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#472112 - 02/07/08 03:30 PM Pom On or Pom Off and Why
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
I've read a lot about neutering gliders and I am considering neutering my gray boy after seeing so many grays go without homes.

I have come to the conclusion that leaving the Pom on is generally considered to be the best option, but the vet normally does the Pom removal procedure. She is willing to leave the Pom on, per my request, but she wants to know why I think its better than just removing it. She knows about GC and she wants me to send her any good info or experience I find.

Thank you in advance! Your help is much appreciated.

smile
_________________________
Jenny tounge

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:glider: Adonis & Persephone & Aphrodite
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#472113 - 02/07/08 03:31 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
I say pom on (without glue). There is much less risk of SMing in most cases, and I think less heal-time.

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#472119 - 02/07/08 03:34 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: glidergrl1513]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
With the pom on, there will not be any open wound, glue, or stitches to irritate the glider, so it is much less likely that they will SM.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#472124 - 02/07/08 03:35 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Lynsie]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
How does the scrotum stay closed after the testis are removed if there is no glue or stitches?

Thanx for the quick replies!
_________________________
Jenny tounge

Wife to Josh, Mom to Taylor heart

:glider: Coo & Chimera
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#472128 - 02/07/08 03:38 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
The incision is TINY. Have you seen Lynsie's pictures of her newly neutered gliders? She just posted them the other day, and they show how to scrotum looks right after being neutered, and the hole is very small.

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#472129 - 02/07/08 03:38 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I agree with everyone about the pom on but I was just wondering what is a plus of taking the pom off??
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#472133 - 02/07/08 03:43 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Here are the pics of my boys that were neutered yesterday. I took those pics as soon as I walked in the door from the vet. See the tiny red dot? That is the incision site. It's so small that it immediately starts to heal. It's so tiny that you do not need stitches or glue to keep it closed. Usually you don't even need any take home pain meds. My boys both got a shot of Torb before coming home and haven't had anymore pain meds since. I'll go take some more pics in a minute.


Attachments
DSC08069.JPG (68 downloads)
DSC08065.JPG (56 downloads)

_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#472135 - 02/07/08 03:44 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
Hollis, no, I didn't see the pics. I'll go find them now. This vet is very willing to learn and she thinks its great there are so many people willing to help.

Lauren, she said the reason she removes the pom is to prevent SM by tucking the remaining peice of the stalk under the skin and using the glue to keep it shut. She has never had problems with doing it that way, but she's open to leaving it on.
_________________________
Jenny tounge

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#472136 - 02/07/08 03:45 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
Never mind! She just posted them here. smile

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#472137 - 02/07/08 03:45 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
Oh wow! Thanx Lynsie! I guess you posted while I was typing. tounge

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Jenny tounge

Wife to Josh, Mom to Taylor heart

:glider: Coo & Chimera
:glider: Ruckus & Mayhem
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#472138 - 02/07/08 03:45 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Lynsie]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
I don't know of any 'plus' of removing the pom. Maybe the vets think it easier just to cut it off dunno
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#472139 - 02/07/08 03:47 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
That is a VERY tiny incision! Lynsie, does your vet do consults with other vets, in case my vet would like to ask questions?
_________________________
Jenny tounge

Wife to Josh, Mom to Taylor heart

:glider: Coo & Chimera
:glider: Ruckus & Mayhem
:glider: Adonis & Persephone & Aphrodite
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#472141 - 02/07/08 03:48 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Lynsie]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
So far I have had 4, maybe 5 (can't remember, lol) gliders neutered with poms on and I have not had any problems at all. I bring them home, put them cage with their mate, and that's it, they are fine.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#472168 - 02/07/08 04:18 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Lynsie]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Here is a pic of Neptune from a few mintues ago. Silas was being a wiggle worm so I couldn't get a good pic of his.


Attachments
DSC08073.JPG (60 downloads)
Description: 'day after' Neptune


_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#472197 - 02/07/08 04:48 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Lynsie]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Here is my take:

Riker SMed pre-neuter-hormonal related. His neuter was pom off to stop it. All my others had poms left on.

Pom Off: CONS

Many more gliders SM pom off than pom on because glue or stitches MUST be used to close the wound or the abdomen itself is open. That would not be a good thing. A glider thinks it needs to be groomed off, and when they go after it it's a straight shot into the abdomen-with the potential to cause severe or fatal damage in under an hour, plus more likely to do so, particularly without adequate pain control. Plus, if infection is present it goes straight into vital areas. Longer recovery time for incision.

Pros: complete removal of all hormones (the sack itself does produce a small amount-which is why pom-on gliders may still keep a small bald spot-those without look like a girl glider without the pouch. I recommend this one ONLY when a glider is SM due to hormone related issues.

