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#44708 - 05/02/05 01:17 AM Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] There are still a few unanswered questions related to this discussion. I have one or two myself. I hope we can keep this discussion on a level where the mods won't interfere; but if you have a question or a comment that is a little controversial, go ahead and make it. We aren't ever going to be in a situation where a subject is fully explored if we have to sugar-coat all of our input.

Just to get things rolling, I asked a question in the previous thread that has not yet received a response so let me repeat it. A formula was presented from Hume's book that is supposed to give some approximation of the daily protein requirement for a captive glider. The formula, as quoted was: 1.5g to 6g per kg -075 per day.
That formula is not of a mathematical form that I recognize as being valid and I suspect that the formula is incorrectly stated. For someone who has access to Hume's book, I would like to verify that the quoted formula is correct. And secondly, since miost of us are not real familiar with the advanced math associated with describing nutritional requirements, it would be nice if someone could simplify the issue and simply tell us what the equation suggests for a 100 gram glider?? Thanks. [/]

[:"purple"] You can find the prior installment of this discussion "HERE." [/]

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#44709 - 05/02/05 01:37 AM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Seen! I was just about to head to bed but I'll quickly add something here and continue in the morning.

Just to clarify that in the formula, the -075 is in superscript. It's an exponential value.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#44710 - 05/02/05 01:47 AM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Randy - I would suggest you email Dr Ian Hume - as you do not listen to me!
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
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#44711 - 05/02/05 02:27 AM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Please dont ask for this one to be closed too because this is one of the diets that I have been reading I dont think I have posted but I plan on switching to the PML once I dont have joeys ip.

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#44712 - 05/02/05 02:44 AM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here are the links to the other two post!!

Part One

Part Two

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#44713 - 05/02/05 05:37 AM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Winkle Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 3297
Loc: SA Australia
i am very interested in this post and diet also so please dont ask for it to be closed.

Pockets can you please answer my mail here or pm me thanks. i have pmd you.
_________________________
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4 Chooks
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5 Ducks

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#44714 - 05/02/05 08:12 AM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, I found the feild metabolic requirements of a 124 gram glider to be apx. 12.5 grams of dry and 38 grams of fresh food daily, so thats a total of about 50 grams. If these guys should have about 30%, then 15 grams of dietary protein per 125 grams of body weight???

**<scratches head and recounts figures using fingers & toes**>

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#44715 - 05/02/05 09:47 AM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Curious about where you came up with those figures. What diet would you feed that has 30% protein. Are you speaking of crude protein or usable protein? Here I go being negative again but if a diet contains fruits and vegetables along with a 'protein source' it is almost impossible to attain a 30% protein diet. This is where a lot of confusion comes in in diet discussion. There is a great difference between crude protein, usable protein, and 'protein source'.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#44716 - 05/02/05 09:57 AM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Charlie, actually I didnt see anything negative about that at all!

You are actually correct, many do not know the difference between crude protein, useable protein and a protein source. Just like the confusion between good fats and bad fats ect.

Very good point you brought to surface <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#44717 - 05/02/05 01:00 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Randy - I would suggest you email Dr Ian Hume - as you do not listen to me!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Pockets - I have read many of Randy's posts and I have never seen him attack a person who is posting or to not "listen." I think he is just looking at ALL aspects from a totally different view. He is not for or against PML he is just looking to understand it better. I have read and followed the posts and I will admit that what you have brought to the board is fantastic, I will also admit that it didn't go into a whole lot of detail and I think that is what has gotten many people confused and worried. I know that when you started the post of PML, you probably had no idea so many would want so much info...you were just offering an alternative. Try to stay calm and remember that NO ONE here is attacking you or your diet, I think that many people are worried that there will be others who are going to read the info posted and assume it is an entire diet when that isn't what you ment at all. I think you have done well, and I am sure that you will continue doing so. You shouldn't feel the need to justify yourself, as you have mentioned if it works for you and your gliders than that should be enough. The leg work, research, and time that you and your vet have put into this shows the dedication you feel towards gliders. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> Randy just seems to be the numbers guy who checks everything out and verifies a balance. Most people on this board are not opposed to change (gliders are so finicky most of the time that we are always ready to please them) they just want the whole story and not just a peek. Thanks for braving the boards and posting knowing that there might be some problems with its reception. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

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#44718 - 05/02/05 02:31 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Charlie-
I did a search for "ian hume protein" and found a link that has excerpts explaining the Feild Metabolic rate, which requires the 50 grams total daily food intake. There was also a blurb about a glider at 135 grams needing 613 joules, or about 146 calories, to maintain it's weight with the amount of energy it typacally expends in a day.

