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#4965 - 08/04/01 04:13 AM Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have been in contact with the Wombaroo company (for those not familiar with them they are located in Australia and make a wide range of milk replacers and some foods for their wildlife. They are a highly researched and well established company. I carry their milk replacer for Australian possums which was specifically formulated to include sugar gliders based on a scientific journal article on the composition of sugar glider milk.)<P>They carry a High Protein Supplement I recently found out they have been using for quite some time to replace the "High Protein Baby Cereal" called for in many Australian zoo recipes such as Leadbeater's mix. Since we cannot get the high protein baby cereal here in the states there were many modifications made to the original Leadbeater's recipe to accomodate us. I was excited to learn of the protein supplement's use as a viable alternative to get back more closely to the original recipe which zoos have been using successfully for decades and quickly contacted the company about it. I will post the response they gave me about their High Protein Supplement and its use in Leadbeater's Mix for sugar gliders.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="3"><BR>Clara wrote:<BR>> <BR>> Hello,<BR>> Currently I carry your possum milk replacers (for sugar gliders). I was<BR>> recently introduced to the high protein supplement as being suitable for<BR>> sugar gliders due to the lack of protein they often get here in the<BR>> states. On the package it says it can be sprinkled on fruit and such<BR>> but was suprized to learn it could be used to substitute for the "High<BR>> Protein Baby Cereal" called for in the zoo mixtures. With sugar gliders<BR>> we use Leadbeater's Mix but since the high protein baby cereal is not<BR>> available here, many modifications have been made to the original<BR>> recipe. (You can find more info here:<BR>> <A HREF="http://www.skinhorse.net/gliders/syd_diet.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.skinhorse.net/gliders/syd_diet.html</A> ) My question is exactly<BR>> how much of the protein supplement should be substituted into the<BR>> original Leadbeater's recipe. Any other additional information on your<BR>> product would also be greatly appreciated. Many thanks,<BR>> <BR>> Clara Clasen<BR>> Exotics Central<BR>> <A HREF="http://www.sugarglider.net" TARGET=_blank>http://www.sugarglider.net</A><BR>> ph# 361-595-5810<BR>------------------<P>Clara,<BR>The High Protein Baby Cereal (HPBC) referred to in the zoo recipe is made from Oat, wheat and soy flour and contains 19% protein. Our High Protein Supplement (HPS) is made from isolated soy and milk proteins and contains 52% protein. Because over half this protein is of milk origin its quality, as measured by amino acid composition, is superior to that<BR>in High Protein Baby Cereal.<BR> <BR>High Protein Supplement contains higher levels of vitamins, minerals and essential omega-3 fatty acids and can be substituted at the rate of 40% of High Protein Baby Cereal in any mixture.<P>For example, you can substitute 30g of our HPS for the 75g of HPBC in the Leadbeater's Mix.<P>I have attached the relevent page on HPS from the Wombaroo Milk Booklet.<BR>Regards, <P>Brian Rich<P>Attached Page:<P>SPECIALISED FOODS AND SUPPLEMENTS<P>Wild animals satisfy their nutritional needs by foraging for a variety of different foods. It is difficult to regularly supply a captive animal the diversity of foods found in its natural diet. Captive animals are usually fed diets composed of foods that are easily accessible. Take care when selecting food types to avoid dietary deficiencies or imbalances due to a lack of variety in the diet. Cycle the level of nutrition throughout the year. Start increasing the nutritional value of the food above maintenance level as the breeding season approaches. Continue offering food of high nutritional value during the breeding season then reduce it back to maintenance level once the young have become independent.<P>Wombaroo makes a high protein supplement to fortify the diets of fruit and nectar eating animals and specialised foods for small carnivorous animals and reptiles. These products have been formulated to bridge the nutritional gaps that arise from feeding inadequate diets.<P>The well-being of captive animals is influenced by the quality of their environment as well as their diet. The captive environment should represent, as near as practicable, that found in the wild. The enclosure should be as large as possible and contain the necessary features such as sand, soil, leaf litter, rocks, branches and secure hiding places that the animal would normally encounter in the wild. Animals kept inside should have a light source that provides the appropriate wavelengths to maintain health. Be sure that animals kept inside are exposed to seasonal changes in photo-period (hours of daylight) and both seasonal and daily changes in temperature. Changes in photo-period, temperature and composition of diet all play important roles in the regulation an animal's biology.