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#44643 - 05/01/05 07:37 AM Fad Diets
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Because of some of the posts I have made about diets in the past there are members who have made the statement that I am closed minded to any new ideas. This is not true. What I am opposed to is the experimenting with sugar glider diets based on junk science or information furnished by a manufacturer trying to market their product. When the only research you can find on a products value is based primarily on the manufacturers claims it naturally makes me suspicious. My interest is in the health of the sugar gliders and not in promoting any diet.

I do not feel that it is proper to promote unproven products and dietary ideas on the boards. Far too many glider owners are willing to jump at the idea of a new diet or product with very little knowledge of what the effects could be to their gliders. As has been seen in some of the recent posts members are willing to start using a product that even the original poster admits they do not know exactly how to use. Also wanting to start using a diet when the complete diet hasn’t even been posted. This type of action is not in the best interest of the sugar gliders.

There are those who advocate using certain items that are considered to be a part of the wild glider diet without taking into consideration that the wild diet is seasonal and no one knows how much of these items should be a part of the captive gliders diet. If individuals wish to experiment with items in their sugar gliders diet it is a personal choice but they should not encourage others to do the same without knowing what the end results are going to be.

So when I come on a little strong about some of the new ideas it is not that I am closed minded. It is simply that I am thinking of the welfare of the sugar gliders and do not like to see a mass movement into an unknown area. Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Let’s leave the dietary studies to the professionals and stick with the things that have been proven to work for captive gliders. No one has all the answers to the needs of captive gliders but at least we have moved into a range that has eliminated a lot of the dietary problems of the past. As responsible glider owners we should stick with one of the proven diets until proper research indicates changes need to be made.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#44644 - 05/01/05 08:39 AM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bra-vo Charlie. If you have never read " Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah" , at the end of the Messiah Handbook it says
'Everythig in this book may be wrong.'
I agree, it takes a long time and a lot of mistakes to sow how things work symbiotically, and by that time the environment may have changed and your work is now invalid! To quote someone I don't know who,

"Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity"

Nature prevails, as always.

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#44645 - 05/01/05 12:35 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What I am opposed to is the experimenting with sugar glider diets based on junk science or information furnished by a manufacturer trying to market their product.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

While I agree with you on the point that just because a *new idea* comes along, I have to disagree with you in regards to speaking about the High Protein Wombaroo, as it has been used in Australia for years now and researched by professionals there for the well being and good health of animals there, including sugar gliders.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
My interest is in the health of the sugar gliders and not in promoting any diet.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I think this statement is true for all of us, as none of us earn any money off the products we choose to feed. I haven’t seen one manufacturer of diets (that earn money off it) come here to GC and say you should feed their diet because they feel and think it is the best for gliders.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I do not feel that it is proper to promote unproven products and dietary ideas on the boards.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Once again, I agree with you on this statement. However, once again, speaking of the High Protein Wombaroo (as I am sure this is what brought this post about) it is not an unproven product and has been very beneficial with the rehabilitation and health in gliders that are captive in Australia. At any time, if you do a search ( I always use google) and pull up Australian zoos and vet written articles that focus on the health and well being of gliders it is the high protein products that they use in their leadbeaters mix.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As has been seen in some of the recent posts members are willing to start using a product that even the original poster admits they do not know exactly how to use.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I am not understanding how you can state that the original poster admits to not knowing how to use this product. I do believe the comment was “before switching your glider to this diet, please talk it over with your veterinarian” in almost all of the posts that were made.

Because one does not post all that they feed does not mean they do not know how to use it. I may be mistaken, but I do believe people were just asking about the product itself, and not what all goes with it.(which yes, could be a problem)

I will agree with you that one should know the whole diet and its contents before one is wanting to use it, but we do not know how many people just pm for further details. I say this because, I myself, have received many pms asking more about the diet and what all it entails at which point I will try to answer the best to my ability as we all do with any diet or I will refer them to the original poster of it so she may go more into depth on the subject. I agree with her though, one should contact your veterinarian and that is prior to changing from any diet to another.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
If individuals wish to experiment with items in their sugar gliders diet it is a personal choice but they should not encourage others to do the same without knowing what the end results are going to be.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


