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#45146 - 05/06/05 05:46 PM HLP/MBD & Peanuts/Sunflower Seeds
Anonymous
Unregistered


Been reading a book called Practical Wildlife Care by Les Stocker & got some info I found pretty interesting - thought I would share as a warning to those of you that feed peanuts/sunflower seeds. All this info was pulled from the Small Mammals chapter of the book:

"Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD) is also regularly recorded in wild red squirrels and is caused by an imbalanced diet where the calcium/phosphorus ratio has too high a phosphorus content."

"Affected red squirrels show lethargy, weakness, loss of weight and curvature of the spine"

"Prevention in captivity should be with a more balanced diet such as a rodent pellet (Mazuri Zoo Foods) and a small amount of fruit and nuts. In America, where many squirrels are raised, it has been found that peanuts and sunflower seeds predispose to MBD"

"On no account should peanuts or sunflower seeds be fed to any wild bird or other animals, especially squirrels who, as a species, seem to be particularly suceptible to MBD"

"Grey squirrel juveniles that have had access to peanuts and sunflower seeds may develope fits and seizures and die. Immediate calcium supplementation by injection seems to be the only way to prevent fatality"

"The feeding of peanuts or sunflower seeds can lead to the loss of calcium in a growing animal"

"...they contain a calcium inhibitor that can lead to hypocalcaemia which in turn predisposes to fits and an early death"

"To counter once fits have started - provide diazepam to control prolonged fits and calcium borogluconate to correct hypcalcaemia"

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#45147 - 05/06/05 06:57 PM Re: HLP/MBD & Peanuts/Sunflower Seeds [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
HLP is one of the earlier symptoms that can be seen when an animal has MBD. The body starts to leach calcium from the hind legs first as that is usually the most abundant source. The leaching progresses from there to the other bones and muscles of the animal. MBD is brought on by either an insufficient amount of calcium in the diet or an imbalance or magnesium/calcium/phosphorus. Peanuts and sun flower seeds are irrevelent unless that is the only thing the animal has in it's diet. Not that peanuts or sun flower seeds are a good thing to feed a glider but the statements are misleading. Overfeeding of any item is usually not considered a favorable thing to do. All animals need a balanced diet and most captive animals also need suppliments.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#45148 - 05/06/05 08:54 PM Re: HLP/MBD & Peanuts/Sunflower Seeds [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmmm, interesting Charlie - I didn't know that HLP was an early stage of MBD. The way this book is written, it does indicate that Peanuts and Sunflower seeds actually cause MBD. It doesn't specify "as a diet" or in any qty. I suppose this will be another thing that is at Mommy or Daddy's discretion.

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#45149 - 05/07/05 12:06 PM Re: HLP/MBD & Peanuts/Sunflower Seeds [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Hind Leg Paralysis is a common term used when an animal is deficient in calcium. Actually it is a rather deceptive description but even the vets use it at times. I have never heard of peanuts having anything to do with this condition. The dangers of peanuts are aflatoxin and the excess fat. I really don't know what effect sunflower seed would have if included in a gliders diet. As long as they are fresh and not fed in excess they probably would not do any harm.

MBD is a little confusing. Usually it is associated with the diet but can also be brought about by other things like a bacterial infection.
Charlie H


Edited by Charlie H (05/07/05 12:14 PM)
_________________________
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#45150 - 05/07/05 12:37 PM Re: HLP/MBD & Peanuts/Sunflower Seeds [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Once again I feel it important to say, that when discussing diet issues than one MUST research. Seems to me that this is exactly what Gina is doing.

She is reading Documented material that HAS BEEN researched and studied and is trying to bring it to the board to share what she has found.

Possibly I am reading this wrong, but I personally see this as once again, being told the information you are posting is incorrect due to not everyone agreeing with what was found out.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I have never heard of peanuts having anything to do with this condition. The dangers of peanuts are aflatoxin and the excess fat.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Although we have not heard about this having anything to do with this condition, maybe it is because it has never been brought to the attention of one here to search into it. Although I agree 100% with you on the facts that aflatoxins and fats are associated with peanuts it does not mean that other things can not be associated with them as well.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I really don't know what effect sunflower seed would have if included in a gliders diet. As long as they are fresh and not fed in excess they probably would not do any harm.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

And although you MAY be correct here, I think that considering that this book that she read that was written by a professional and a team of researchers, maybe this ought to be looked into a little more. It is your opinion that you dont feel there is any harm and unfortunately that is not because you have the research behind it.