I couldn't find anything about specific kinds of protein, just several mentions of 25-30% total diet protein intake.

And of course, I'm a TELEPHONE man, and numbers scare me unless I have a nice safe stick to beat them with from a distance!

Afer reading the reports from Hume and some others folks excerpts, one of the comments struck me as important, in that the amounts of differing insects, and the amounts of saps taken during different times of the year were important to try to mimic. I'm gonna keep looking for facts on how many calories from each type of bug, and like Charlie sez, what KIND of protein ( maybe it's that pesky Protein Gigwatt!!) seems to be important. In reading the articles I get the impression that the figures they arrived at came from diagnosing the fecal matter, and that makes me think that the requirements are total crude protein, not usable...but again, I'm a phone man and prefer imaginary photon kinetics to real world stuff! I could easily misunderstand everything I read. Thats why having these threads is so important!

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#44719 - 05/02/05 02:49 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hold tight, fellow humans... currently trying to work on a post on wordpad... it's gunna get messy so I'm trying to organize it all in the best way that I can.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#44720 - 05/02/05 02:55 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


O NO THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG ONE!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

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#44721 - 05/02/05 03:05 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm gonna go start some popcorn! Thanks Mikey, I just sent an email to Dr. Hume asking him, during the Spring months, how many grams of insects and how many of sap/fruits/roots they consume.....

This is like one of those kewl treasure hunts Dad used to send us on!

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#44722 - 05/02/05 03:22 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> [:"green"]LEGEND: Follow the GREEN paragraphs for simplified explanations and interpretations of the jargon. [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Randy, Here is a little bit of info from Wombaroo

Protein Requirements:
Providing protein intake supplies adequate levels of all essential amino acids, then maintenance protein requirement for mammals ranges from about 1.5g to 6g per kg -075 per day. Protein requirement is related to the amount of energy expended. If there is no gain in body weight then energy intake can be substituted for energy expended. An average value of 6mg of protein per kj of energy intake can be used to estimate maintenance protein requirement.
For Wombaroo this translates into 90mg per kj of energy or 4g per kg -075 per day. The amount of supplement needed will depend on the protein quantity and quality in the existing diet and the species.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Ok, now referring to the Ian Humes publication *pulling out calculator*, he talks about protein requirement in terms of nitrogen retension, i.e. measured as the ratio of nitrogen retension to digestible organic matter intake.

Working with the nitrogenous concentrations when dealing with porteins is a much more accurate approach when dealing with the protein inquiries in animals and I'm assuming it is standard because Ian Humes goes fairly in depth on the subject. Anyway, protein exists in various forms, qualities, etc and is generally a generic term for a nutrient encompassing any combination of amino acids, all of which as you may know are nitrogen based (I'm too lazy to look for the chemical model but I'm sure if you run "AMINO ACID" or even "AMINO GROUP" in any search engine, you'll be able to see the arrangement of the nitrogen atom/s in the molecules). Hence, Ian Humes works with Nitrogen amounts when addressing the proteins as opposed to using the borad word "protein", and it makes sense inlight of the above. He also mentions that loss of nitrogen/protein through other means like shed hair and sloughed skin is negligible and usually ignored. Furthermore, to standardize things he speaks of what is called the maintenance protein requirement, i.e. the protein required for adult animals simply to maintain themselves (as opposed to the amount of protein for animals that are growing, lactating, in gestation, etc).

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> [:"green"]Anyway, if the above makes no sense just understand this: The scientific method that determines how much protein an animal requires is merely a measurement of the amount of protein the animal abosrbs and keeps in its body, and the way one measures that is through nitrogen amounts (which is a primary element in protein).[/]

Anyway, having said that, Randy I think what threw you off with regards to the formula was that the forumla was simplified by being partially translated into English. The formula Pockets posted provided by Womberoo is:

(1.5g - 6g) per 0.75 kg per day

which is the same as 1.5 g to 6g kg[superscript]-.75[/superscript]d[superscript]1[/superscript]. (AHHH I wish GC had a superscript function!!! Let's pretend for now...)

Now as I mentioned in one of the previous threads, it is mentioned that the above formula generally applies to not only marsupials or gliders, but to all therian mammals, i.e. all the mammals in the world, excluding the monotremes like the echidna and platypus. Protein requirments for mammals are generally consistent across the board with some factors accounting for some minor differences among species (the numbers are mostly impacted by the digestive identity type of the animal, i.e. carnivore, omnivore, herbivore).