As to reproduction...just as effective either way.

Pom ON: Pros

No glue or stitches. IF the glider does go after it, they usually go after the pom first (which can still be removed if severely damaged), and it gives time before they get to the abdomen itself. Not nearly the incidence of SM. Glider is less likely to know something is 'missing' also, as the sack is still there, and just enough hormone to retain some secondary sex characteristics. Recovery time is less.

Cons: more likely, if older, to want to mate when female is in heat. If agressive, mating wounds could still be a possibility, though usually the reduction is enough. Pom Off is no guarantee they still won't try-my Binx does, and his was removed (before I got him)-but he was rather mature when it was done. Seems to have to do with sexual maturity at neuter, rather than age.

In both cases adequate pain management (and an e-collar on hand) is key to preventing SM. Sometimes even that's not enough, but it reduces the risk drastically.

Does this help?

Edit: I've had a LOT of experience with this particular topic.


Edited by Xfilefan (02/07/08 05:26 PM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#472220 - 02/07/08 05:21 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Xfilefan]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
Awesome post Jen! Thank you very much! grin
_________________________
Jenny tounge

Wife to Josh, Mom to Taylor heart

:glider: Coo & Chimera
:glider: Ruckus & Mayhem
:glider: Adonis & Persephone & Aphrodite
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#472267 - 02/07/08 06:35 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
princess86
Unregistered


Hey thanks for this post. I am making appointment tomorrow for my suggie to be neutered. Will ask about leaving pom on!

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#472273 - 02/07/08 06:42 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: ]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
My vet removes the pom and I have had 2 done this way... soon to be 3. I never had a problem.
My vet does 3 layers of stitch inside so there are NO exposed stitches to chew at. and if they do manage to open one layer of stitch there are 2 more as a back up.
My boys came home happy and healthy. The site looked great and they did NOT SM.
Just b/c there are more reports of SM with the pom removed does not mean it will happen.
...and yes, the pom removed makes them loose thier bald spot and they look like a female with no pouch.

Everyone has to make the decision for themselves but don't think that a glider will definatley SM if the pom is removed.
_________________________
Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.

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#472276 - 02/07/08 06:45 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: krysKritters]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Quote:
Everyone has to make the decision for themselves but don't think that a glider will definatley SM if the pom is removed


I didn't say they would-just that it's more likely. And most vets do external glue/stitches-and there lies the problem.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#472284 - 02/07/08 07:04 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Xfilefan]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
I didn't say u did, I just wanted to point it out b/c I think people hear no pom and think SM.
smile
_________________________
Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.

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#472339 - 02/07/08 08:02 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: krysKritters]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: krysKritters

Just b/c there are more reports of SM with the pom removed does not mean it will happen.


True. So why take a chance?

Obviously, gliders are sm'ing and dying from having poms removed, it makes no sense to do it.

I had a choice of having a non-invasive surgery on myself OR being cut open which would mean stitches, glue and a longer recovery not to mention more chance of infection. I chose the non-invasive of course and will always do the same for my gliders.

It just makes sense not to cut into an animal that has instinct to attack pain to itself thinking it is being attacked. It's sad gliders have to be this way but it IS a fact and up to us to make sure we do everything in our power to not allow them any pain.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#472544 - 02/08/08 12:14 AM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: SugarBlossoms]
NickieDo
Unregistered


Jenny which vet are you using?

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#472693 - 02/08/08 09:37 AM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: ]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
Originally Posted By: NickieDo
Jenny which vet are you using?


Well, I had been going to Indian Ridge Animal Clinic in Kingsport, and they do wonderfully with all my other "exotics," but when I called to ask about a neuter they told me it was too risky because of anesthesia unless there was a medical reason for it. Sooo I started calling around and I found a wonderful woman at VCA Highlands in Abingdon that has experience with gliders and is willing to work with me to get my babies the care I want. smile
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Jenny tounge

Wife to Josh, Mom to Taylor heart

:glider: Coo & Chimera
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#472906 - 02/08/08 02:44 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
NickieDo
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Bubbles8i8
Originally Posted By: NickieDo
Jenny which vet are you using?


Well, I had been going to Indian Ridge Animal Clinic in Kingsport, and they do wonderfully with all my other "exotics," but when I called to ask about a neuter they told me it was too risky because of anesthesia unless there was a medical reason for it. Sooo I started calling around and I found a wonderful woman at VCA Highlands in Abingdon that has experience with gliders and is willing to work with me to get my babies the care I want. smile


That scares me a little bit...I use Indian Ridge, and I called about a neuter 2 days ago, and talked to the vet. (I can't remember which one) He said they do the surgery. Its a pom removal, and they way he talked, SM was not all that uncommon.