I agree it is a personal choice, but once again I must come in and state, that at no time has it been “encouraged” for others to stop feeding their current diet and feed this one. It has been stated over and over to speak to your veterinarian first, yet that statement seems to be overlooked by many.
As for not knowing the end result, we don’t know the end result for any of our gliders unfortunately. Yes, there are some diets that really improve the quality of life for gliders and have bounced them back to health, yet there are other gliders that have used the same diet plan and did not wind up with the same result. I believe that is true in anything and/or everything we do.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Let’s leave the dietary studies to the professionals and stick with the things that have been proven to work for captive gliders.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Once again, this product HAS been studied by professionals, unfortunately, it is just not professionals here in the states. Hopefully that can change though, if we all contact our vets when questions of this sort comes into play. That is the only way we will ever get the professionals involved here, unless some multi-millionaire decides to give us a few million for research.

The questions I have, are these…

1) if we still had high protein baby cereal available, would there have even been new diets developed ?

2) If so, would they be encouraged to be used seeing as how the professionals in Australia originally stated to use the leadbeaters?

3) If it were just the high protein baby cereal that we were missing from the original leadbeaters, now that the high protein wombaroo has come in the picture, why so fast to shoot it down without first researching all aspects of it yourself first, so you may share some of the down points you, personally, may find in it.


I do not recommend for anyone to start a new diet plan without first researching all fields of it that you can and than going over it with your veterinarian. I for one, have an appointment with my vet to go over the differences between three different diets. Happy Glider, BML and High Protein Wombaroo, and I will ask his advice and his opinion on these three diet plans after giving him all the ingredients in each one.
I will be sure to let you all know what his thoughts are.

For any who would like to read on the posts I am discussing here please go to
Pockets Modified Leadbeats I

And

Pockets Modified Leadbeaters II


Edited by Dancing (05/02/05 08:07 PM)
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#44646 - 05/01/05 01:50 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well put Peggy... I have to say that I thought Pocket's post was informative and I look forward to seeing people's results with her diet. I, at no time, felt pushed to use the Wombaroo in my own gliders' diet.

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#44647 - 05/01/05 01:59 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What I am opposed to is the experimenting with sugar glider diets based on junk science or information furnished by a manufacturer trying to market their product

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> What manufacturer has entered this forum and entertained us with junk science? People have brought up certain products made by manufacturers, but none were backed by junk science. I suppose if one were not to understand the concepts, or care to delve deeper into the issues to figure them out, the n they might seem like "junk science"

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
There are those who advocate using certain items that are considered to be a part of the wild glider diet without taking into consideration that the wild diet is seasonal and no one knows how much of these items should be a part of the captive gliders diet. If individuals wish to experiment with items in their sugar gliders diet it is a personal choice but they should not encourage others to do the same without knowing what the end results are going to be.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
It seems to me like ideas get brought up, and people discuss them, and make their own personal decisions. It seems to me like someone is trying to make up people's minds for them by encouraging them not to experiment or try things "unproven" It could go both ways. As for diets "proven" They've only been around long enough for people to just start seeing what the end results are. So, I don't really think with absolute clarity one can say without a doubt that the "proven" path is absolutely without flaws or potential problems. I'd say that incorporating natural items that have been "proven" and consumed by gliders for millenia is fairly reasonable. I don't think it's any less reasonable than feeding chicken babyfood or yogurt or items which gliders would never ever have a mild possibility of encountering in the wild in any habitat or island or any one of the variety of places that they exist that one may claim our gliders didn't even descend from anyways.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As responsible glider owners we should stick with one of the proven diets until proper research indicates changes need to be made.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Proper research by whom?
My "junk science" watched my gliders start to wither away from not eating and reject joeys on "proven" diets. So, research indicated to me that changes needed to be made. That's a decision I made as a responsible glider owner, I did what I thought was best for my gliders, and thus far it has gone beautifully and far better than with "proven" diets.