So back to the formula. The quoted formula presented by Pockets from Womberoo is the general one (i.e. 1.5g - 6g) and the formula Ian Humes uses is in a different form:

A graph on pg 26 of Humes publication helps visualize the data. Maintenence Nitrogen retension is approximately a little over 0.2 g per 100g digestible organic matter which I simply worked out mathematically:

0.2 g / 100 g = n g / 750 g, and I simply solved for n which turns out to be 1.5 g (+) which verifies Pocket's quote.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> [:"green"]Basically, the information from Womberoo presented by Pockets and information presented by Ian Humes were consistent in regards to Nitrogen/protein requirements. They were saying the same thing.[/]

I'll try to work out more things tonight when I get back...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#44723 - 05/02/05 03:42 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL - Thanks Mikey for the GREEN passages!

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#44724 - 05/02/05 05:08 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL..Monster..I second that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />


Jackie

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#44725 - 05/02/05 05:51 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That Mikey, he's just SOOOOOOO CUTE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mikey, that's a real time-saver for me this evening (but you can bet I'll read the long version later on). Have a good evenin' up there!

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#44726 - 05/02/05 06:39 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


WHO WAS THAT MASKED MAN???!!???

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#44727 - 05/02/05 06:41 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, more numbers...

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> [:"green"]LEGEND: Refer to the GREEN for a brief interpretation of the jargon[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Well, I found the feild metabolic requirements of a 124 gram glider to be apx. 12.5 grams of dry and 38 grams of fresh food daily, so thats a total of about 50 grams.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Just out of curiosity, where did you get these numbers Shaun? I'm assuming that if they're using the term field metabolic rate then it has to be some sort of scientific reference to some degree. Anyway, if those are indeed the case, then to answer your other question, Randy as to the amount of protein that a glider requires...

We once again turn to the math:

n g of protein / 50 g of food = 1.5 (+) g of maintenance protein requirment / 750 g of food

...and we simply solve for n again, and we get 0.1 (+) g of protein, but we must remember this is a minimum requirement. This seemed to me initially as quite a small figure however once again it is a minimum figure and also accounts for protein in a "usable" form (as formerly brought to point by Charlie), seeing as protein can exist in different forms and qualities (as borught to point by Pockets earlier in the PML Part 1 thread), etc.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> [:"green"]In total, using the ShaunG's numbers that a 124 g glider consumes approximately 50 g of food daily, we can then calculate through ratios the amount of protein required daily using the formula previously presented by Pockets/Ian Humes, and it works out to a little over 0.1 g of protein daily. You must keep in mind that it is really a minimum value of 0.1 g of protein required daily and because protein can exist in different forms, including forms that aren't readily absorbable by gliders, we generally should provide more than 0.1 g of protein daily to compensate, e.g. Randy in the past calculated that the total BML diet offers a glider approximately 1.5 g of generic protein, daily.[/]

I'm working on more soon...

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#44728 - 05/02/05 06:44 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


. . . I dunno, but he left a trail of mealies (sing-songing to the old tune "Pickin Up Paw-Paws, Put 'Em in a Basket") <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#44729 - 05/02/05 07:16 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


lol, I've got a headache now, thanks MIKEY! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
Anyways great work on trying to decipher the tables.

I still can't even begin to comprehend the superscript stuff, and I agree with Randy that it'd be nice to know if we can translate a protein figure which would tell us what we should be feeding our gliders. In fact, this is something that I asked Mikey to look into when I lent him the book, go MIKEY! I asked him if he could pull those figures out of the tables within, lol, I know I can't! I'd imagine tht between Mikey and Randy that you guys could collaborate to extract some numbers.

A few things that I have used as personal points of reference in determining the protein needs of a glider are much more simple and don't have any formulas, lol.

Basically, in the breeding/nursing months of a gliders year, they eat(according to the book and other references, hopefully that'll be a good enough source of info for some) primarily insects and pollen.

Pollen has typically around 25% protein in the form of free amino acids. Insects are about 20-25% crude protein as well.

If a glider is to breed year round, which they do in captivity, it would make sense to me that a level near, but likely much less than 20% would suffice seeing as their diet would not be made up entirely of protein sources. My diet has 14% crude protein with pollen contributing some free amino acids, and chicken accounting for the rest.

