour phases, ofcourse) altogether?

I was just wondering that today. Does cannibalism happen even in the later stages of joeyhood or does it usually occur at birth? Can one even successfully raise a joey from it's slimy, pink begining stages?

Thanks in advance! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#43396 - 04/15/05 04:55 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know that they do not pull joeys that would be too much work and most color breeders have over 20 gliders and that will be alot of work on their part. Also I dont think that one can raise a joey from the pink stage.cannibalism can happen anytime like when ip or a few weeks oop.

Top
#43397 - 04/15/05 05:02 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks, Kris! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But see, though some breeders may have 20 or so gliders or even pairs, I'm sure the number of leucistics or mosaiic involved pairings, for instance, wouldn't be that high. I was referring to the rarer colours like these (i.e. leucistic, albino, mosaiic, etc).

Theoretically, then, though it may be a lot of work to pull such joeys from the parents, I'd imagine that prematurely pulling say 4 or 6 potential or certain leucistic, albino, or mosaiic joeys, for instance, would certainly be worth the effort, seeing as:

1. For some breeders, that would entail money ofcourse (and thousands of dollars at that), which even disregarding the profit factor, could go towards supplies and costs for their other gliders,

2. Allow for the further propogation of these rare colours in the captive glider gene pool.

I was curious as to whether any colour breeders do this. Please do PM me if confidentiality is an issue.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#43398 - 04/15/05 05:04 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well I don't know much about raising joeys from their slimy pink beginning lol. But, I do think the cannibalism happens more so when the joeys are younger. I do think allot of the breeders breeding colors do the same as the breeders not breeding color. If they have a glider with valuble genetics (or not) that is known for rejecting their joeys they will hand rear. But I think that most color breeders do TRY to keep the babies with the parents for as long as possible. Allot of the people breeding rarer colors usually have their hands full with how many differant gliders they have to take care of anyway. Then on top of that pulling and hand rearing every "rare" joey just because would be practically impossible lol (just my opinion). I personally think that most of the time if the mother has been a good mother and there are low risk factors in leaving the "rare" joey in with the mother untill its ready there's absaloutely no reason to pull the joey. Infact if the joey and mamma are perfectly healthy and doing great, there's more of a risk in hand rearing it then just letting it be with mom.

Top
#43399 - 04/15/05 05:06 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm pretty sure Sheila has pulled and hand reared most of pricess's (her albino's) joeys but I'm not 100% posative on that.

Top
#43400 - 04/15/05 05:11 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


No Princess has rejected most of them these two joeys that she just had were the first to not be rejected she did supplment though.

Edit Oops that was wrong sorry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Edited by KristopherDeRose (04/16/05 03:23 PM)

Top
#43401 - 04/15/05 05:46 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It would be impossible to raise a joey at birth, it is way too small and way under-developed. Alot of joeys are cannibalized after they come OOP usually within the first week to week and a half.

I am not sure about other breeders, but I personally would not pull a colored joey, or a regular joey for that matter, to ensure that it survives, unless I see signs that it would be rejected or eaten. I believe that nature should take its course. If the joey is rejected, then I will step in to hand raise it. If I had a mother that was known to cannibalize her joeys, I would not continue to breed her, only to pull her babies. I know that many breeders will continue to breed "bad mothers", and may pull the joey before something happens, but I am not one of those breeders. I use the 3 strike method. If she rejects or loses 3 litters, she is retired from breeding. I don't believe in putting the glider through the heartache.

Top
#43402 - 04/15/05 06:40 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have never heard of a breeder pulling a joey to protect color....but I'm sure it happens <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />

Top
#43403 - 04/16/05 02:46 AM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Does cannibalism happen even in the later stages of joeyhood or does it usually occur at birth?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Sometimes joeys "disappear" when in pouch. Some are also possibly cannibalized in transit to the pouch, which I guess one might have a hard time knowing for sure.
Most often, joeys are cannibalized when they are just oop and before they open their eyes.

I have thought about what I'd do if my leucistic het and possible het were to end up having a leucistic joey.
I know I'd be in absolute shock and would want more than anything in the world to ensure it's survival, but, I don't think I'd intervene unless it was obviously being neglected and rejected. I would most definitely not jump in and pull it without proper cause.