Bottom line, when people have a "new" idea, or are opposed to a new idea, they shouldn't have to keep it to themselves. This is a forum......
The point of it's existence is to convene to discuss ideas.
We need to keep good attitudes and not come in with negative attitudes and call ideas "gibberish" "foolish" "illogical" just because they aren't in terms comprehensible to common folk....

I took it took personal offense when I saw someone who I have a great deal of respect for have to ask for a thread to be closed because it was starting to go wrong. This person took every precaution to bring up the ideas well and positively, and it went beautifully until negative comments were made.

As far as I'm concerned, Pockets has gone to far greater lengths to compile glider info and to do positive things for captive gliders than anyone that I can think of. It truly upset me to see her have to ask for her thread to be closed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

And also, I agree, well put Peggy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />


Edited by gliderdad79 (05/01/05 02:06 PM)

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#44648 - 05/01/05 02:19 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Well said Peggy and Ernie. If it wasn't for trial and error and experimenting, we wouldn't have the diets that all of us use for our gliders today right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#44649 - 05/01/05 02:39 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/01
Posts: 4049
Loc: Doniphan Mo
I am really sorry Pockets chose to close the topic after a little criticism. A good diet can certainly withstand that. Just look at the history of BML. I'm an avid fan of BML but was following the PML post with interest. Sometimes peoples passions get in the way and I would say there are many passionate people on both sides of this fence. Please lets be respectful of each other's opinions and beliefs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />

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#44650 - 05/01/05 02:53 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, Ernie & Peggy pretty much have expressed my sentiments - I just wanted to say that we should never be afraid of change. Pockets has sent Peggy & I on a whirlwind of research & I am confident that there are better ways to feed our gliders - and once we find that better way, someone will come along with an even better way than that. All I'm saying is that we should spend our time researching to help improve the diets, not to discredit them. The latter just seems like such a waste. If you see a problem, don't attack - offer a solution! We're all here for the gliders, and a better diet is only going to benefit them.

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#44651 - 05/01/05 03:00 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/01
Posts: 4049
Loc: Doniphan Mo
It isn't a fear of change, it's just wanting to make sure everything is right before you make the change. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#44652 - 05/01/05 04:17 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Part I have a problem with is... "Consult with your vet with a dietary change.) Most vets have no idea as to the needed requirements of a good diet to maintaining a healthy sugar glider in the first place.

From my experience with vets....most are not knowledgeable with the diet of a Sugar Glider and will refer to the Leadbeaters diet which has been outdated for years due to requirement of High Protein Cereal having been banned years ago....as well as not enough calcium in it.


Edited by Judie (05/01/05 04:19 PM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#44653 - 05/01/05 04:17 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not upset or angered by this thread. It's actually nice to see that there is at least passion when it comes to dealing with our gliders, regardless of what stance is taken on an issue or debate. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But what may have been a tad bit offensive was... well, the words "junk science" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> It's that word again... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> It seems to pop up every time we "non-scientist" glider pet owners attempt to present, evaluate and assess, calculate, clarify, or make sense of the science of anything (e.g. "The Comparison b/n Vitamins" thread, past threads on new diets, and now this one...), as if no significant degree of valid input can be acheived by common people of the pet glider community that may not be decorated with "academic papers" or have the letters "DR" before their name! Through history, some of the most profound things were founded and established by everyday, ordinary people (there are real Forest Gumps). Perhaps we should choose our words wisely, as mentioned. Let's not discredit people's intellect nor undermine people's quest for knowledge and truth with some purposely harsh words and syntax.

The science presented thusfar in regards to this topic has been rather objective and I'm glad to see that the majority sees that, even if the science may be somewhat complex.

Any diet begins as a potential "fad" diet, including the ones we now call "proven", but as mentioned in the other thread, even the word "proven" applies only to a certain degree.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#44654 - 05/01/05 04:36 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Well said Peggy and Ernie. If it wasn't for trial and error and experimenting, we wouldn't have the diets that all of us use for our gliders today right

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

You might also mention if it were not for the error part of the 'trial and error' we would not have near as many gliders that we have taken in with health problems because of improper diets.

As far as manufacturers promoting their products on this site, I have to agree that they do not. But the members regularly post statements from the manufacturers and use their promos. as a basis for their research.

