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#44124 - 04/25/05 04:41 PM Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay, first off, this is a NICE post, if you do not have anything nice or constructive so say, be quiet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

1 - There has been a lot of discussion latly about pelleted diets, I for one would love to find one that is good for my kids and that they like. It's far easier to feed pellets than it is to feed BML, however I won't sacrifice their health just to make my life easier.

2 - I have heard LOTS of talk about how unmoistened pellets cause lumpy jaw, but in the two years I have been on this site I have never read about a confirmed case of this. Not once. And I KNOW there are people on here that feed a hard pelleted diet. So is this just a horrible rumor?! Can someone substantiat this claim?

Keep in mind:
- Gliders have the most complicated nutritional needs of any animals currently in the exotic pet arena (so says my vet)
- diets are VERY controversial, and the only "proof" we currently have that specific diets work is the "proof" that several generations of gliders have seemed to live happy healthy lives on these diets....


SO.... Is there any proof that some of the more controversial diets DO cause problems? (i.e. Cat Food, Ensure, monkey busciuts, etc.)
AND is there any substantial proof that hard pellets really DO cause lumpy Jaw?

Any comments would be great.

I'll admit I have posted a lot about diets latly because I am sort of fed up with it all. I'm frustrated and exhausted with trying to figure out which one is RIGHT when all I feel I have to truly go by is people's opinions and no actual evidence. It's very frustrating <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />Thanks guys! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#44125 - 04/25/05 04:52 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


As far as diets - do your own research, and use your best judgement to make the choices for your children. Don't worry about what others think of what you feed; however, always keep an ear open for good facts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's some good info about Lumpy Jaw: http://www.marsupialsociety.org/jaw_disease2.html

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#44126 - 04/25/05 06:54 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered



I've fed a pelleted diet for a year now, and the gliders were weaned onto this diet by the breeder, and she's apparently breeding on this diet. I'm not sure how long, however.

I'll admit, after reading around on here for a while I decided to add a touch of liquid to my pellets. The gliders seem to eat more of it that way, but it makes the pellets sticky as they dry so I'm always scraping and cleaning the dish. The "more" may just be an illusion because of the bulk added by water, but I don't add more than half a teaspoon.

I'm just not sure about how common LJ would be. From this article the causes seem to be overcrowding, unclean conditions, stress, improper environment (lack of shelter, temperature proper to animal), and diets made up of harsh or dry foods only.

At the same time, it says to avoid diets made up of only soft foods, as there needs to be some crunchy for teeth-cleaning or there tends to be tartar build up.

My Happy_Glider pellets have always seemed hard but not HARSH. They're "mostly" dry, I'd say. There's always been enough moisture in them that they break before they powder, say. I also feed soft fresh vegies, squishy fruits like grapes and tastey things like melon.

'course my babies also get odd foods ... usually whatever they assault me for that isn't dangerous. They stole my oatmeal this morning. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

--fje

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#44127 - 04/25/05 07:12 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Seems to me that your vet would be your best resource. I have had 3 different breeders with 3 different diets. I took the diets with vitamins to my vet and she evaluated each one and gave me a recommendation. My vet is my first line of defense when the babies get sick, so I trust her judgment and since she made the recommendation, if something comes up with a glider, she can personalize their diet based on what she recommended. I know not everyone is as fortunate as I am when it comes to vets, but it's worth it to find a good one. I interviewed 7 before I felt comfortable with my current vet. That old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is so true!

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#44128 - 04/25/05 07:14 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I had a glider for 5 months that I got from someone who fed her a pelleted diet. When I got her she seemed ok, her coat wasn't the prettiest I have seen and the whole colony that I got stunk worse then anything I had smelled before. I took them all to the vet got them checked up and all seemed fine. I switched them over to the diet that I feed and noticed a big improvement in all of their coats and alertness. However 3 months after having this girl and colony I noticed that she started getting a bulge on her jaw. So I took her to my vet. My vet said it was lumpy jaw and she gave me some meds to help treat it. Over the next 2 months and several vet visits it just kept getting worse and worse. The last day that I had her you could tell she was not happy and was in pain. Her jaw looked as if she was chewing on a jawbreaker <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I again took her back to the vet and we both agreed the best thing to do was to put her down.

