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#488560 - 02/27/08 12:51 AM Is One twin being rejected???
Mellen Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
I have two twin girls from my bonded pair, Forrest and Bella. Over the past week I've noticed that one twin seems crabbier and is smaller. Tonight I went into feed them and the smaller twin was alone in the larger pouch that they all are usually in together. The parents and larger twin were together in the small pouch. I took the small twin to the pouch where the others were and neither parent seemed worried. Then, I put the smaller one in with the others and left the room. I came back later and they had left her alone again. To see if she was hungry, I offered the smaller (?abandoned/rejected) girl some HPW off my finger and she licked and licked and licked like she was very hungry. I put her in with mom and took the larger twin with me to see if she'd be let on her mother's nipple. Should I take the larger one back or maybe it will get rejected? What should I do??
_________________________
~Mary~

:glider: The Sisters: Kiki & Kira
:glider: The Young Couple: Louie & Jenga

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#488567 - 02/27/08 12:59 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
txsuggiemom
Unregistered


Do you have the supplies on hand to care for a rejected joey? I don't have joeys so I'm not much help.

This may help
http://www.suzsugargliders.com/handraisingajoey.htm


Edited by txsuggiemom (02/27/08 01:00 AM)
Edit Reason: add website

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#488570 - 02/27/08 01:00 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
Mellen Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
I just went back in and mom was carrying the smaller girl like she was nursing her. I didn't get too close so she wouldn't get upset. These girls are OOP 2-2-08. Any help would be appreciated. I'm carrying the larger twin in a bonding pouch for a bit longer so the littler one has a chance to nurse in peace. Should I have done anything differently or be watching for anything in particular.

Thanks
Mary
_________________________
~Mary~

:glider: The Sisters: Kiki & Kira
:glider: The Young Couple: Louie & Jenga

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#488571 - 02/27/08 01:02 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
Mellen Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
I have a small syringe but milk replacer.
Mary
_________________________
~Mary~

:glider: The Sisters: Kiki & Kira
:glider: The Young Couple: Louie & Jenga

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#488574 - 02/27/08 01:09 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Take out all of the pouches but one, so there is less likelyhood that one of the joeys will be left behind. Was the joey cold when you found her? Make sure the joey you are carrying gets back with mom and dad soon so that he has a chance to nurse also. At this age, they shouldn't be separated for very long at a time. See what happens with the joey once they only have one pouch.

Read up on Suz's website, she discusses signs of rejection and what to look for/what to do depending on the situation. Her contact numbers are also on her site if you feel like the joey might be rejected and need to know what to do, she is great to talk you through. hug2
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#488576 - 02/27/08 01:10 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
txsuggiemom
Unregistered


I would take the second pouch out of the cage as soon as you get the chance so that the mother can not leave the smaller suggie alone in a pouch.
Was the joey cold when you picked her up? If you feel that she's not getting enough milk you may want to try to supplement her. She will have to be warm before feeding and you should use a needle-less syringe and milk replacer.
I'm sorry I'm not much help, I'm sure someone more knowledgable will be alone soon. For now keep a close eye on the momma and babies to watch for anything else.

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#488581 - 02/27/08 01:23 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: ]
Mellen Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
She wasn't cold when I found her but was sucking on the fleece inside the pouch. I've read the page referenced above and mine look like the 4-6 week size. I'll take the small pouch out right away and check her again in a couple of hours. Also, I'll get the supplies to supplement the smaller one to help her catch up and hope that mom doesn't reject her. Your advice and the reference helped a lot. Thank you so very very much. They've always been such attentive parents so I was shocked to find the little girl alone.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Also, it means A LOT to have someone talk you through this and stay calm so you'll do the best possible for these sweeties.
Mary
_________________________
~Mary~

:glider: The Sisters: Kiki & Kira
:glider: The Young Couple: Louie & Jenga

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#488584 - 02/27/08 01:29 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
She may just be a smaller joey, also. It's good that she wasn't cold. If you see her trying to crawl out of the pouch or crying a lot, both would be signs that she is not getting enough milk. If you see ANY injuries on her, this is a big sign of rejection - you should remove her and call Suz. I hope she's ok and that it was just an accident that she got left behind. hug2
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#488615 - 02/27/08 05:54 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: sugarlope]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
You did a great job during the night! Taking the larger joey out for a while to give the smaller joey the opportunity to nurse was excellent clap I would recommend that you continue to do that at least 3-4 times a day until the smaller joey gets strong enough to fend for itself. You can offer the HPW to the larger joey while you have it out of the cage so it doesn't go hungry and make larger demands on the mother when put back in the cage. You may need to thin the HPW down a bit with Pedialyte or apple juice though. If you have any questions, feel free to call me:
home 440-953-0904
tollfree 866-399-4476
cell 440-520-4799

