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#473445 - 02/09/08 01:26 PM Correct neuter stats are important
7glider7
Unregistered


I have seen several posts lately with people who are afraid of neutering their gliders because they are too afraid they will SM.

YES, we need to educate people that there is a strong risk of SM in gliders and they need to prepare for it. But if people are scared to neuter their animals because of discussion on the boards, I feel like we are doing something wrong.

I feel like a lot of this worry is based on fear rather than actual facts and numbers. If you look at Alden's recent post, the majority of gliders do NOT SM after neutering. We should prepare owners for the worst case scenario, but I think we need to be careful with the numbers we throw around in conversation...they are sometimes not factual and scare people away from doing what is probably best for their glider.

One issue that I'd like to bring up is the Sticky itself on Neutering. It says in this post that there seems to be a 50/50 whether a glider will SM or not. Based on standard language of mathematics and probability, this indicates that for each neuter, there is a 50% chance of your glider SMing.

This is simply false. Or, if you feel that it is true, please post about your experience...I have never seen any information on the board indicating that anyone has had 50% of their gliders SM post neuter, unless it was the fault of an extremely negligent vet.

This stat alone almost convinced me not to neuter my second male glider because it was such a high number, until I realized after doing more research that it is not mathematically correct. I respectfully contacted the writer of the sticky over PM requesting for it to be changed, and we had a great conversation about the posting of this stat. She said she would be comfortable with us making a post about it, but I am not quoting our conversation directly as I do not have permission to do so.

Please understand my goal here is not to slam anybody or their math. My goal is that we give people factually correct information and stats about neutering. Some of the info we are giving now is not factual or correct, and it is scaring people away from neutering their gliders. This is going to result in more unwanted glider babies who need homes.

I hope to start a respectful conversation about how we can make sure we are giving correct stats when we educate new board members.

Thanks everyone hug2


Edited by 7glider7 (02/09/08 01:27 PM)

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#473456 - 02/09/08 01:41 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I have always stated that post neuter SM is RARE. It is. Many more gliders are neutered with no issue at all, than have one. We hear about the ones that have a problem, but not the dozens that do fine for the one that doesn't. Adequate pain control post neuter reduces the risk further.

But IF THEY DO, and it's not caught, or stopped quickly, severe damage or death can and has resulted. The goal isn't to scare anyone per se-but a little fear is a good thing if it makes people prepare for the POSSIBILITY that is there with every neuter. an unexpected injury, a UTI, etc. There is nothing to say whether any glider will or won't until it happens-no warning, no behavioral patterns that says 'this glider will SM'. One thing consistent with every glider that does, whether post neuter, from injury, infection, hormones (males) or whatever, is if anything else comes along, they will do it again. Once an SM, always an SM.

But if you are not prepared, and at 2am have no collar, no store, no vet-your glider can be maimed or die before you get help. I've stated many times-SM is NOT something to worry about excessively-prepare yourself and know what to watch/listen for, what situations COULD trigger it, and then you don't NEED to fear it. And dead/maimed gliders is what happens when it's not discussed, and the facts presented, no matter how ugly the reality. It's not LIKELY to happen to any given person/glider, but the POTENTIAL is there for any glider.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#473465 - 02/09/08 01:55 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
This is simply false. Or, if you feel that it is true, please post about your experience...I have never seen any information on the board indicating that anyone has had 50% of their gliders SM post neuter, unless it was the fault of an extremely negligent vet.


Because there is a 50% chance that a glider will SM, does NOT mean that half of all gliders will SM. It means for each individual glider, there is a 50% chance of SM'ing. This is why you need to be PREPARED and have an ecollar you know fits your glider and KNOW HOW TO PUT IT ON. Only the owner and vet can prevent a glider from SM'ing. Since the vets are not with the gliders every minute post neuter, it really is up to the owner to make sure the glider has proper pain management and is NOT able to reach himself to do any damage.

