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#46634 - 05/21/05 05:04 PM Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay, we went to the Exotic Pet & Bird Clinic in Kirkland, and we got Dr. Johnson-Delany <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />, who is a primatologist and marsupiolgist. She has been on research trips to Australia to observe Suger Gliders in the wild, and is just the foremost authority on captive marsupials in this part of the country.

She had a LOT to say on the subject of diet, and a new study that is about to be published basically shows that NONE of the "proven" diets are really complete for <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />.

She said basically not fruits or veg as major components, ONLY certain fruits, and then ONLY as treats. This is b/c they can't digest the fiber with their specialized caecum. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Her diet:
Acacia gum, eukalyptus flowers, hybiscus w/ aphids to create mana, bee pollen, necton-lorikeet nectar, calcium supplements, adult insects like Crickets (b/c larvae have too much fat) gut loaded w/calcium beforehand, and the TRUE Ledbeatter's and Insectivore fare from Reliable Protein.

I know this may come as a shock,and believe me I was defensive at first <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />, but ultimately I know we all want to do what is best for our little ones, this isn't meant to insult anyone's diet, but just to give access to the most updated, scientific veterinary medicine available concerning suggies.

So, I have this 7 page hand-out she gave me, with VERY specific recommendations as to diet and supplements, and a TON of other <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> info. If you're at all interested PM me and I'll email you the guide as a PDF. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

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#46635 - 05/21/05 05:39 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nice one, FlyingElvis! It starts...

What gets me now is that it's THE ONE AND ONLY Dr. Delaney Johnson stating this, and it's not a matter of some random GC member anymore trying to defend a dietary stance scientifically (or what have you), which is also the seed to heated debates and clashing of opinions on these boards. This woman has the credibility behind her, that can't be ignored, to make us at least take her words into serious consideration (not that we shouldn't be taking everyone's words into serious consideration, anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )!

I definitely would like to read that PDF file! PM sent.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#46636 - 05/21/05 05:44 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I am very interested also. Always willing to see any new developments in gliders diets.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#46637 - 05/21/05 05:47 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I find that interesting because it seems all of our gliders digest their fruit and veggies just fine? Baybe (Bourbon's glider) has been on BML most of her life, right? And shes like 12 years old I think.

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#46638 - 05/21/05 05:54 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
hybiscus w/ aphids to create mana

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

OMG I have fed this to my gliders before! Actually, I was working on an article a long time ago about dietary enrichment for gliders and in particular the enrichment of the arthropod portions of gliders and APHIDS have always been a relished treat by Dante and my glider before him, Blink (not to mention easy as pie to culture). In the end, I decided to forfeit the article due to the tension that seemed to always occur with new diet ideas.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#46639 - 05/21/05 05:57 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
agilitygliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 1425
Loc: Orlando/Kissimmee Florida
pm sent.
_________________________
Billy Rodriguez Jr.

Delfuego Kennels in Sunny Florida

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#46640 - 05/21/05 05:58 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Her diet:
Acacia gum... bee pollen...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Big_Ern, I always knew your designed diet and ideas were quite valid!!! Greatness!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#46641 - 05/21/05 06:23 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
agilitygliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 1425
Loc: Orlando/Kissimmee Florida
Just got the info and all the diets on the sheet even this vets diet includes fruit, some of the other diets even include cat food which is not good for gliders. I don't know guys but if anyone can clear this help us out with some more nutritional evidence.
_________________________
Billy Rodriguez Jr.

Delfuego Kennels in Sunny Florida

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#46642 - 05/21/05 06:25 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi littlecowgirl & agilitygliders:I know what you're both saying, and Elvis is healthy (she said so) and I've always fed him some veg & fruit, but Dr. Johnson-Delany is the expert, not me, and anyway we (humans) eat lots of stuff that's not good for us and is easily digested (candy) and don't die, but we do get fat & unwell, and it's really not the healthiest thing, y'know? By all means keep your own council, take this info and do what you wish, it's not meant to hurt, only to help...

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#46643 - 05/21/05 06:27 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mods, let me know if I'm breaking any board rules here, please!

Yikes! In the PDF file, Dr. Delaney-Johnson also makes a statement on "glider fanciers" (those are the words she chose to use) who have altered the original Leadbeater's Mix to cater to palatability, as opposed to nutritional content (pg. 2)! EEEK! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure I need not say more, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> but I'm at a total loss of words on that one... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#46644 - 05/21/05 06:28 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Can someone PM the PDF file to me? Thanks!