I do not have a problem with a group getting together throuch PMs or emails to discuss experimenting with new items to add into the glider diet. And as was mentioned consulting with your vet. But keep in mind that the opinion of one vet is only that. 'The opinion of one vet' and not many vets know or agree on glider diets. The problem with bringing some of these experimental discussions to an open board are that there are too many people who are inexperienced with glider diets and are willing to jump onto any new idea.

I did not bring up the subject of Wombaroo Milk but since Peggy felt it was a part of this thread I will state that many years ago we tried using it. We experimented with Wombaroo Milk as a way of saving rejected joeys. We were never able to save the first rejected joey with it. We eventually started using the Baby BML and have had great success. I am not bashing or promoting but just telling you what we discovered through experience.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#44655 - 05/01/05 04:45 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As far as manufacturers promoting their products on this site, I have to agree that they do not. But the members regularly post statements from the manufacturers and use their promos. as a basis for their research.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

If you're referring to Pocket's reference (in Part 1) from Womberoo regarding protein requirements in gliders, then I'd like to point out that I did post afterwards (in Part 2), for matters of biases, the reference from Marsupial Nutrition that verified the Womberoo statements, presented by Pockets.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#44656 - 05/01/05 05:18 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You might also mention if it were not for the error part of the 'trial and error' we would not have near as many gliders that we have taken in with health problems because of improper diets.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> What you are dealing with in regards to the gliders that have to be taken in is more likely attributed to ignorance and misinformation. It may be a form of trial and error, but what you are referring to probably had absolutely no research or information to back it. Your experiences are just yours, just as the opinion of one vet is just that of one vet.

I don't think that we should have to get together through pms just to make one happy, this is everyone's forum to use within the confines of the rules and popular opinion seems to be in support of collaborating on and positively expressing opinions on diet among other subjects through the use of the public forum function.

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#44657 - 05/01/05 05:21 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with Mikey, the use of the term "junk science" is somewhat insulting to the intelligence of other glider keepers who, despite not holding a degree from a university, are pouring over data trying their best to make sense of exactly what the information means. Some of the most intelligent people I have met are those who had the interest and passion enough about a subject to seek out the information on their own and educate themselves.

This being a forum where a very large percentage of us are in search of knowledge and are interested in exploring all avenues of thought and are taking into consideration the fact that, honestly, we are all still learning about these creatures and their needs in captivity. That being said I would be loathe seeing an elitist attitude towards the "non-scientist" crop up as individuals share information of what has worked for their gliders.

I really do enjoy seeing all of the information that is shared between people in all facets of glider care and I look forward to seeing the discussion regarding diet open up and hearing more of what others have had success with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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#44658 - 05/01/05 05:46 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I have thus far stayed out of these threads because well, I don't have the knoweledge that Pockets has gained in her research. Nor do I have the experiences Charlie has gained with all the rescues he has saved. I applaud both for their work and see both as important.

I contacted Pockets through pm to discuss diet with her. I explained what I feed my gliders and that I have fed them this way for over 6 years. I do not advocate my diet because I do not have the scientific (even self taught "junk scientific") background to say "this is a proven diet". All I can do is relate my experience with my diet. While my diet has had just the best results possible for my gliders, I am always open to new information. Whether or not I incorporate that into my diet or not is dictated to me as what sounds reasonable. During my discussion with Pockets, she said basically, if it is working for me, don't change things. Well, I am still an amature at gliders. My oldest glider is between 7 and 8 years old (he was a rescue). I have 11 gliders right now (counting the joey). I have had 14 joeys born in my house including triplets, twins and singles and have never had one rejected or canabalized nor have I ever had a sick glider nor have I ever had one die. This could be either to my diet I feed or just plain dumb luck.
I think discussion about different diet items or ideas should be discussed and openly so that we can avoid "fad" diets that could harm our little furries. Just as we discuss whether or not gliders should have citrus or not.
Each owner/slave has the obligation and responsiblity of researching ANY diet and making the choice we feel is best for our little friends. It is no different then what brand dog food we choose to feed our canines.