Top
#43404 - 04/16/05 04:04 AM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Over the years I have handfed a dozen babies... all were not mine and were orphans and usually only a day or so oop.

Sesamie and Shy Baby....I supplemented thier first set of twins. Sesamie was a proven breeder but on the other hand...Shy Baby was not and he was a horrible daddy.

When their babies came oop. Sesamie would leave to stretch and eat and along with her....was Shy Baby. Thus the babies were left in the pouch with no one to keep them warm. Within a few days a problem developed with one of the white babies on the floor of the four foot cage and ice cold.

Thus the supplementing began with the two babies. Every two hours I would rotate one of the babies to supplement. It was touch and go for a week and half with Tai Pan the smallest of the two white twins. In the meantime...Sesamie and Shy Baby rebred and within another week her milk supply caught up with the demands of the little ones. Supplental feedings were gradually tapered and then discontinued.

Second time around...Shy Baby was a wonderfull Daddy as he is today....several litters later. He does his babysitting so Sesamie can have some freedom from her motherly duties. And as the current babies have grown and are now weaned...he grooms and play wrestles with them...favorite hideout during playtime is a tee pee. Inside the tee pee, one will usually find Shy Baby and the twins all squished together....mock fighting and tisk tisk'ing at each other.... as the game becomes a little rough between the three of them.

I have a pair of White Face Blondes...who for some reason...the mother was unable to prouce enough milk for her little ones. So...I supplemented the babies every four hours and would return them to her. Then the bite marks got worse and by two weeks oop. babies had to be pulled. So...for two sets of twins...I handfed her babies. Then the third time around...only one joey in pouch....Crayola and Sophia raised this one little one on their own. Now they have twins again...so we will see if she can do the twins without help from me this time around.

I have owned gliders for over eight years. I will tell you...it does not make a difference if the joey is white, blonde or gray as I own all....when it comes to having to intervean in order to save a little one's life if at all possible... I will.

Money has never been a factor wither one lives or dies due to it's color. It has always been my love affair of the species and their offspring that dictates what I do for their welfare. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Judie (04/16/05 04:26 AM)

Top
#43405 - 04/16/05 11:48 AM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


We once had a baby that the mother had passed away. The joey was grey and had markings but was not yet really fuzzy. We called Sandman (in Texas) for advice. He told us what to do but also said it was unlikely the baby would survive. He said that until a joey is atleast fuzzy it's chances were poor.
We managed to keep the joey alive for 2 days and then it passed on. We had tiny tubes to feed her, had appropriate incubation, etc but it all failed. She was just to tiny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I had a folder in the gallery about her but think it may have been deleted by now as it was about 2 or 3 years ago. If it is still there it is listed as Tager's little girl. On ABCsugargliders on Yahoo it is listed under Bijoux (what I called her). You would be able to se how tiny she was and how she looked.