I know that she didn't get it from the diet that I fed or the condition of my cages. I don't know how old she was or how long the previouse person had her on a pelleted food but my vet confired it was lumpy jaw.

I have never heard of any other cases though and none of the other gliders she was with got it.

But like monster said you need to find a diet that you feel comfortable with. Even with dog and cat food their are SO many choices to choose from, some better then others. But the only way to decide on which one to give is to do research and find out which ones are good/bad.

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#44129 - 04/25/05 07:25 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just got exotic nutritions pellet food and it is not really hard. I can easily break pieces apart with my fingers. My little guy started taking to it slow, but is eating more and more every day. Don't know about the lumpy jaw, but from the link it seems to be caused more by bacteria than hrdness of food. Good Luck with your decision!

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#44130 - 04/25/05 07:38 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


When I first got my gliders they were on happy glider food. I had decided for various reasons that I would eventually switch to BML, before I even got them. But what cemented itfor me was they would not eat the happy glider food. But my reason for switching to BML had nothing to do with Lumpy jaw. In fact their breeder said she had had her gliders on happy gliders for a few years and had not had one case of lumpyjaw or hlp. So I think some of the pelleted diets are safe, it's just a matter of what works for you.

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#44131 - 04/25/05 07:50 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know, that a lot of the gliders who got lumpy jaw were in fact on the BML diet. It is to my understanding, some gliders are just more prone to it than others. My glider Kuzco got lumpy jaw, about 3-4 times before finally he gave up the fight. He was on a pelleted diet, I believe it was insectivore fare at the time...but If I can remember correctly (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that was a more of a moistened pellet than a dry one. I was always also sure to soak any types of pellets I used. My other gliders did not get lumpy jaw. He also got lumpy jaw again, while they were on Darcys diet, where no pellets of any kind are used at all. I suppose a glider can get lumpy jaw from just about anything, they can get it if they chew on wood and it scratches inside their mouth, they can get it from eating bugs, and it scratches them, they can get it if food gets lodged in their saliva gland (i know theres a bigger word/term for that I just cant think of it) to my knowledge their gland is pretty big, and pretty easy to get food caught in there. Just not sure why some gliders get it and others do not. good post. This topic is brought up all the time though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#44132 - 04/25/05 09:32 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


First I would like to say that NO ONE knows for sure anything about gliders. Its one big quessing game right now.

I called a few zoo's and they said they use pellets. Gliders chew on barck in the wild and hard bugs to get the goodies out. So they need this harder food to stay healthy.
I would say feed your hard food and some soft. I think its only safe if they get both.
Briskeys makes a pellet that they have been feeding to their 42 pairs of gliders since 1997.

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#44133 - 04/25/05 09:35 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
they can get it if food gets lodged in their saliva gland (i know theres a bigger word/term for that I just cant think of it)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

You are refering to impacted salvitory glands <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lumpy jaw is kind of a touch and go subject with me. I think that just like cavities in people, some gliders are more prone to it than others. In my 4 years of owning gliders, I have only seen 2 gliders with lumpy jaw. 1 was a rescue with a very boxy shaped head... I think food would get jammed along his gumline causing an infection. The other glider is my boyfriends little man, Bean. Bean also have a boxier head and flushing his mouth out daily with water when he gets lumpy jaw usually cures it... Lol, unfortuately, we discovered this after paying about $100 in vet bills... I think that just like with people, taking care of their teeth is important. A varity of hard and soft foods, plenty of water, and limiting sticky sugary foods or carbinated sugars is the best way to avoid lumpy jaw...

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#44134 - 04/25/05 09:57 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered



Hrm. A friend of mine has a chronic problem with mouth infections. Or had, anyway. Had general good oral hygeine, his dentist just said it was a weird thing pretty much unique to him. He would develop sores and such in his mouth from it. He boiled his toothbrushes daily, etc etc, didn't really help. Listerine really worked, though, and since he keeps listerine strips all of the time, hasn't had a problem since.

I don't suppose there's a glider Listerine out there, but if rinsing with water helps I imagine rinsing with an antiseptic of some sort might help as well. I wouldn't want to use Listerine, but there are some natural mouth wash ingredients that might be safe for gliders.