<P>HIGH PROTEIN SUPPLEMENT3,56<P>This product was originally developed as a protein supplement for captive flying foxes. However it is now used extensively by animal carers and keepers as a protein booster in the diet of many fruit and nectar eating animals. The sources of protein in this supplement are soy protein isolate, whey protein isolates of high lactalbumin content and hydrolysed casein. Together these ingredients produce a protein mix with an excellent amino acid composition. The supplement is fortified with vitamins, minerals and the essential fatty acids a-linolenic acid, EPA and DHA. Product palatability and protein quality make it a useful food additive to boost the protein level in the diet of debilitated animals.<P>PROTEIN REQUIREMENTS: Providing protein intake supplies adequate levels of all essential amino acids then maintenance protein requirement for mammals ranges from about 1.5g to 6g per kg-0.75 per day. Protein requirement is related to the amount of energy expended. If there is no gain in body weight then energy intake can be substituted for energy expended. An average value of 6mg of protein per kJ of energy intake can be used to estimate maintenance protein requirement. For Wombaroo this translates into 90mg per kJ of energy or 4g per kg-0.75 per day. The amount of supplement needed will depend on the protein quantity and quality in the existing diet and the species of animal.<P>FRUGIVOROUS ANIMALS: Fruit can represent a large proportion of the diet for some animals and birds. To ensure that there is sufficient quality protein in their diet disperse 2 heaped teaspoons of Wombaroo High Protein Supplement over each 100g of fruit.<P>FLYING FOXES: Disperse 2 heaped teaspoons of Wombaroo High Protein Supplement over 300g of fresh cut apple and feed this quantity to each adult animal. Increase the amount of supplement to 4 heaped teaspoons when feeding pregnant or nursing females and juveniles.<P>OTHER USES: Wombaroo High Protein Supplement can be substituted for the High Protein Cereal used in the many food recipes for animals and birds. You only need to use half the quantity of Wombaroo High Protein Supplement because of its superior protein quality and higher concentration.<BR></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There are further instructions on the back of the package dealing with feeding to specific animals. As soon as I get a copy I will post them. A friend of mine has been sprinkling a little of the protein supplement (as directed on the package) on his sugar glider's fruit for the past few months because his glider will not eat Leadbeater's Mix or any other sources of protein except monkey biscuits and insects. This glider is a young rescue guessing about 7 to 9 months oop, had at least four different homes before I placed him with my friend, so the poor thing is extremely picky about food but seems to favor the supplement over the fruit. He is doing much better now and we've seen a huge increase in his activity level since feeding it to him.<P>I now leave this open for discussion...<P>

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#4966 - 08/04/01 07:11 AM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Clara<BR>I asked my Wombaroo contact friend here in the USA last year about this product "Wombaroo High Protein Supplement" & another "Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food". <BR>At that time he did not think that they could be shipped into the USA (it just took a little while of bugging & looking into specific import laws)<BR> <BR>I also use this product & can order it for those interested.<P>I have not had a chance to discuss this with <BR>Dr Bruce & Bourbon yet & did not get a chance to at the SGGA (under the very sad circumstances).<BR>I also have a few of the Wombaroo booklets to those interested.<P> "Wombaroo"<BR>High Protein Supplement<P>Gaurenteed Analysis<BR>Min Crude Protein 50%<BR>Min Crude Fat 12%<BR>Max Fibre 5%<BR>Min Calcium (Ca) 1.3%<BR>Max Calcium (Ca) 1.8%<BR>Min Phosphorus (P) 1.1%<BR>Max Phosphorus (P) 1.5%<BR>Min salt (NaCl) 0.4%<BR>Max Salt (NaCl) 0.8%<BR>Maz Fluorine (F) 1mg/kg<BR>Min Vitamin A 10mg/kg<BR>Min Vitamin D3 90ug/kg<BR>Min Vitamin B2 10mg/kg<BR>Min Magnesium (Mg) 600mg/kg<BR>Min Ferrous Iron (Fe++) 75mg/kg<BR>Min Zinc (Zn) 15mg/kg<BR>Min Manganese (Mn) 10mg/kg<BR>Min Copper (Cu) 5 mg/kg<BR>Min Iodine (I) 600ug/kg<BR>Min Selenium (Se) 150ug/kg<P>Ingredients: Whey and Soy protein isolates, hydrolysed casein,maltodextrin,vegetable oils, vitamins and minerals.<P>(250g NET) Made In Australia<P>"Possums and Gliders"<BR>For animals that eat fruit: Disperse 2 to 5g of Supplement over each 100g of fruit offered. <BR>For animals fed plain biscuit: Prepare a 25% w/v suspension of the product in water and use at the rate of 10 ml per 25g of biscuit.<P><p>[This message has been edited by POCKETS (edited 08-04-2001).]