Moving this over to Breeding & Babies now...
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#488661 - 02/27/08 08:29 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
Mellen Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
This morning all four are together in their big pouch and both babies look fine. I didn't take them out individually though. I'm reading Suz's page, referenced above, again and will get the needed supplies on hand. Is there any reason not to supplement the smaller little girl? Also, what are the definite signs of rejection?
Thanks,
Mary
_________________________
~Mary~

:glider: The Sisters: Kiki & Kira
:glider: The Young Couple: Louie & Jenga

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#488741 - 02/27/08 10:08 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Mary,
The reason I recommend supplement feeding the larger joey and not the smaller one is because the smaller one will thrive better with the natural antibodies that the mother's milk provides. It is better in cases such as yours to supplement the larger joey giving the smaller joey a chance to nurse without competition.
Definite signs of rejection include, but are not limited to:
* Joey being left alone for longer than 15 minutes
* Joey climbing to top of nesting pouch repeatedly (joey is looking for food)
* Joey with injuries on face and/or body
* Joey found completely outside of nesting pouch cold and alone
* Joey's cry becoming weaker (almost more of a faint hiss than a distinct cry)
* Joey dehydrated (very dangerous and needs immediate care). To check for dehydration, gently pull up the skin just over the shoulder blades. The skin will tent up and should start immediately going down gradually. If the skin stays tented up or goes down very slowly, then the joey is dehydrated. Immediate force-feeding with Pedialyte, gliderade or water with a few drops of honey is needed in the case of dehydration. A trip to the vet for sub-q fluids may also be necessary.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#489185 - 02/27/08 06:08 PM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Mellen Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
Thanks so much Suz. I have the most of the supplies now and will supplement the larger girl tonight and let the little one nurse. I appreciate your generosity in sharing your numbers in addition to your time here on GC. Thanks and I'll keep you updated. Also, I'll check for dehydration as described.
Til later,
Mary
_________________________
~Mary~

:glider: The Sisters: Kiki & Kira
:glider: The Young Couple: Louie & Jenga

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#489544 - 02/28/08 12:55 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
Mellen Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
No dehydration and the smaller one is nursing when I brought the big girl back. I had them out together for pictures and the large one was latching onto the little sister as if to nurse, sometimes her ear, her back, her neck and they had just been with mom. The little one was in obvious discomfort/pain and would try to get away from her bigger sister. There are no bite marks afterward. This doesn't seem normal to me. Any thoughts or similar experiences? And I offered the bigger sister HPW on my finger after she'd been away from mom for 20-30 minutes and she didn't want it. I'll keep trying.
Thanks,
Mary
_________________________
~Mary~

:glider: The Sisters: Kiki & Kira
:glider: The Young Couple: Louie & Jenga

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#489592 - 02/28/08 06:03 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Mary,
Do you have a syringe (without needle) you can offer the HPW to the bigger sister with? Just put a drop on the edge of her lips. You may have to rub her nose a couple of times so that she laps and figures out that "Hey! There's food here."
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#489908 - 02/28/08 01:30 PM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Mellen Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
Suz,
Yes, I have a small syringe with blunt tip to try again. I've been taking the bigger girl out for 20-30 minutes twice a day and have her in my bonding pouch right now. She is rooting around whenever she's awake. I'm going to offer her some HPW before I put her back with her family.

And, I have all of the ingredients for joey formula except the booster milk. My pet store had puppy formula premixed in cans so I have one of those. Do you think that is adequate or should I get one of the other two mentioned on your page?

I've got the equipment for an incubator too. I should have been more prepared the other night so I don't want to make that mistake again!!

Overall, this has forced me to be more interactive with these two girls as I was being extra careful before. And I've learned a lot thanks to you and others on GC.

THANK YOU!!
'Til later,
Mary
_________________________
~Mary~

:glider: The Sisters: Kiki & Kira
:glider: The Young Couple: Louie & Jenga

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#490534 - 02/29/08 06:26 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: Mellen]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Mary,
The puppy formula is just fine, but you will need to freeze a significant portion of it because you'll never use it all before it goes by otherwise. To start out, since you've already been giving her the HPW, I would mix the Joey Formula 25% to HPW 75% for the first 2-3 days. Then, go 50/50 for 2-3 days, then Joey Formula 75% to HPW 25% for 2-3 days and finally 100% Joey Formula. If you don't taper it like that, you may find the joey getting bloated from the rapid change in foods.
Again, feel free to call me if you have questions. hug2
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#536501 - 04/25/08 10:32 AM Re: Is One twin being rejected??? [Re: sugarglidersuz]
Mellen Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 49
Loc: Minnesota
Just an update for anyone who is reading this thread: both my girls did really well with supplementation. They are both weaned now and live in a separate cage from mom and dad. They loved the supplementation and so I gave them some every other day or so as it helped me bond with them. Suz, you are the greatest! I have all of the rejection supplies on hand now!

Mary
_________________________
~Mary~

:glider: The Sisters: Kiki & Kira
:glider: The Young Couple: Louie & Jenga

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