If you know there is the risk, know what to look for and know what to do, the risk of post neuter SM can be reduced down to less than 1%. But that depends on how the humans responsible for the glider take care of the glider post neuter.

You have to realize that while a glider may wake up from the ansethsia in minutes following surgery, it can take hours for the effects to fully and completly wear off. During this time is when the glider is most vunerable. When gliders come out from ansethsia, they are disoriented and confused (just like many humans after surgery). They don't know what is going on and are often scared. Combine this with a source of pain (the surgery site) and they may feel they are being attacked and feel they HAVE to attack back. They will attack anything they can get their teeth on, including themselves. The more time that goes by post neuter, the less confused they are (as the anesthsia does wear off) and the lower the risk of post neuter SM becomes.

Quote:
Please understand my goal here is not to slam anybody or their math. My goal is that we give people factually correct information and stats about neutering. Some of the info we are giving now is not factual or correct, and it is scaring people away from neutering their gliders. This is going to result in more unwanted glider babies who need homes.


What is posted, is factual and correct. Please show us where anything false has been posted. I think perhaps your concerns is over how you understood what was written. As I said, "50/50 chance" does NOT mean that 50% of all gliders will SM. It means each individual glider has a 50/50 chance.


Edited by Dancing (02/09/08 01:59 PM)
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#473512 - 02/09/08 03:45 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
North_Nocturne Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 607
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Originally Posted By: 7glider7
We should prepare owners for the worst case scenario, but I think we need to be careful with the numbers we throw around in conversation...they are sometimes not factual and scare people away from doing what is probably best for their glider.


clap

Thanks for this post.
_________________________
Elizabeth
gliders. Nocturne & Lark

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#473516 - 02/09/08 03:59 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: North_Nocturne]
NickieDo
Unregistered


My issue is not the fear of having my grey male neutered, its more of finding the right vet, not the vet that says SM is common. To me, thats a red flag.

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#473567 - 02/09/08 05:51 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: Dancing]
7glider7
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Dancing
[quote]
It means for each individual glider, there is a 50% chance of SM'ing.

What is posted, is factual and correct. Please show us where anything false has been posted. I think perhaps your concerns is over how you understood what was written. As I said, "50/50 chance" does NOT mean that 50% of all gliders will SM. It means each individual glider has a 50/50 chance.


I am not disagreeing that there is a potentially dangerous risk of SM. Yes, I am disagreeing with the way it is written. The way this is written is misleading and I strongly feel it should be changed.

It is not factually correct that each individual glider has a 50% chance of SMing post neuter. This means that every time a glider is neutered, there is a 1 in 2 chance, or a coin toss (heads or tails) chance, that your glider will self mutilate. This is false. Please show me the data if you have if this is indeed correct and I will gladly recant and say I am wrong.
I believe you have neutered between 25 and 30 gliders, yes? If there is a 1 in 2 chance of self mutilation with each neuter, then approximately 50% of your gliders should have self mutilated post neuter.

This is similar to a Punnetts square in terms of probability. Say that you are crossing two leu hets Ll x Ll. For each mating, there is a 1/4 chance of getting a leu (ll), a 2/4 chance of getting a leu het(Ll), and a 1/4 chance of getting a standard gray (LL). Since this is not guaranteed and is based on random independent assortment during mating, you are not guaranteed to get 1 leu, 2 hets, and 1 classic gray for every 4 matings...however, if you put those parents' genotypes on coins (Ll and Ll) and flipped them about 100 times and recorded what offspring you got, approximately 25% of them would be leus, approximately 50% would be leu hets, and approximately 25% of them would be grays.

So, again, if the probability was 1 in 2, or 50/50, or 50% (all synonyms in mathematical terms) that an individual glider would SM post neuter, we would see somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of gliders self-mutilating post neuter.

PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, but I have never seen anywhere near these numbers.