I am very happy to see discussions on diet but I do ask that we keep it all mature and open minded. We have a great community here and as a community, we need to continue discussing diets so we can all learn.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#44659 - 05/01/05 07:08 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
One of the major problems with diet discussions is that they have gotten to the point that they are one sided. If a person starts a thread about a diet or suppliment it is fine as long as you respond with something positive. But if it is a diet or suppliment that a person finds fault with and they post to that effect they are considered by some to be a narrow minded diet basher. When actually all the person is trying to do is protect the sugar gliders from being given experimental items and products. Look at how many people were willing to give their gliders one of the newer vitamins without even knowing what was in it. There were people touting this vitamin supplement on the board and they did not have the slightest idea what its contets were. This is not responsible glider care.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#44660 - 05/01/05 07:19 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I did not bring up the subject of Wombaroo Milk but since Peggy felt it was a part of this thread I will state that many years ago we tried using it. We experimented with Wombaroo Milk as a way of saving rejected joeys. We were never able to save the first rejected joey with it. We eventually started using the Baby BML and have had great success. I am not bashing or promoting but just telling you what we discovered through experience.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This statement implies a belief that Wambaroo MILK is an ingredient in Pockets' diet. If I am correct in this, perhaps this is the reason you do not agree with it's incorporation. It is not the milk replacer that has replaced the High Protien Baby Cereal in the original Leadbeaters mix - it is Wambaroo High Protien Supplement, a completely different product.

I would also like to add that the Taronga Zoo in Australia is still using the original Leadbeater's Mix with the incorporation of the Wambaroo HPS along with other components in their glider's diet, and IMO, the best place to learn about animals is from their native countrymen.

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#44661 - 05/01/05 07:22 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />

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#44662 - 05/01/05 07:32 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
One of the major problems with diet discussions is that they have gotten to the point that they are one sided

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
But if it is a diet or suppliment that a person finds fault with and they post to that effect they are considered by some to be a narrow minded diet basher

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> True, but there is such a thing as positive criticism and negative criticism. It would be nice to turn the negative into a positive discussion were everyone can be open minded, and possibly improve any diet.
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

Top
#44663 - 05/01/05 08:50 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Carrie, you stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I am really sorry Pockets chose to close the topic after a little criticism. A good diet can certainly withstand that.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I am really saddened that it was asked to be closed as well, however, it is not due to the criticism that was given, but the fact that it was becoming a flaming topic and that is not going to be beneficial to any of us nor our gliders, so best thing to do is close the thread and avoid conflict.

Judie: you stated,

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Part I have a problem with is... "Consult with your vet with a dietary change.) Most vets have no idea as to the needed requirements of a good diet to maintaining a healthy sugar glider in the first place.



<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I could not agree with you more, however, there are some of us out there that do have vets that are very capable of doing the research and finding accurate information to help us out.
I do agree there are not enough knowledgeable exotic vets in the states, but as we know there are indeed some.

Mikey you stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Any diet begins as a potential "fad" diet, including the ones we now call "proven", but as mentioned in the other thread, even the word "proven" applies only to a certain degree.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Bingo! With each new thing, it has to be started somewhere, by someone, doing something. But may I also point out, this particular High Protein Wombaroo has been used for YEARS, just like several of the other *proven* diets.

Charlie you stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
But keep in mind that the opinion of one vet is only that. 'The opinion of one vet' and not many vets know or agree on glider diets.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

True statement, however, if each of us that DO have a well educated vet in the exotic (sugar glider) field asked them to at least go over the information and ingredients of different diets and give their educated advice on this, maybe just maybe, something new and positive could come together. Instead of always being pessimistic right off about a new thing that comes onto the board, do some research on it, and than, if something negative is found from a factual study, post it and let us all learn about it together, just as we do with the positive things.
I remember a while back, your alarm while using honey. You did the research on it, brought forth much good information and helped educate on honey and the botulism scare that was around at that time. Same thing here, find the facts about this product from a study that was done, and share….or find the positive and share that.
Each side of the coin can be very beneficial to each of us, as long as it is approached in the right manner.