I believe that when considering the protein needs of gliders, we must take into consideration the amino acid profiles of the things that they consume in the wild, and also the form in which they take it in, which is most commonly(again according to the book)insect haemolymph and pollen. I think that the things unique and important about both insect protein and pollen are their efficiency as protein sources and the ease that they pose on the digestive system, and in the case of pollen, the amount of free amino acids and the broad amino acid profile that it bears.

This is one reason I worry about feeding chicken. It doesn't have nearly the same amino acid profile as either insect protein or pollen, and meat takes more energy to masticate and is known to be much harder on the liver and digestive system than other protein sources, so I have to wonder if the fact that our gliders get lots of meat could be contributing to the liver problems we are seeing? They definitely don't eat chickens in the wild. I suppose that's a whole other post and story, but it's something I've thought about, another reason why I was planning on looking into the Wombaroo HPS as a replacement for chicken....anyways a bit off topic, lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#44730 - 05/02/05 08:30 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ahhhhhhh.....What was that middle thing???!??
*scratches head*

The formulas I was looking at were from glideruniverisity.org, when I searched for ian hume protein. Somewhere else I found the 614 joules per day feild requirement( which was for a 124 gram glider exercising normally, and 209 joules at rest in a 24 hr. period. Then i divided by 4.18 joules per calorie for the 146 calories figure. Now, the next stuff I'm not sure about, but if we assume 146 calories are needed for an active glider, and there are 4 calories per gram of protein, and they need a 30% protein diet, then thats 11 grams of crude protein intake....

You obviously have a MUCH better understanding of the math required for this stuff, follow whatthey were saying because it quotes both Hume and another guy, Smith. But in the Hume quote, I think they're stating the number of joules needed for the Base or Feild metabolic rate, where i got my 146 calorie requirment from.
HOWEVER, I am way out of my league here, so I'll let those of you who can best my 2.2 math GPA rap my knuckles with the ruler and send me to the corner!!!! I completely understand the frustration surrounding which set of figures to follow, but as I here Humes name ALOT he must know something. And then there is the blurb concerning marsupials needing only 70% of the requirment per kg of mass because they are better at digesting it, is what I think they were driving at....

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#44731 - 05/02/05 08:39 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


wait a minute. Maybe thats 11 grams of protein per kg of body mass, in which case that makes 1.3 grams for a 124 gram glider....that fits your model, too. Is that how it works? I'm sinking fast in a mathematic morass!!

*continues scrathing head, looking puzzled*

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#44732 - 05/02/05 08:43 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


WOWZER!!! Dr. Ian Hume has responded to my email HIMSELF!!

Can I copy & paste his response, is that ok w/ board rules?

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#44733 - 05/02/05 08:51 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
You can do that with his permission. I hope he gives it.
_________________________
Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely....
My Gallery

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#44734 - 05/02/05 08:55 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey no way!
You got his email address!
That's awesome Shaun!
I'd love to hear what he has to say!
He should come to the board for a visit!

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#44735 - 05/02/05 09:00 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's awesome Shaun! I can't wait!

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#44736 - 05/02/05 09:38 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nice! Some words from the man himself! Good job Shaun!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> [:"green"]LEGEND: follow the GREEN for things to be seen![/]

Anyway, while we're waiting, here's more to throw even more of a hex on the topic, which ShaunG's post reminded me of!

I should also point out, too that Ian Humes also points to a reference from a study conducted by Smith and Green 1987.

He mentions that in a feild study performed on wild gliders they found that the dietary maintenance requirement of protein of the species Petaurus breviceps has a somewhat lower value than average (ca. 87 mg or 0.087 g which is much less than the 1.5 g from the formula) and it is theorized that this may be due perhaps to a unique ability to synthesize and recycle endogenous nitrogen from waste. The sugar glider's rather large caecum suggests that this theory is quite plausible and can perhaps be a site for fermentation. Anyway, the idea of protein synthesis from endogenous nitrogen is speculative I believe (unless since 1999 they've verified the theory somehow).

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> [:"green"]The above basically is about a finding from a study in 1987 performed on wild gliders where it was found that comparatively gliders have a lower than average protein dietary requirement, and it is speculated that perhaps gliders have an ability to synthesize proteins from nitrogen in feces and urine.[/]

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#44737 - 05/02/05 09:41 PM Re: Pockets' Modified Leadbeater's Pt. 3 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


ARGH! I'm jumping up and down wanting to relate what he sent to me!!! Monster, Ellen, can I paraphrase or what ever you call it? can I copy you on the email, and you can figure out what to print? Or shall we all wait 'til Morning in the USA to see if he responded to my request for permission?

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