It is mathematically incorrect to have this in a sticky, it is misleading, and it will continue to prevent people from neutering their gliders. Please change it. I agree it should be emphasized that gliders do have a higher risk of SM post neuter than most other animals when being neutered, and everyone should be very prepared. That does not mean it's OK to post things that are mathematically incorrect and misleading.

Edited to say: It seems that "about 50% of gliders SM after neutering" is not what you intended to say. But I have a fairly strong background in math and probability, and this is what your phrasing means, whether you have that intent or not. That is why I am requesting it to be changed. When a newbie comes to that thread and reads that number, they just see the statistic...and not your intent...and the statistic is worded in a way that is not mathematically factual.


Edited by 7glider7 (02/09/08 05:57 PM)

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#473575 - 02/09/08 05:59 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
7glider7
Unregistered


Added to say: I'm not requesting that sticky be removed or anything...I think it's incredibly important to warn and educate new owners. I just wish that number would be changed, and that we would be careful about the numbers we throw around.

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#473599 - 02/09/08 06:25 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
peace
Unregistered


i have been involed with over 26 nueters by myself (vet did the nueters) and i have not had one problem. but i rember the first one and i was scared but knew it had to be done because i did not want babies. i did however prepair for what ever could come up.

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#473629 - 02/09/08 07:22 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
Of the last 4 neuters I've done on my boys, 3 of them HAVE post-neuter SM'd. Where the blame belongs is not something to be discussed in this particular thread, but my statistics DO belong here.

On the GOOD side of this statistic is that I have become WELL PREPARED for such an occurrence. Having been through it the first time, I am educated in what to do when or if it happens in the future.

I have 4 more boys who will be undergoing this procedure in the not-too-distant future. I might be going to a DIFFERENT vet for these procedures, and this new vet's office MIGHT have a different approach than my favorite/current vet (and therefore MIGHT have different results), but that is all ahead of me. I will let you know as it happens.
_________________________
Minkasmom (Papillon Kisses)
Slave to:
28 gliders,
5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#473636 - 02/09/08 07:38 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: minkasmom]
7glider7
Unregistered


Minkasmom, I would love to hear about your future experiences with your next vet.

Hearing more stats from people who have been through multiple neuters would be helpful. Thanks everyone thumb


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#473748 - 02/09/08 10:13 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
7glider7
Unregistered


I just found the last "Is your Glider Neutered?" post and totaled all the data. (And Minkasmom, I just added what you just said in there too as data with 3 of your 4 gliders having issues).

Based on my math (and I checked it twice) this is a sample size of 174 gliders from people who reported about their neuter. Out of 174 gliders, 21 of them either self-mutilated or went after their surgery site.

Dancing, you said 36 to 38 gliders, and you said that two would have SMed if not in an e-collar and that you had problems with a few, so I counted that as "3" SMs out of 38 neuters.

If you divide this out to get a percentage, this is 12.07% of gliders that self-mutilate or otherwise go after themselves after neutering. I sort of "rounded up" the complications, so if anything, this is most likely an exaggerated figure that somewhat "over reports" the problems based on everyone's reporting rather than a conservative one.

Working this out with algebra, that means your glider has about a 1 in 8.29 chance of self mutilating or somehow going after himself after surgery. As you can see, this is very different from a 1 in 2 chance of your glider going after himself after surgery.

Again, this is still a surprisingly high rate (higher than I thought it would be when I was totaling the numbers) and all owners should be prepared. The sticky is very necessary to brief owners of potential dangers...but again, I respectfully request that the numbers in that stat could be changed to reflect the actual data.

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#473770 - 02/09/08 10:26 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I have read (somewhere on GC - sorry, I know that it is vague) that MANY gliders will come out of anesthesia and go directly for the neuter site. This seems, from what I've read, to be because of confusion upon waking up. If these gliders are attended to as they are waking up, and someone is with them to restrain them as the "come around" - then that urge quickly passes.

This may be correct. I don't know. But, if it is, it seems that correct post-anesthesia care might help many of those who become SMers?