--fje

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#44135 - 04/26/05 06:16 AM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I feed a pelleted diet but there is only one pelleted diet I will feed. When trying to find the right diet for my first glider (boy was he picky after only eating bird seed for who knows how long) I bought a bunch of different pellets to examine. I say if you feed a pelleted diet, feed suncoast. If you want a sample of the insectivore fare shoot me a pm or email. This is a great diet if fed right and offers a little more variety in my opinion.

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#44136 - 04/26/05 08:05 AM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with JenJen that gliders are either prone to it or not, look at humans - some people get tooth absesses all the time and some haven't had a single one all their life (me!!), I have a friend that's fed cat food for over 10 years and also a pellet called Zoo diet A (don't know if you can get it in the US) - they're basically a VERY hard pellet - much harder and larger than the pelleted diets and cat food and he hasn't had a single case of lumpy jaw. I think that maybe (and it is just my thought) that the immune system of the glider prone to lumpy jaw may be less healthy than that of a glider that isn't prone (does that make sense?), which does relate to diet but not necessarily the hardness of the diet.

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#44137 - 04/26/05 09:11 AM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ozzi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This was AWESOME guys! This is exactly the type of posts I wanted to see and read!

Mostly what I wanted was proof of the whole "Hard food causes lumpy jaw" theory. So far that claim has not been supported at all. At this point I would deduce this down to a rumor.

-Lumpy Jaw is caused by bacteria, built up in the salivary glads.
-It is not necessarily caused by hard food, but seems to depend a great deal on the glider!

Awesome. I think we just dispelled one heck of a myth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> One that was bugging the BeJesus out of me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Nihm (04/26/05 09:13 AM)

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#44138 - 04/26/05 09:19 AM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ozzi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have heard many different theories on this myself. Some say the having a hard food can cause scratches in the glider's mouth allowing infection, which could be a contributing factor; I have heard that head shape can influence it (though it was speculation); I have heard genetics can make a glider more prone to getting LJ.

The stories I heard most regarding LJ the gliders had soft diets not hard. I think that while all of these may be at least partially true or contribute to the problem in some way we really don't know much about it.

I say if you find that there is a pellet diet that you find to meet your needs then you should use it. Any pellet diet I have seen always advises to feed fruit/veggies with the diet and so you will have the soft/hard mixture just with that.

I have also heard people argue that the glider will get bored with the diet as they will be eating the same thing every day. Well, yes we humans get tired of the same thing every day but we all feed our other pets the same food every day and don't have a problem with it, so why should our gliders really be any different? You can provide variety with fruit and veggies if you want to.

Anyway, I think that if you find a pellet diet that you feel comfortable feeding and the nutrients are there then you should feed it and don't let anyone change your mind based on their opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#44139 - 04/26/05 02:19 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks Jennifer!

I think they would get bored with any diet... I feed BML and right now and that's the same every night, it just varies what I mix into it.

I have a few different pellets that I am going to try out. We'll see how it goes.

THANKS!

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#44140 - 04/26/05 03:25 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
How the myth got started! A few years ago one of the prominent members would feed pelleted food to one of her gliders when she was traveling. Seems every time she fed it the gliders jaw would swell up. She assumed that the hard pelleted food was causing lumpy jaw. Actually it was in a way but the real problem was that the glider had a bad tooth and the hard food irritated it. This got the myth started that pelleted food causes lumpy jaw. But the whole story was not being told and it became accepted that the pelleted food was a potential hazard to all gliders.

Other than having a concern over the 'true nutritional value' of commercial foods there are other reasons to be concerned with feeding hard dry foods to gliders. First the gliders mix saliva with their food before swallowing it. If you notice they will suck the inside out of peas, corn, etc. and leave the outside. Even with the BML they will suck out the juices and spit out little half moon left overs. This would be a concern of mine about feeding dry food to a glider. Also there is the danger of intestinal compaction if the gliders food does not have enough moisture.

If I were going to feed dry pellets I would mix enough liquid with it to soften the food. But then you will have to rotate it every few hours to prevent spoilage. Plus you will wonder exactly how much nutrition the glider is actually getting from the pellets.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#44141 - 04/26/05 04:04 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for that post Charlie!