As for the rescues you get, I have to agree with what was stated.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What you are dealing with in regards to the gliders that have to be taken in is more likely attributed to ignorance and misinformation. It may be a form of trial and error, but what you are referring to probably had absolutely no research or information to back it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

And

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
This statement implies a belief that Wambaroo MILK is an ingredient in Pockets' diet. If I am correct in this, perhaps this is the reason you do not agree with it's incorporation. It is not the milk replacer that has replaced the High Protien Baby Cereal in the original Leadbeaters mix - it is Wambaroo High Protien Supplement, a completely different product.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I can totally understand and respect the fear that must cross your minds when someone talks of a new product or a new diet due to all the rescues that you two take in on a daily basis. I also applaud and commend the both of you for doing that along with the other rescues out there, however, with that being said…once again we are talking about something that is not a new diet nor a new product that has been brought to light here. It is something that has been included in many rescue operations in Australia. Some of the rescue stories that I have read about there are way worse than some that we see here. And than again, there are some that are not as bad. So once again that goes to both sides of the coin.

Big Ern Stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I don't think that we should have to get together through pms just to make one happy, this is everyone's forum to use within the confines of the rules and popular opinion seems to be in support of collaborating on and positively expressing opinions on diet among other subjects through the use of the public forum function.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I could not agree with you more. If these kind of discussions were kept to pm’s or emails and THAN brought to the board and people were than encouraging and pushing a new diet, I would hate to see what would happen than! It would be a total uproar for sure.

Charlie you also stated:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
One of the major problems with diet discussions is that they have gotten to the point that they are one sided. If a person starts a thread about a diet or suppliment it is fine as long as you respond with something positive. But if it is a diet or suppliment that a person finds fault with and they post to that effect they are considered by some to be a narrow minded diet basher

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I have to disagree to a certain extent on this one. Once again, if there is factual fault with something that a person posts, than by all means it is accepted. I think the problem lies in the idea of one automatically discrediting a new idea or possibility that there is something else out there without having any proof to why they feel this way. And unfortunately this is how the rumor mills start and next thing you know things such as *feeding dry food causes lumpy jaw* comes in play, when we all now know that it is not a proven thing at all, but is proven that it can increase the chances of this to happen.

I think if we are all willing to work together as a team to find BOTH the good and the bad (with facts, not opinions) in diets, toys, habitat or any other thing that our gliders can benefit from it will do nothing but increase the longevity and the happiness of our gliders.

I say lets go forth and conquer TOGETHER!!
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#44664 - 05/01/05 08:58 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Can't we all just get along <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Like Peggy said, there has been valide points on both sides. Now if we can weigh out each side there might be a good outcome. We are all after the same thing, Whats best for our gliders, and honestly, I don't know if there is anyone out there that knows what is best for them. Thats why discussions like these are beneficial in the quest to find what is best for our beloved gliders <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#44665 - 05/01/05 09:09 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


With all of that being said I'm going to be rather <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> now and say that this forum certainly does need people like Charlie, questioning, critiquing, identifying weaknesses/problems with, and dissecting any new precepts, ideas, or attitudes presented in the forum. I find it balances the forum out and establishes an equilibrium around here. The right scientific attitude and approach to anything always does require even a healthy amount of skepticism.

So, Charlie please do keep posting where you feel fit. Your experiences and thinking are an asset to the forum, and that goes for anyone finding that they may be part of a minority in stance!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#44666 - 05/01/05 09:15 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
this forum certainly does need people like Charlie, questioning, critiquing, identifying weaknesses/problems with, and dissecting any new precepts, ideas, or attitudes presented in the forum. I find it balances the forum out and establishes an equilibrium around here. The right scientific attitude and approach to anything always does require even a healthy amount of skepticism.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Mikey I couldn't agree with you more on this. That is how good solutions are made!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> Now there is negative critiquing on any reaserch done. Its when it is turned into a positive negative critiquing, that things get worked out!!!