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#4967 - 08/04/01 08:12 AM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Clara: You indicated that the High Protein Supplement has been use for quite some time<BR>to replace the "High Protein Baby Cereal" called for in many Australian zoo recipes such as Leadbeater's mix. The company which makes it indicates that it is made from isolated soy and milk proteins and contains 52% protein. <P>Some questions that come to my mind include:<P>1)How long have they been using the High Protein Supplement?<BR>2)What kind of research/studies were/have been done to determine the safety of their<BR>high protein supplement?<BR>3)what type of tanks do they use in the processing of the SPI (aluminum or stainless steel?)<BR>4)Are they tracking deaths of gliders that have occurred since the high protein<BR>supplement was introduced into their diet to determine whether the high protein<BR>supplement may have been the cause or a contributing factor in those gliders' deaths?<P>My concerns about this high protein supplement are threefold:<P>1)the high protein supplement's being made using isolated soy protein (the use of milk<BR>proteins does not concern me at this time) <P>2) Type of tanks used in the soy/soy protein isolate processing procedure (aluminum vs. stainless steel).<P>3)the fact that the high protein supplement contains 52% protein. Were dtudies done to determine if this amount of protein was O.K. or might be too high thereby causing problems for the gliders? <P>Here's why I am concerned about the use of isolated soy protein & the fact that the<BR>product contains 52% protein:<P>a) isolated soy protein - soy protein isolate (SPI) is the key ingredient in most soy foods/products that mimick meat and dairy products. SPI production takes place in<BR>industrial factories where a slurry of soy beans is first mixed with an alkaline solution to remove fibre, then precipitated and separated using an acid wash and, finally, neutralized in an alkaline solution. ACID WASHING IN ALUMINUM TANKS LEACHES HIGH LEVELS OF ALUMINUM INTO THE FINAL PRODUCT.<P>The resultant curds are spray- dried at high temperatures to produce a high-protein<BR>powder. Much of the trypsin inhibitor content can be removed through high-temperature processing, but not all. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein isolate can vary as much as fivefold. In rats, even low-level trypsin inhibitor SPI feeding results in reduced weight gain compared to controls. But HIGH-TEMPERATURE PROCESSING HAS the unfortunate SIDE-EFFECT OF SO DENATURING OTHER PROTEINS IN SOY AS TO RENDER THEM LARGELY INEFFECTIVE. That's why animals on soy feed need lysine supplements for normal<BR>growth. NITRATES, which ARE POTENT CARCINOGENS, ARE FORMED DURING SPRAY-DRYING, & A TOXIN CALLED LYSINOALANINE IS FORMED DURING ALKALINE PROCESSING. Numerous artificial flavourings, particularly MSG, are added to soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein products to mask their strong "beany" taste and to impart the flavour of meat.<P>In feeding experiments, the use of SPI increased requirements for vitamins E, K, D and B12 and created deficiency symptoms of calcium, magnesium, manganese, molybdenum,<BR>copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid remaining in these soy products greatly inhibits zinc <BR>and iron absorption; test animals fed SPI develop enlarged organs, particularly the<BR>pancreas and thyroid gland, and increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver. In spite of poor results in animal feeding trials, the soy industry continues to sponsor studies designed to show that soy protein products can be used in human diets as a replacement for traditional foods. An example is "Nutritional Quality of Soy Bean Protein Isolates: Studies in Children of<BR>Preschool Age", sponsored by the Ralston Purina Company. A group of Central American children suffering from malnutrition was first stabilized/brought into better<BR>health by feeding them native foods, including meat and dairy products. Then, for a two-week period, these traditional foods were replaced by a drink made of soy protein<BR>isolate and sugar. All nitrogen taken in and all nitrogen excreted was measured in truly<BR>Orwellian fashion: the children were weighed naked every morning, and all excrement<BR>and vomit gathered up for analysis. The researchers found that the children retained<BR>nitrogen and that their growth was "adequate", so the experiment was declared a success. Whether the children were actually healthy on such a diet, or could remain so over a long period was not determined. The researchers were only looking for a short-term experiment (2 weeks) in order to have a study to point to that would validate their position on the beneficial use of soy. The researchers, however, did note that the children vomited "occasionally", usually after finishing a meal; that over half suffered from periods of moderate diarrhea;<BR>that some had upper respiratory infections; and that others suffered from rash and fever.