I'm just putting this out there as a theory ...
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#473838 - 02/10/08 01:27 AM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Why are we nitpicking? 50/50 ONLY means the CHANCE of a glider going after the site, pain meds aside. Stopping damage before it starts counts, since if nothing were done, what do you think would happen? Whether one does or not can also depend on whether pain meds were given before the glider came out of anesthesia, if they were administered directly on waking, what kind, and how quick they took effect, the procedure used, and how good the vet is.

The POINT is-the potential is there for EVERY SINGLE NEUTER. EVERY injury. EVERY UTI or painful infection. Mating wounds that can be reached.

We have a very small sample out of thousands done in this country-speaking ONLY neuters-only board members, and the plus/minus error margin in that sample is huge.

If you take this the way it should be taken, as an education to awareness in order to avoid future damage/death. Those of us who help with these see dozens, and as I said, many that are not posted about. Unless you poll a huge sample of glider owners on a national basis you're not going to come up with the type of percentages you want. There are also many members that did not reply to that thread, many that are no longer here, but the information is no less valid.

The post is not to scare people into being afraid of a neuter-it's to make every owner aware of the postential danger so no more gliders die of this. When I was new, with my first glider, SMing-it took THREE DAYS for ANYONE to do more than shrug their virtual shoulders in confusion, with no more clue than I what was happening-even my vet was no help. I had to tell HIM what to do, once someone could tell ME what to do. 5 years ago, SM was usually a death sentence simply due to lack of awareness.

I don't think it's that far off if the numbers are looked at like they are INTENDED to be-as a potential, and think it should stay as it is, largely due to the fact that this subject tends to be ignored until an owner is in the middle of the crisis and it's already started, despite the warnings.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#473842 - 02/10/08 01:38 AM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: Xfilefan]
SuggieLuver4941
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Xfilefan

The POINT is-the potential is there for EVERY SINGLE NEUTER. EVERY injury. EVERY UTI or painful infection. Mating wounds that can be reached.


I think that about sums this whole thing up.

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#473870 - 02/10/08 04:18 AM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I probably have had over two hundred babies with a few adult males altered in 7 years.

Of that number, one adult male died from the tie not being tight enough, and one baby was biting everything in sight but did not get himself because of my monitoring him. NONE have ever self mutilated. Pain med is admin after the neuter and on hand in my frig.

Most that I have seen on this board that have mutilated themselves Post Op Neutering... were from the vet removing the scrotum followed with stitches and glue. SM resulted from Pain and foreign materials on his body. NO Pain meds were given.

Others who mutilate... UTI's, Impactions and then those gliders who SM from injuries. These are the result of Pain. Again... NO Pain Med or E-Collars were on hand.

Part of an Emergancy Kit should have an E-Collar and a PAIN Med in it. These two items would greatly cut down the possibility of SM.

Key is to Educate People and have the necessary Emerg Kit Available to all. Perhaps contacting vendors and breeders about supplying them with Emerg Kits that can be sold to a new client when perchasing their first sugar glider. What better way to make awareness of SM of gliders from Possible UTI's, Possibile Impactions, or from Injuries. Pain med must be purchased from the clients vet as it is a controled substance.

Anyone considering having their glider Neutered... needs to be Educated as to the Proper Way to Have A Male Sugar Glider Altered. breeders, Rescuers, Experienced Pet Sugar Glider Owner, and Glider Central Members are the Keys to reaching out to the new pet owner.

Last thing as a Sugar Glider Community that we do not want to do is throw a wrench into Neutering so People will be afraid to have this simple proceedure available to the little male glider. Neutering is a very Safe surgery if done correctly.