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#46645 - 05/21/05 06:30 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
some of the other diets even include cat food which is not good for gliders.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I wanted to mention quickly that this is actually primarily opinion inclined. There are several on here who feed catfood to their gliders with much success and have their reasons for its benefit over other protein sources. I feel they refuse to post about feeding catfood to their gliders and having it made known public in fear of causing unnecessary commotion or being repremanded...

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#46646 - 05/21/05 06:45 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
some of the other diets even include cat food which is not good for gliders.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Dr. Delany explained this too! She said Gliders NEVER get "lumpy jaw", this is a condition limited to herbivorous marsupials (Wallabys, etc.). What happens to gliders on "hard" food like cat food is broken teeth! And she said if you just soak the food (water, juice) the "hard" part is fixed. What matters is the protein/fiber ratio, so if you can't get insectivor fare, high quality cat foods are okay if you supplement the other things (again, the complete diet must be used, otherwise NOT sufficient). Dog food isn't okay, as it has lots more fat, & fiber, & less protin than cat food.

Biology momment: This is b/c cats have a shorter "carnivore" GI tract, as do gliders, whereas dogs have a longer "pseudo-omnivore" GI tract, like bears, not nearly as long as an herbivors, but longer than cats.

BTW length of GI tract is relative to time needed to ferment/digest fiber, hence the more meat/protein in the natural diet, the shorter the tract. Sorry for this technical stuff, but I'm a biologist AND a teacher, and I think providing the science is important... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nopity.gif" alt="" />

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#46647 - 05/21/05 06:46 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


PM sent, too! sounds very interesting!

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#46648 - 05/21/05 06:48 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Sorry for this technical stuff, but I'm a biologist AND a teacher, and I think providing the science is important...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

It certainly is! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#46649 - 05/21/05 07:18 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would like someone to pm me the file also. I have gliders who HATE bml.

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#46650 - 05/21/05 07:19 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


CAn someone pleasesend the PDF file to me too. Thank you!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

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#46651 - 05/21/05 07:30 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I promised Tom I would be nice in these diet discussions so I will ask you to take a look at the ingredients of the Insectivore-Fare

http://www.zoofood.com/pdf/bro-ins.pdf

Pay particular attention to the protein sources. Also to the % of protein noting that it is 'crude protein'. Compare this to the % of protein in premium grade cat food. Something is not right here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#46652 - 05/21/05 07:31 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know how to PM the file, so just PM me your email and I'll send it. I've sent 15 already today! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

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#46653 - 05/21/05 07:36 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"ingredients of the Insectivore-Fare"

and

"Compare this to the % of protein in premium grade cat food. Something is not right here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H"

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Good point, and I wondered too, so I asked the Dr. She said this is why the diets that include cat food are different than the ones that have insectivore-fare, to compensate. Every diet on Dr. Johnson-delany's list is specific i.e. you shouldn't "pick & choose" parts, they're meant to be used entire.

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#46654 - 05/21/05 07:45 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here's Purina One cat food analysis by way of (just 1 example, it's what I feed my kitty)comparison. Yes, it has more crude protein and more fat, but less fiber. Thus, other diet components are adjusted. And in either case Dr. Johnson said Ledbeaters AND either IF or cat food.

Hope this helps Charlie! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.purinaone.com/products_cat_chickenrice.asp

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#46655 - 05/21/05 07:47 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I feel they refuse to post about feeding catfood to their gliders and having it made known public in fear of causing unnecessary commotion or being repremanded...


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Unfortunately I think this can be said for many people concerning the many different issues in the great diet debate. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Marla for offering to share this information with everyone, it's always great to see a free flow of information. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#46656 - 05/21/05 09:44 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]I am definitely interested in seeing this report. PM being sent right away.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />Thanks for taking the time to let us all know about this...
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#46657 - 05/21/05 10:42 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Very cool info, thanks.
I'm excited to see more <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#46658 - 05/21/05 10:45 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Fantastic, thanks so much for sharing! PM sent!

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#46659 - 05/21/05 10:52 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
I am interested, but not completly convinced. PM sent. I have read another article with similar sounding results. I will try and find it.
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#46660 - 05/21/05 11:09 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Acacia gum, eukalyptus flowers, hybiscus w/ aphids to create mana, bee pollen, necton-lorikeet nectar, calcium supplements, adult insects like Crickets (b/c larvae have too much fat) gut loaded w/calcium beforehand, and the TRUE Ledbeatter's and Insectivore fare from Reliable Protein

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

While interesting, I find her diet to be very idealistic. To be blunt, that diet isn't even a option for everybody. Honestly, BML is barely even a option for me. If I were to feed it, there are times when I would have to offer something else, just because not all of the ingredients are always available where I live.