I am not trying to debate here, just bringing up the fact that something of interest has been brought forward, not to cause alarm or to say do not feed period, but to inform others and to share some information while doing research to find out what is best for our lil ones.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
MBD is a little confusing. Usually it is associated with the diet but can also be brought about by other things like a bacterial infection.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

When it comes to HLP, Charlie you and Mary probably have more experience with this condition than any other people I know, so do you think that it could be possible that peanuts and Sunflower seeds can also lead into the MBD without our knowledge of it. Isnt it mostly seed fed diets that most of your rescues are fed prior to you getting them?

Just trying to see if there is any connection there that may persuade us into more research.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#45151 - 05/07/05 12:49 PM Re: HLP/MBD & Peanuts/Sunflower Seeds [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I always thought HLP was MBD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

And since this appears to be a diet discussion... I am going to move this to the diet forum. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#45152 - 05/07/05 04:43 PM Re: HLP/MBD & Peanuts/Sunflower Seeds [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I have done rather extensive research on the subject of calcium deficiency. But as most, I did not document it as it was for mostly my own education and to help in treating the gliders we have that needed treatment. There is a disease called white muscle disease that exhibits similar symptoms to what is referred to as HLP. It occurs mostly in sheep and is due to a selenium deficiency.

Monster asked a question and I answered. If you guys are offended by that then by all means do all the research you wish. That's exactly what I do when I am not satisfied with an answer. But I try to find multiple sources for answers not just isolated studies. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#45153 - 05/07/05 05:59 PM Re: HLP/MBD & Peanuts/Sunflower Seeds [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Not offended at all Charlie and sorry if you took it as such.

Just want everyone to realize that this was written and discovered by someone who does the deep research that we can only hope to be able to do one day for our suggies.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
There is a disease called white muscle disease that exhibits similar symptoms to what is referred to as HLP.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Very interesting to say the least. Now Judie made a statement </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I always thought HLP was MBD

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

What is your view on this area?

As I stated previously, you and Mary have had more experience with HLP than any that I know of, and I am very interested in what your input would be on this topic.

Also, I would like to know if you think that there may indeed be more than just aflatoxins and fat issues related in the peanuts (I say them and not sunflower seeds due to you noting you are unaware of the sunflower seeds earlier) as was stated in the book?
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#45154 - 05/07/05 07:33 PM Re: HLP/MBD & Peanuts/Sunflower Seeds [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Metabolic Bone Disease is another one of those generic medical terms that covers a wide rage of bone disorders. When we are referring to sugar gliders the term HLP is commonly used to describe the condition that is brought about by calcium deficiency. To be more specific it should be described as Nutritional Metabolic Bone Disease. But even then it would not be a true description because there are several vitamin and mineral imbalances that can bring about what is commonly referred to as HLP. Without getting into a lot of technical medical definitions glider owners simply use the term HLP.

The early symptoms of HLP that a glider owner would observe would be the glider walking with a peculiar gait with its back legs and the inability to grasp the cage well with the back feet for climbing. This will progress into the dragging of one and eventually both back legs. The leaching of calcium if not caught and treated then progresses into the spine and causes a spinal separation. This is just a simple explanation without going into the other things that are taking place in the gliders body at this time.

My experience with feeding peanuts as treats other than the aflatoxin contamination is the results of too much fat. We took in a rescue glider that was fed primarily peanuts for a year. She developed severe cataracts and is blind to the point that there is no reversing her condition. There is no way of knowing that the peanuts caused this condition but we along with our vets highly suspect that the high volume peanut diet is the cause for her condition. This is only speculation based on past diet and history. Since she was a rescue there could be other causes that we are not aware of.

I would like to know if there is a common element in peanuts and sun flower seed that would lead a vet to suspect that they would cause HLP in gliders. Maybe they have come across something that we should all know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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