_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#473871 - 02/10/08 04:24 AM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: Judie]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
the lady that got one of my first joeys this Amelia this fall and then a male from Lynsie in Dec. just had Jupiter neutered on Friday. vet left the pom on, pain meds given before he was brought out of anesthesia. There was no collar used, but, I made sure to show her how to get one on and gave her one to use, just in case. The only thing I didn't care for was the vet did use glue. Jupiter acted like nothing ever happened, other than the blissful sleepy state he was in all of Friday roflmao
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#473883 - 02/10/08 07:44 AM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: BeckiT]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I have only personally had one glider neutered. He DID SM post-neuter. Pain meds WERE administered before he came out from under anesthesia; however, his poms were removed and sutures were used. Fortunately, I was able to get ahold of Teresa/Dancing and she walked me through getting an e-collar onto him before the damage was severe. I was glad that I knew WHO to contact and was able to give him proper care right away... This was about 3 years ago...
I am currently taking care of Zane (Phayzed's glider) because he started to SM post-neuter. In his case, the pom was left on, but surgical glue was used and in spite of post-op pain meds, he did try to get rid of the glue. Again, an e-collar was gotten on him right away and extensive damage was prevented.

I think the KEY here is that proper methods of neutering need to be stressed as well as preventive measures of post-op pain meds and having an e-collar on hand. THESE are the things that are stressed in the entire FAQ sticky and I, for one, am very greatful that they are.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#473929 - 02/10/08 09:36 AM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: sugarglidersuz]
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 2664
Loc: Hudson Valley, NY
I have had 2 neuters... both are with the Pom removed and neither had any complications or SM-ing. smile
_________________________
Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.

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#473939 - 02/10/08 09:55 AM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: Xfilefan]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: Xfilefan
Why are we nitpicking? 50/50 ONLY means the CHANCE of a glider going after the site, pain meds aside.


Jen, I wasn't nit picking. I started the "Is your glider neutered" thread, because it was *my* perception that the actual SM numbers were not accurately represented and I didn't want people to be scared to neuter. Like your purpose for starting this thread - I think that *neutering* is very important, and scaring glider owners is *not* necessary. Alerting them to be prepared, yes. Frightening out of the procedure, no. You and I are on the same page in this.

I was only putting my theory out there as one more way to prevent SMing. I agree - SMing is not inevitable. Or even likely. It does happen, and we should be aware. But - if everything pre and post op is done according to a recognized procedure, perhaps the SMing could be reduced even further.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#474013 - 02/10/08 11:46 AM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
The POINT is-the potential is there for EVERY SINGLE NEUTER. EVERY injury. EVERY UTI or painful infection.


THIS is the point. And before that post was made about the FAQ on Neutering, I sent that post to those that work the closest with the self mutilating gliders. Xfilefan (Jen), Bourbon and Mary.

I stand by my statement that each individual glider has a 50/50 chance of self mutilating post neuter. The POTENTIAL IS THERE for every glider in pain to self mutilate. Does that mean that each will? NO. Technically, each glider has a 100% CHANCE (chance being the potential to) self mutilate under the right (or wrong depending on how you view it) circumstance.

With those that I have had neutered, I believe MANY more would have SM had I not been prepared. I stated that two of them had to be in collars more than 12 hours. Some had to be held by me for several hours post neuter (or placed in ecollars, I prefer to hold them initially). Do I have the exact numbers for someone to crunch...no because I treat EVERY glider I take in for neutering as an "at risk" glider. I assume they WILL self mutilate and I treat them/take care of them in a precautionary way. To prevent the worst happening.

Because the potential is there for EVERY glider to SM from pain, it is vital that people are prepared for the worst so they can prevent the worst from happening.



_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#474083 - 02/10/08 01:44 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: Dancing]
7glider7
Unregistered


OK, I guess I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with some people on this one.

A lot of people are misunderstanding my point. I am CERTAINLY NOT SAYING that we should educate people any less about the possibility of SM. This danger is VERY REAL, the consequences are VERY DEVASTATING, and this education is VERY IMPORTANT. I am disagreeing with the fear tactics being used to educate because it is scaring people away from neutering their gliders.