Edited by gliderdad79 (05/01/05 09:20 PM)
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

Top
#44667 - 05/01/05 09:59 PM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
this forum certainly does need people like Charlie, questioning, critiquing, identifying weaknesses/problems with, and dissecting any new precepts, ideas, or attitudes presented in the forum. I find it balances the forum out and establishes an equilibrium around here. The right scientific attitude and approach to anything always does require even a healthy amount of skepticism.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Mikey I couldn't agree with you more on this. That is how good solutions are made!!! Now there is negative critiquing on any reaserch done. Its when it is turned into a positive negative critiquing, that things get worked out!!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I agree with both of you guys here. If we could all keep the criticisms positive, then things would work much better. Though I'm certainly not the most tactful person and sometimes get a bit brash, I've certainly learned by watching others communicate(like Mikey, who should be a diplomat as far as I'm concerned, lol), that certain points are much better heard when a specific tone and tact is used.

I also agree that Charlie's ideas, whether I agree with them or not, are still to be appreciated because both sides of an issue should be explored thoroughly.

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#44668 - 05/02/05 12:18 AM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...So, Charlie please do keep posting where you feel fit. Your experiences and thinking are an asset to the forum, and that goes for anyone finding that they may be part of a minority in stance...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Problem is, Mikey that a lot of people don’t agree with you. On a regular basis, when Charlie makes a comment or asks a "hard" question, someone takes offense and accuses him of bashing and someone else complains about having his or her feelings hurt. Then his post disappears or the thread gets closed. Mikey, the idea of fair, open, two-sided discussions is a nice one in theory; but the fact is that it doesn't always happen in actual practice.

There is no doubt that some threads get a little out of hand and there is certainly a need for GC to exert some control over their content; but it's not terribly uncommon for legitimate discussions to be terminated early, not because of where they are; but because of where they might go.

If I posted a new glider diet, tomorrow, based on a special food supplement that I was importing from Indonesia that was manufactured to sustain captive gliders on their native island, I guarantee you that my email box would be full of requests for information on how the get the supplement. Most would be from rookie glider owners and very few would ask for any proof that the diet was any good, just how to get it. Charlie recognizes and understands this peculiarity of human nature and does his best to see that the most vulnerable glider owners are informed about new diets before they head off in the wrong direction……or at least he tries, when permitted.

Just because Pockets has done a lot of investigation and reading on gliders and glider diets does not make her immune from having to defend any ideas that she might offer to the general public. Knowledgeable people, even experts, in any field of endeavor are not infallible and have, in my opinion, the obligation to defend any ideas that they present. Had more questions been asked of the "experts" at NASA, the seven Challenger astronauts might still be alive today!!

It is always good to have new ideas proposed. I’m glad Pockets started her thread on the subject of Wombaroo HPS and I’m sorry that she felt the need to request its closure. It’s good to have new ideas; but not all new ideas are good!! The only way we can determine the quality of an idea is by asking questions and having discussion. Pockets, herself said.”… Ian Humes excellent works, they have been available for many many years….until others wish to look for credible answers - they will remain uneducated in the diet issues…I am very surprised others have not ventured & looked to the experts in marsupial nutrition - very sad indeed…” Pockets needs to understand that most glider owners cannot afford to spend the many dollars that she has to stock their own personal glider libraries nor do most have the time to spend hundreds of hour on the Internet researching information that may be a little over their head, anyway. For many, GC is their only source of glider information and to close this thread because there was some controversy deprives many people of information that they have no other realistic method of obtaining. I am going to open Part 3 of the PML discussion, primarily because there are still some unanswered questions. I certainly hope Pockets will continue to offer us the benefit of her knowledge in this area; but, if she declines, we will do our best without her.

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#44669 - 05/02/05 12:45 AM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL it's understandable. I personally have a lot of trust in Pockets based from personal correspondence. I really appreciate her objectivity (sorry I think I've said that so many times already), and I'm sure she will have no problem explaining or addressing any questions, concerns, and inquiries.

With regards to Charlie, I for one have come to learn to appreciate the posts that are intrinsically "Charlie", and I almost look forward to them now. Charlie, it seems your stronger set posts almost always lead to a massive discussion (Yes, I'll call it that) where various individuals are compelled to pitch in opinions and views and facts, and it's the splendor of glider forum knowledge and communication at its prime!!!