I called VCA when i first got my gliders, i think they quoted me something like $200 for a neuter, and its a far drive for me frown

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#473287 - 02/09/08 05:53 AM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: ]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
They told me $106 @ VCA and Dr Robinson is an exotics specialist. She has already agreed to do her research about leaving pom-on and she said she will be contacting Lynsie's vet to find out as much info as possible. She told me she is glad to work with me for my USDA requirements and she seemed interested when I asked about a discount on future neuters for joeys I breed, if I use her often enough for repeat procedures (I couldn't figure out how to word this sentence, did it make sense? lol).

I LOVE Indian Ridge for the most part. They have always been wonderful with all of my animals (mice, rats, ferrets, dogs, cats) and I would even go to them for regular care for the suggies. I just couldn't allow them to do a surgery on a glider now, after what they told me. I understand that all surgeries are risky, especially on animals as small as gliders, but the way they were talking made me really uncomfortable. I won't stop going there for my other animals.
_________________________
Jenny tounge

Wife to Josh, Mom to Taylor heart

:glider: Coo & Chimera
:glider: Ruckus & Mayhem
:glider: Adonis & Persephone & Aphrodite
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#473385 - 02/09/08 11:00 AM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
blockamon Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 563
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
IMO, the most important thing regarding pom on vs. off is which one your vet is most comfortable with. The idea of asking the vet to change their method scares the heck out of me. IMO, practice makes perfect, and anything new for a surgery is bad.

FWIW, we just had Bob neutered yesterday. Our vet leaves the pom on unless there is a reason not to because it results in a smaller incission.

Bob worried a little at the glue used to close the (small) incission and pretty much groomed it off. However, the vet said that the inner stitches were fine and that the outer incission would close just fine. He have us some antibiotics just in case, but in general Bob is doing great.

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#473408 - 02/09/08 11:50 AM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: Bubbles8i8]
NickieDo
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Bubbles8i8

I LOVE Indian Ridge for the most part. They have always been wonderful with all of my animals (mice, rats, ferrets, dogs, cats) and I would even go to them for regular care for the suggies. I just couldn't allow them to do a surgery on a glider now, after what they told me. I understand that all surgeries are risky, especially on animals as small as gliders, but the way they were talking made me really uncomfortable. I won't stop going there for my other animals.


Thats what I needed to hear, I love Indian Ridge too, but I'm like you...after talking to them about the neuter I really became afraid of letting them do it. I'd much rather drive to VCA after hearing what you've said.

IR lost a glider to SM about 3 months ago, the vet told me this..and the way he was talking made it sound like SM was a common thing.

Which vet is it that you are talking to at VCA?

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#473441 - 02/09/08 01:16 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: SugarBlossoms]
7glider7
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms


Obviously, gliders are sm'ing and dying from having poms removed, it makes no sense to do it.



I'm sure you can find gliders who have also SMed and died from neuters with their poms left on too.

Both of my boys had poms off. My vet explained it to me as in her opinion, there was nothing left for them to go after or bother, so she felt poms off was safer. (True, they can go after their abdomen and stitches, so I didn't agree with her logic entirely.) She also felt that there was a smaller likelihood of complications and healing with a couple of internal stitches in the abdomen rather than the scrotum dangling around and trying to heal.

The people who are posting that there is a much smaller likelihood of SM with poms on are people who have neutered many more gliders than me. But have you actually collected data and numbers on this when you claim that there is more SM with poms off? Or is this an opinion? Please don't take offense, but I have seen well-intentioned incorrect stats posted on here before, so I just want to make sure we are informing members correctly.

My two cents is it has a lot more to do with your vet's skill at neutering and correctly medicating your glider for pain than poms off vs. poms on.

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#473448 - 02/09/08 01:28 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
All I can say is 4 out of 5 serious cases I've personally been asked to help with were pom off-there have been several dozen. More damage, longer in the collar, a few fatal because they'd already done too much damage before help was sought, pain control didn't help as much, or they caused damage simply trying to get rid of the stitch or glue-triggering the cycle in the first place. More post after a pom off neuter that something has gone wrong, than pom on. I get calls that never make it to the board as well from people who find the emergency contact numbers, but aren't members. My own first glider was/is a pom off SM. I'm pretty confident in saying the risk is higher. There is SOME risk either way, but the more they take, and the more they leave behind (stitches/glue) the more often they won't leave it alone.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#473449 - 02/09/08 01:29 PM Re: Pom On or Pom Off and Why [Re: ]
TracyLynn
Unregistered


I agree that the vet's comfort and experience has a lot to do with the process. Just to add numbers, in case anyone is keeping track, my vet has neutered about 15 males for me. All pom-off and no sm's at all. The one glider she neutered for my daughter with pom-on did sm.

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