Why am I nitpicking? (and yes, I am nitpicking)

Because:

1) I am a science teacher and I personally ethically disagree with posting statistics that are false and not based on data (please refer to any standard mathematics textbook, middle school or above, to see why these stats are false if my above explanation does not make sense to you), and, more importantly,

2) I think that the pendulum has swung back in the other direction. You mention that in the not-too-distant past, there was not enough awareness of SM and many gliders were being lost to SM because owners were not aware of the risks. Every death of a glider due to SM is very tragic and I am thankful that everyone is more aware now. However, I think we have reached the other extreme. I have seen posts indicating that people are NOT NEUTERING their gliders because they are SO afraid that they are going to SM.

As a community who cares about our gliders and wants them all to have good homes, I think we can agree that this extreme is ALSO NOT HEALTHY.

I guess I've made my point as well as I can make it, and if I haven't convinced anyone to change that grossly incorrect number in the sticky yet, I'm not going to convince you now.

Here's my bottom line: Let's continue to educate people about the dangers of SM without scaring the heck out of them.

Instead, let's make the focus on: looking at actual DATA, how can we minimize the chances of SM to the smallest possible number? Has anyone looked at actual number DATA for this? If not, I'd love to. What is the frequency of mutilation with poms off vs. poms on? Sutures (internal or external?) vs. glue? What anesthsiology procedures and pain meds are most likely to prevent SM? What post-op care is needed? (and again, this sounds like a very valid question as many gliders are reported to go after themselves while waking up).

I've heard people say "this is safer than that," but has anyone actually analyzed DATA to figure this out? Let's use real numbers to educate people about how they can really minimize their chances...because there are so many vets and people out there who just don't know. Let's use our data to educate rather than to create scare tactics.

This would be a much more powerful and positive way to save gliders from SM. You would be preparing people AND saving gliders without scaring people away.

I guess I'd be happy to see people post if you'd be interested in this type of study. Really all I'd need is a lot of info from a lot of people about the above stuff and I will run the numbers...I have next week off of work so I have plenty of time to crunch data.

Thanks for your time.

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#474086 - 02/10/08 01:52 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: Dancing]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Quote:
I stand by my statement that each individual glider has a 50/50 chance of self mutilating post neuter.


Teresa, I stand with you. In fact, depending on the vet, and pain control, I would stand by the statement that the chances are higher than 50/50.

Add an inexperienced or unknowledgeable owner, and it goes up some more.

And I stand by my statement that my OWN glider would have died without someone who knew what was going on FINALLY. That a bit of a "scare" is GOOD FOR ANY NEW OWNER IF THE INFORMATION GETS INTO THEIR BRAIN, and results in knowing what to do when it happens.

I have SEEN a glider die from ripping it's own insides OUT on a 20 minute trip to the vet when he slipped his collar. That was June of 2003. The owner's name was DevilBunnyGirl. She has not been back to GC since.

If you could see what I "see" and have seen, you wouldn't have started this post.

ALL IT TAKES is being AWARE and PREPARED to PREVENT the images that go through my mind with EVERY NEW GLIDER that goes after himself, herself, his or her tail, cloaca, abdomen, arm, leg, hand, foot, side.

When you've SEEN a glider's insides on the outside from self inflicted damage-dead and IN PAIN-and I wish I had the pics, you wouldn't be arguing this.

I will say AGAIN-SELF MUTILATION IS NOT something to fear if you read about it, know what to look/listen for, and are prepared. ANY glider has the potential. ANY. They are WILD animals, UNDOMESTICABLE no matter HOW many generations are bred, and will ALWAYS be prone to this.

WE cause it, with their artificial environments, artificial diets, restrictions, ets. A glider that did this in the wild would die and not influence the gene pool. NO if's, and's, or but's.

Take responsibility for the fact that if not in captivity this WOULD NOT HAPPEN AT ALL.

5 years ago, most gliders that SMed, DIED.

Some still do.