Lori

Top
#43406 - 04/16/05 01:46 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just a note Judie: Nice to see another James Clavel fan <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Top
#43407 - 04/16/05 02:50 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Mickey, please read this page.page
Kris is wrong about pulling all of Princess's joeys. I actually only pulled the first two at three weeks of age because I was already having to supplement them and I had a vacation with my family planned to Florida. Anita with Sweetgliders took them and fed them for me. I did not want to move Princess to Anita's house for fear of her getting upset about being in a strange place and someone else caring for her joeys. Her other joeys, I left with her even though I almost lost her on this last set after her mate died the day the joeys came oop. I believe that most of the colored breeders don't have other jobs except for Anita. That allows us to see and hear hourly if rejection is about to occur. My philosophy is to supplement the joey because I feel mother's milk is best. It is very satisfying to a mother to feed her joeys - even with a glider like Princess. She is not your average mother who rejects. She never nips at the joey or tries to harm it. She just doesn't understand her job, but is catching on. Most gliders that are canabalized have been dead for at least an hour. Gliders are also canabalized with large breeders when their regular help go on vacation and they have a substitute person handling food dishes. Parents do morn over their young, so if a joey is pulled, the parents are stressed, looking for it. Also it is unhealthy not only emotionally for the mom which can wear down on them, but physically. If you pulled them, their milk could get engourged and if not expressed could cause infection. She can also become depressed with the absence of the joeys. Three days after pulling the joeys, she would re-breed and within 16 days carry a joey again. This breaks down the physical body of the mom, probably only giving her a short life due to the number of pregnancies in a year and the emotional stress of the constant loss of her joeys. Last year I put a joey back with mom, even though she had never rejected one before and was 2 years old. I was doing most of the supplementing and mom very little feeding, but in two 24 hour periods back to back I kept the joey out too long. The mother didn't recognize the joey or the smell, because it had been with me for 12 hours. The mother killed the joey. She was a Leucistic het. I had left the glider room for about three minutes. When I came back, I heard the fighting over the joey and pulled the baby away from the mom. She was almost dead. I wrapped her in a bag and put her in the freezer immediately. It was the hardest thing I have ever had to face as a breeder. Even though that happened to me, I would still put the baby with the mom again, just more time than with me. I believe that the baby experiences stress when pulled and even when supplemented. I have seen hair loss as with three babies I have supplemented and put back with mom. Once the babies were coming to the table to eat (6.5-7 weeks), I tapered off the feeding and saw the hair grow back.
I am just as concerned with the parents as I am the babies. I have the same method for non colors as colors. My love to save the joeys and my method is the same regardless of color. If I am charging a lot of money for a joey, I want it to be the healthiest that it can be and that means stay with mom and dad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

Top
#43408 - 04/16/05 03:21 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oops thats a my bad sorry sheila I thought she rejected them but sorry <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Top
#43409 - 04/16/05 03:28 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Canabalism can happen as late as 3 weeks oop.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

Top
#43410 - 04/19/05 05:52 AM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So ... is rejection and cannibalism more common with colour variations then?

Also - I had to pull a glider away from her mum as she was very ill - anyway, I was told that handreared gliders won't breed and will probably be killed by other gliders as they don't really see themselves as gliders - is this not true??

Top
#43411 - 04/19/05 10:29 AM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ozzi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I wouldn't think the rate of rejection would change based on color at all. It is just that there are fewer of the color variations out there so it may seem higher.

I doubt that is true. I have two hand reared girls and though they are currently housed by themselves their daddy goes to visit them occasionally when he is out to play.

I have not tried to breed them but I am planning to try eventually. The only problem I have is that my rescue Skittles seems to be a dominant female and doesn't seem to want to get along with them. I just figured that one of the twins was also dominant and that they were having some dominance issues.

Top
#43412 - 04/20/05 08:27 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Temperament, Health and WEllness, Age, First time Glider, Experienced glider father all are factors in whether or not a joey is rejected. The colored glider would have a lower immune level, therefore making it more probable. I would say that is probably for Leucistic and Albino lines only.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

Top
#43413 - 04/21/05 06:21 AM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I follow the same rule as Jess. None of my joeys are pulled early for no reason and hand raised. I believe the natural parents are the best for raising their joeys.

Top
#43414 - 04/21/05 04:44 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Luckily in most people the desire for profit doesn't overide the hearts desire to care for any animal in need.

For that I am greatful.

Jackie

Top
#43415 - 05/01/05 11:32 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


How common is rejection?

Top
#43416 - 05/02/05 12:18 AM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks everyone for participating in this thread and for all your valuable input!

Actually, I originally sought to start this thread and make it appear that I was attempting to morally justify pulling joeys for the purpose of propogating rare colour lines and profit. I worded it to make it seem like I was "for" the idea in hopes to perhaps get anyone to admit even privately that they practice early pulling for rare colour promotion and even profit. I was just curious as to who and how many breeders may have done so...

Needless to say, no one did (assuming it's because the majority is simply responsible and not because they were still afraid to admit their intentions and practices; if the latter was the case, then my futile attempts at forum trickery is laughable at best <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />) and it's great to see that the health and well-being of the glider is always the number 1 priority! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#43417 - 05/02/05 02:50 AM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL Mikey your such a weirdo LOL.