Anyway, I love seeing that little flame icon beside the thread topics, especially in the diet threads because it almost always indicates that the thread contains a wealth of invaluable info, which without the initial posts of people like Charlie or others that tend to naturally stimulate involved convo wouldn't have otherwise come about in the same manner... it's like a match to a dynamite... the explosions of posts are so much fun to read though and quite stimulating to say the least!

I think the concern with most folks though is sensitivity to feelings and proper language. It does suck to suddenly discover the EDIT/REPLY/QUOTE/QUICK REPLY options gone from the right hand corners of posts in a thread, and to see the emergence of the little padlock icon...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#44670 - 05/02/05 12:45 AM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
The only way we can determine the quality of an idea is by asking questions and having discussion.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This is true, but the problem is that people take their "job" of questioning a bit too seriously and make their line of questioning sound harsh and condescending. The vibe oftens turns from friendly to defensive when people start questioning in a rude and belittling way. There is a way to positively dissect and discuss an issue without having to make someone feel like they need to be on the defense.

Sure, if a concept is sound, defending it should be simple right? But too often people nitpick and spend more time trying to find any little thing wrong, as irrelevant(or not) as it might be, to try and engage a debate and discredit an idea.

Lately I've seen arguments arise oddly because someone wasn't able to digest or decipher the info presented, or because someone hadn't read a specific book and questioned the authority of sources of info.

If you want to, you can find something wrong with anything, it doesn't take an extraordinary amount of genius. If you really want to help something progress, then your intentions will be abundantly clear. People aren't getting offended or bothered for no reason.......

"Hard" questioning isn't positive or conducive to a working environment, rather, it makes the environment hostile and stagnant, so I personally see no reason it should be defended.

Some people need to read certain books before they comment on the content of those books. I'm by no means a rich man, and I managed to squeeze $45 out of my pocket to buy Ian Humes book. If glider information is important to a person, they should have no problem finding the money. I've even offered to lend it to a number of people, postage included. It's worth it. I think that this would eliminate a large amount of debates and misunderstandings.

If one wants to debate diet, why wouldn't they make sure they're as well read as they can be? If the knowledge isn't at hand, seek it. If they don't, it must not mean that much....so why even debate?

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#44671 - 05/02/05 01:08 AM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#44672 - 05/02/05 01:37 AM Re: Fad Diets [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Yes research shows that captive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diets should be changed seasonally!

Why don't you take a second look at this so-called junk science -
Brian Rich

Wombaroo products as well as Wombaroo High Protein Supplement are & have been fed to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s in CAPTIVITY. as well as many other mammals in many Zoos across the nation - Wombaroo has been in business for over 25 years.

As for Ian Hume - Marsupial Nutrition (1999)

Ian D Hume is Challis Professor of Biology at the University of Sydney. He has carried out research in the field of comparative nutrition in the USA, Germany, Sudan and Japan, as well as in Australia. His book Digestive Physiology and Nutrition of Marsupials (1982) won the Whitley Award for Best Text Book from the Royal Zoological Society of New South Wales. He has co-authered Comparative Physiology of the Vertebrate Digestive System (1993), and co-edited Possums and Gliders (1984), and Kangaroos, Wallabies and Rat-kangaroos (1989). Professor Hume is currently a managing editor of Journal of Comparative Physiology B and his research has been widely published in many international journals.


Randy - If a person cannot come up with aprox $40 to get excellent information & to learn about their exotic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diet requirements & would rather listen to people claiming that published researchers such as Brian Rich & Ian Hume's work is junk science, than they sure are not going to progress learning about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s diets.

Should we listen more to Charlie & Randy's proper diet info or more to the published researchers such as Ian Hume & Brian Rich (just to name a couple) -hummmm

Both Charlie & yourself claim that captive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> research info is not out there - why don't you two spend a little more time looking & less time being so critical of others research!

It is OUR job to teach our veterinarians or get information to them because it is us that will lose our <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s if we don't!


Edited by gliderdad79 (05/03/05 11:56 AM)

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