I would sincerely hope that glider owners that read that thread are intelligent enough to see it for the warning that it is and get prepared. I saw it BEFORE it was posted, and because I rescue and forgo the pleasure and joy of joeys to spend my time and money on gliders NO ONE WANTS because they are SM, Rescue, Abused, Neglected, Special Needs...I, along with Mary Holcomb, and Lori "Bourbon" Hackworth, who was published in "Critters USA" on gliders a couple years ago, I on SM in Peggy Brewer's new Glider book - I WROTE the SM chapter-approved that thread to hopefully raise awareness enough that NO MORE WOULD DIE or SUFFER LIFELONG DAMAGE. WAY too many gliders have suffered and died. How many have you personally dealt with? How many owners have been in tears on the phone with you trying to get a collar on while their glider was bleeding and tissue was going necrotic?

ONE MORE TIME-THERE IS NO REASON TO FEAR SM if you bother to educate yourself and KNOW what to do, and take the necessary precautions. MOST gliders DON'T. MOST other domesticated animals we are used to DON'T DO THIS.

ANY AND ALL gliders have the POTENTIAL.

Not all will.

Until a glider does, or doesn't, there IS a 50/50 chance.

Three of us are working on something VERY special thing for the SGGA on this, to hopefully raise awareness...or if you like "put enough of a "scare"" into owners they THINK and PREPARE. Because even "Experienced" owners come online at 2 AM with a glider damaging itself crying "HELP".

Look at it this way...EVERYONE knows the cancer risk of smoking. Do some do it anyway? Yes. But they aren't surprised when they don't quit, and end up with it. It's too well publicized. It's still sad. The "scare" isn't enough to stop them, or if it is, they quit, or try to. It's the SAME THING with SM, only SM is MUCH EASIER to "stop". It's not an addiction. It only requires paying attention, insisting on pain meds, and having an E-Collar in your emergency kit.

WHY is that "so" scary, as to make someone not want to neuter? Prepare, and there isn't much to be "scared" OF. If someone can't set aside the time it takes to INSIST on pain meds to a vet, to have an Ecollar ready, to read a few posts on what to look/listen for, and to spend (or have someone spend) the first several hours watching (observing) the glider after a neuter-maybe it's not the right pet for that person.

They have 'truth' commercials for tobacco use-illustrating what CAN happen-cancer, emphysema, death, etc. No less should be done for Self Mutilation-and the glider doesn't HAVE a choice or understanding like a person does. They rely on their OWNER to save their lives.
_________________________
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#474095 - 02/10/08 01:58 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: ]
North_Nocturne Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 607
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I'd love to see a study about neutering procedures and results. As someone who had her gliders neutered with fantastic results using the pom removal/glue method, I'd love to know if the statistics actually reflect the advice usually given here at GC that pom removal increases the chance of SM.
_________________________
Elizabeth
gliders. Nocturne & Lark

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#474106 - 02/10/08 02:09 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: North_Nocturne]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Quote:
1) I am a science teacher


And I am an Accountant, and an Auditor. Numbers are ALL I deal with every day. The sample we have here on GC alone, and on anything NOT in posts, is inadequate to the extreme. Few of us deal with these gliders on a regular basis.

Quote:
I'd love to see a study about neutering procedures and results


So would a lot of us. So far, there has been ONE domestic study on diets with gliders, involving a whopping NINE animals, three diets, ONE of the gliders SMed and had to be removed from the study. So eight animals that finished.

Studies in their native land don't apply here, since diets, habitat, latitude, elevation, even bacteria are different here. Less is known about sugar gliders in America than just about anywhere else-they are not a priority for medical professionals.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#474141 - 02/10/08 03:46 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: Xfilefan]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
THe so called diet Study was 1 of 3 parts and was supported by the Glider Community. Part 2 and 3 of the study never was started.

In the end... all of the gliders died and the program was dropped. Nothing was ever told to the glider community as to why the study was dropped.