Here is a post that I posted a while ago on Lumpy Jaw. There is no proof that hard foods cause lumpy jaw. Actually, most cases of lumpy jaw, the glider is on a soft food diet. Alteast this is what I have found.

http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/sh...&PHPSESSID=

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#44142 - 04/26/05 04:12 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow! Thanks Charlie! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />I was really curious where it all came from.
I agree with your hard food concerns, but combined with fruits and veggies and slushies, wouldn't you "think" that would be enough moisture? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Jessie for the extra post! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Your looking for the same info I am.
The link posted earlier about lumpy jaw says it is actually caused from a bacteria found in DIRT... I don't think our gliders get dirt very often, lol.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />This is an awesome thread guys, I'm glad we are getting this one out in the open. Hopfully it can make those diet decisions easier.... I know I too listened to everyone else about lumpy jaw and hard food.... I'm very much rethinking my diet at this point.


Edited by Nihm (04/26/05 04:26 PM)

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#44143 - 04/26/05 05:39 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered



I've tried to do some total volume comparisons to see exactly how much real FOOD my gliders get from their hard food. I'm not saying it was scientific, but I measured the volume of the food I placed in the bowl (dry) and the volume of "leftovers", removing actual leftovers from the equation. At least 2/3, more like 3/4 of the food was eaten and the moons were moist, so I'm sure some of it was water and glider saliva.

I'd like to see somebody do a true controlled-environment experiment to see how much of the food is actually found in those moons. Alot of people categorize them as bites that have been "sucked dry", but I'm pretty sure gliders actually consume food solids. They seem to keep the gritty or woody parts and spit those out.

--fje

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#44144 - 04/27/05 09:49 AM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree, you don't see them suck dry a cricket and spit it out... my guys just inhale them, no crumbs involved. I would agree that they must consume SOME solids.... sucking everything dry doesn't make sense to me either.

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#44145 - 04/27/05 01:01 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have watched my gliders eating the yogies that I give them and they actually chew them and then swallow. I know there isn't typically any little "moons" left over when dealing with yogurt but they also do not spit anything back out. They do not appear to me to be sucking or swishing anything in their mouths.
Anyway, I have also fed a variety of diets in my search for one that is healthy and works for me and my gliders. They have had a pellet diet both dry and soaked and while they preferred it soaked they did not seem to have a problem eating it dry. The biggest difference I have noticed with them is that the more moisture in their food the less water they drink from their water bottle.

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#44146 - 04/27/05 07:01 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
One thing I have noticed among the rescue we have taken in that were on pelleted food. They usually have a yellowish tint to the fur on the stomachs and usually have a strong oder. After being put on the BML diet for six to eight weeks the oder diminishes and the fur on the stomach turns white. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#44147 - 04/28/05 01:19 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good observation Charlie! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
So my question would be: Were they recieving a daily dose of vitamins along with their pelleted food before they came to you? Especially considering they are rescues, they may not have had a good diet (pelleted or not) before they came to your home. So just the fact that BML has vitamins in it could account for better fur and less smell.

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#44148 - 04/28/05 01:33 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


All my gliders are on the suncoast diet and the only yellow bellies are stained ones.. after I clean them with a cloth they are as white as can be.

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#44149 - 04/28/05 04:51 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Since it is against the board rules to diet bash guess all I can say about the pelleted food that we have had most problems with has been around for a long time. It was usually not fed with any added supplements and usually with very few fresh fruits or vegetables. My experience with most people who feed the dried diets is that they do not have or want to take the time to prepare the other diets for their gliders. Quiet often the dry diets are fed by college students who do not have the facilities in their dorm to feed much of anything else. And of course there are the people who are just looking for an easy fix.

Although I do not feel that dry diets are proper for gliders I also do not like feeding only dry dog food to my dogs. But if you ask most any vet they will tell you the dry dog food is better for the dog than canned food or table scraps. So when you get right down to it feeding dry food is a matter of personal choice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#44150 - 04/28/05 05:01 PM Re: Cases of Lumpy Jaw & Pelleted food discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Awesome response Charlie! Thank you for being respectful.
I would also assume, like you, that a lot of the time when a pelleted diet is fed people neglect vitamins and fresh foods.... thus one of the problems/reasons for pelleted food getting a bad rap perhaps.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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