Top
#43418 - 05/06/05 01:28 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


wait... one more...lol...
it's propAgate... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
e

Top
#43419 - 05/09/05 11:51 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Woops! Aww man! I am so bad with typos and spelling! Thanks Jamedw1!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#43420 - 05/15/05 10:06 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 5916
Loc: Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Thanks, Kris! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But see, though some breeders may have 20 or so gliders or even pairs, I'm sure the number of leucistics or mosaiic involved pairings, for instance, wouldn't be that high. I was referring to the rarer colours like these (i.e. leucistic, albino, mosaiic, etc).

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Well Since there are only a few breeders of these colors and we know them well. IMO this was not a very nice way to try to get someone to post they pull babies for more money. The work you have to put in to a new joey is hard and I have only had to supplement. Trickery is NOT very nice and I'm hurt it was even tried. I thought we were all family? NOW KISS AND MAKE UP. XOXOXOX
_________________________
cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx

Top
#43421 - 05/16/05 06:35 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh my Goodness! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Sorry to offend you, cyndiekb, or anyone else I may have offended with this thread! I wasn't trying to trick someone into making that person(s) look bad. It was merely a means to find out something I was curious about. Perhaps my tact brought across the wrong message, and I see that now. I wasn't planning on slamming anyone, and infact, I didn't even know for sure if such a practice was considered cruel at all. In my mind it was, but I wasn't sure if it was perhaps accepted by some in the community, e.g. the cropping of ears of dogs or the declawing of cats. You must understand that I am largely inexperienced with gliders and breeding, as I have always (until recently) owned my gliders singly, and hence am definitely NOT familiar with everyone in the glider breeding circle. It's why I began to de-participate in the thread as I began to realize that such an idea was indeed accepted as an inherently immoral act and incredibly bogus.

So I thought that if I presented an argument for the practice of pulling the joeys for preservation of the rare colours, it would perhaps encourage someone who did to post or PM me that they did and their reasons for doing so.

I apologize if it seemed like I was plotting to expose, offend, or demoralize anyone because that was definitely not my intention, and I would never dream of doing that!!! I am sure you all here do care deeply for your gliders and I don't doubt that for a second. I was looking for the truth, and was determined to get it somehow...

*hugs to the GC Fam* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/needhug.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#43422 - 05/16/05 06:39 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... *DELETED* [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> me being dumb..... again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Edited by KristopherDeRose (05/16/05 06:57 PM)

Top
#43423 - 05/16/05 06:42 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kris, read my post again! LOL.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
#43424 - 05/16/05 06:53 PM Re: Question for those breeding colours... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Also, to tell you the truth, part of the reason that made me start such a thread was the apparent, general overinfatuation with gliders of rarer, exotic colours that I thought I was observing, especially among beginners.

To me it began to seem like gliders were becoming collector items as opposed to being pets first! This thread was a means for me to validate that theory. I was hoping it would prove it wrong, and so far with the outcome of this thread, it has.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
4 registered (Terry, Jez, catdaddyharms, Ladymagyver), 32 Guests and 11 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
reba, AlyCatz, mandydarr, FinFiFuFe, Angelicat26
6389 Registered Users
Forum Stats
11 posts in the last 24hrs
6389 Members
134 Forums
8903 Topics
147917 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
Bare Tail Question
by kskill99
Today at 04:57 PM
Took in a glider from my Ex
by New_Guy
Today at 12:11 AM
Should breeding pairs ever be separated?
by AlyCatz
Yesterday at 04:53 AM
Twitchy tale movements
by FinFiFuFe
10/20/17 12:29 AM
Looking for vet recommendation, Atlanta
by Jen_faith
10/19/17 08:40 PM
First time glider owner looking for wisdom
by
10/19/17 03:36 PM
Older Male/Joey Female or Older Female?
by
10/19/17 10:01 AM
Cold snap!
by Ladymagyver
10/19/17 12:51 AM
Bringing Home Your Baby
by Amanda159
10/18/17 06:42 PM
Bedding
by Amanda159
10/18/17 05:53 PM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20203115
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12465220
TEXAS 646327
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 589385
OHIO 505367
Member Titles 449289
MISSOURI 383400
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 360135
OKLAHOMA 344387
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 342397
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017