This is the first time that I have heard that the first glider who died(the White Tip from Sun Coast) .... cause of death was from Self Mutilation. All nine of the gliders were donated by Sun Coast and the Study was not done at their facility. The gliders were moved several times to different locations during the one year study.

Just about evertime I read about a Neuter having gone bad here on GC, the Poms have been totaly removed and with sutures or glue to close the surgical site. Most of the time no pain meds were sent home.

There is a Connection to SM with How the Neutering Procedure is bing done by the vet. read



Edited by Judie (02/10/08 04:09 PM)
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#474555 - 02/11/08 05:23 AM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: Judie]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Jen/7glider7,
I agree that a thorough study/compilation of data would be useful to the entire glider community. If you'd like, I'd be willing to compile the data on my web site and then forward the submitted data to you for analysis. Questions that I think should be included in the study are:
1) Name of Owner
2) Name of Glider
3) Glider's date out of pouch
4) Date of neutering
5) Name & address of veterinarian
6) Neuter type
*** a) poms on or off
*** b) laser or scalpel
7) Sutures or surgical glue used to close incision, or none used?
8) Pain meds administed by vet?
9) If so, Metacam or Torbuteral?
10) Pain meds sent home with glider?
11) If so, Metacam or Torbuteral?
12) If so, were pain meds administered at home?
13) Was an e-collar put on glider while still in veterinary care?
14) Was an e-collar put on once glider was home?
15) If an e-collar was put on, how long did glider wear it?
16) Was any other type of restraint used to prevent the glider from accessing the surgical site post-neuter?
17) Did self-mutilation occur?
18) If so, did glider survive?
19) How long post-neuter was it before the glider self mutilated or TRIED to self mutilate?
*** a) Immediately upon coming out of anesthsia
*** b) Within the first hour
*** c) Within the second hour
*** d) Within the fourth hour
*** e) Within the eighth hour
*** f) Within twenty-four hours

If anyone can think of other questions that should be added to the study, please let me know.


Edited by sugarglidersuz (02/12/08 05:37 AM)
Edit Reason: to add another suggested question
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#474764 - 02/11/08 01:00 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: sugarglidersuz]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
You might include whether it was a laser or scalpel surgery (just because some say the laser is safer, and I'd be curious to know dunno )
_________________________
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Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#474998 - 02/11/08 06:01 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: sugarlope]
Bubbles8i8 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 879
Loc: Northeast TN bordering VA/NC
Originally Posted By: xfilefan

Teresa, I stand with you. In fact, depending on the vet, and pain control, I would stand by the statement that the chances are higher than 50/50.


When you say there is a 50/50 chance of SM, that means 50% of all gliders SM after neuters.

You can't change a known fact of probability to suit your intent or explanation.

Does that make sense?

I agree that there is a chance any glider can SM after a neuter, but the chance is not 50/50 UNLESS 50% of gliders SM after neuters. If the percentage of gliders that SM after neuters is not 50%, then it is incorrect to say that all gliders have a 50/50 chance to SM after a neuter. The numbers HAVE to match or the statement is wrong.
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#475089 - 02/11/08 07:41 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: sugarlope]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: sugarlope
You might include whether it was a laser or scalpel surgery (just because some say the laser is safer, and I'd be curious to know dunno )
Good point, Gretchen. Thank you smile
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#475108 - 02/11/08 08:03 PM Re: Correct neuter stats are important [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
I'm gonna have to agree with Bubbles8i8 on this - 50% says to me, an educated person, in the science field, that if I neuter my males, 1/2 of them will SM.

When I had my boys done, I knew very little. Both came home in an e-collar, neither SM'ed.

I have two more scheduled in March. I am much more prepared now. But, I hear new owners, people you meet, other boards say, essentially - "Oh, I can't risk neutering my boy. We'll just let nature take it's course with him and her. Hope everything works out. The risks are just too high."

Well, while they might be high - they are not THAT high. 1/2 of all suggies neutered are not going to SM. Period.
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