Also, I feel a need to comment on the reactions to having a "real scientist/expert" comment on glider diets. Just because she is a scientist, does not mean she is always correct. Scientist are proven wrong on a daily bases. The best they can generally offer is an educated guess.

I do find her diet interesting though... I think that's a very accurite discription of what they eat in the wild, but the wild diet isn't always the best diet. That has been proven time and time again by increased captive life spans in various animals.

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#46661 - 05/21/05 11:15 PM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
That is a very intriguing point. Actually all of them are. Something to chew over. Thanks Leyna!
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#46662 - 05/22/05 02:44 AM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I'd like a copy, also, will send PM in a minute.

Wanted to say, if Gliders don't get lumpy jaw, would someone please explain that to my Riker, and then tell me why all his teeth are intact and in good shape at the same time?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> And he has never eaten cat food or an unsoftened pellet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Xfilefan (05/22/05 02:49 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#46663 - 05/22/05 02:48 AM Re: Dr. Johnson-Delany : Glider Diet Shocker! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered




<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
"While interesting, I find her diet to be very idealistic."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, obviously it's idealistic, it's the OPTIMAL diet. We humans also have extensive knowledge about the "optimal" health choices we should be making, but almost nobody does so, and especially not all the time. The effect of ignoring this information is the same in gliders as it is in us: less than optimal health, increased medical costs and care, and a lower quality of life. The idea is to do the best you can, within your means, and the internet makes many things available world-wide.

I'm pretty sure you can get water, honey, baby cereal, eggs and vit/min supplements in Ohio. The I-F is available from reliable protein, and also the diet that suncoast sells as ZKS is within 1% analysis in every way. Acacia gum, bee pollen, lorikeet nectar, eukalyptis w/flowers, crickets, all are often available at your local stores [florist/nursery/vitamin shop/pet store], all are available online.



<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> "Also, I feel a need to comment on the reactions to having a "real scientist/expert" comment on glider diets. Just because she is a scientist, does not mean she is always correct. Scientist are proven wrong on a daily bases. The best they can generally offer is an educated guess."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I must take issue with the presentation of this statement. We do not guess, educated or otherwise, and I'm sorry if your education in science was so poor (very common in the US) that you were led to believe this is true. I became a scientist and an educator in order to help correct this very false impression. The "proven wrong" part is built-in to science, that's why it works, b/c we're always improving on the previous work of other researchers; oftentimes, SCIENTISTS prove scientists "wrong". We add to our understanding by looking at data, NOT OPINIONS. Veterinary & zoo research science in the US and in some other countries have the same standards as human medicine, with the distinction (controversial, I know, but the reality nonetheless) that they can actually test and perfect their data on the animals themselves.

Dismissing an experienced, dedicated marsupial vet as a "guesser" is tantamount to telling your doctor (M.D.) to take a flying leap when s/he recomends treatments for you.


If you really think about everything you do/use everyday that is due to accurate, scientific data gleaned from experiments and studies, you'll realize there is NO LACK of solid reasons to consider the information offered by professional scientists/biologists, and not our emotions and whims. See the "ledbeaters modified for palatability not nutrition" comments. I too would like to eat nothing but those foods that taste good to me (I could live on chocolate alone!), but doing so is suicidal in the light of overwhelming evidence that palate-based food choices are rarely the most healthy. Look at where giving into our whims gets us, for both our pets and ourselves, we have the fattest (w/ all accompanying health problems) people AND cats/dogs in the world.



<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> "I do find her diet interesting though... I think that's a very accurite discription of what they eat in the wild, but the wild diet isn't always the best diet. That has been proven time and time again by increased captive life spans in various animals."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I agree that it's not always posible, or desirable to re-create wild conditions in a captive situation, but I think we must consider the enormous effect that lack of predators (the #1 source of mortality in those wild organisms not more effected by habitat loss/humans) and veterinary care have on captive animal life-spans, and not attribute it to diet alone, especially when the more advanced zoos recreate not only the natural diets but the very environments themselves, (to the best of their ability!), and have dramatically increased the quality and length of life, as well as reproductive success of their charges by doing so. I'm old enough to remember "animal cracker" zoos, are you? Where many animals were in unadorned, barred, concrete boxes, and fed raw meat, or dog food? They did not live long or happily. Zoo & vet science has improved our understanding of our captive/pet animals needs. We would be remiss in our duty as care-givers to turn a blind eye to solid facts because it's inconvenient to do what's best.

But really, don't do anything you don't believe in, just don't throw away data based on false impressions. I want to make a truly informed choice, I want that for myself, and for those I love, period. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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