<BR>It should be noted that the researchers did not dare to use soy products to help the<BR>children recover from malnutrition, and were obliged to supplement the soy-sugar mixture with nutrients largely absent in soy products - notably, vitamins A, D and B12,<BR>iron, iodine and zinc.<P>b)ALUMINUM is a protoplasmic poison and a pernicious and persistent neurotoxin. No living systems use aluminium as part of a biochemical process. It has a tendency to accumulate in the brain and bones. It is considerably less toxic than mercury, arsenic, lead or cadmium, but it appears to be more persistent than most of them. The danger is one that only manifests itself over long periods of time. The PRINCIPAL SYMPTOM OF ALUMINUM POISONING is the loss of intellectual function; forgetfulness, inability to concentrate, and in extreme cases, full blown dementia & is believed to be a contributing factor in Alzheinmers Disease. It is also known to CAUSE BONE SOFTENING & BONE MASS LOSS, KIDNEY & OTHER <BR>SOFT TISSUE DAMAGE, & IN LARGE DOSES, CAN CAUSE CARDIAC ARREST. PREGNANT WOMEN & THOSE who are BREASTFEEDING their children SHOULD AVOID ALL SOURCES CONTAINING ALUMINUM IF POSSIBLE. Apparently when iron, calcium, magnesium and zinc levels drop, the uptake of aluminium worsens. Taking mineral supplements seems to be a good idea as absorption of aluminum is dramatically reduced by the presence of iron in the body. As toxi effect of aluminumit is cumulative, slow acting and extremely persistent, older people are particularly at risk to its toxic effects. THIS CONCERNS ME AS FAR AS PREGNANT AND/OR NURSING FEMALE GLIDERS & THEIR JOEYS are concerned as well as POSSIBLE CONSEQUENCES FOR OLDER GLIDERS. Also, we are fighting to help our gliders maintain good strong bones/appropriate bone density. The last thing we need to worry about is possible bone softening and bone mass loss (remember the #1 enemy of gliders is HLP) if this company uses aluminum tanks in their processing of the soy/SPI. If they are using stainless steel or cast iron tanks, then the aluminum concern would not be a concern. <P>For those interested, some websites and pages containing information on Aluminium as a neurotoxin include:<P><A HREF="http://student.biology.arizona.edu/ad/neurotoxic.html" TARGET=_blank>http://student.biology.arizona.edu/ad/neurotoxic.html</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.healing.org/Child-TOC.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.healing.org/Child-TOC.html</A><BR><A HREF="http://trufax.org/mercury/alum1.html" TARGET=_blank>http://trufax.org/mercury/alum1.html</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.conterra.com/ehp/aluminum.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.conterra.com/ehp/aluminum.htm</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.hints-n-tips.com/adandal.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hints-n-tips.com/adandal.htm</A><BR><A HREF="http://phys4.harvard.edu/~wilson/ARTICLE5.html" TARGET=_blank>http://phys4.harvard.edu/~wilson/ARTICLE5.html</A><P>c)too much protein - studies done have shown that excessive protein can put more demands<BR>on the kidneys than they can sometimes handle during the metabolic & elimination<BR>process. Believe it or not, too much protein can also possibly contribute to osteoporosis<BR>(bone deterioration). Lastly, excessive protein may contribute to heart disease by<BR>providing more kcal than are desireable as well as causing increased levels of saturated<BR>fats & cholesterol. So providing too much protein on a regular basis can be detrimental except under certain<BR>circumstances such as during pregnancy, after surgery, during infections or times of high stress. During such times, an increase in protein is often needed to either help<BR>rebuild/replace lost tissue, manufacture antibodies to fight infection or to compensate for excessive nitrogen being excreted due to stress/emotional trauma.<P>SORRY MY POST IS SO LONG but these are questions/concerns that I would want to have addressed before considering their product.<BR> <P>

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#4968 - 08/04/01 08:55 AM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the analysis of what's in the High Protein Supplement, Pockets. While it appears they're compensating for some need to increase vitamin/mineral levels due to the SPI (Soy Protein Isolate), the Ca/P ratio concerns me. It's something I would question them about given the need Gliders have for calcium. I also note that no amount of B-12, E & K have been added to compensate for possible increased requirements of these vitamins due to the use of the SPI. Another concern over use of the SPI is that studies showed that test animals regularly fed SPI developed enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver. Dp you and/or Clara think Wombaroo might be willing to provide studies about these issues? Hopefully, Wombaroo has done studies on the vitamin/mineral issue as well as the possible pancreas, thyroid & liver problems that can crop up with use of SPI on a regular basis. I'd want to know how the company researchers determined what increased percentage of these vitamins/minerals needed to be added to their product to protect the health of gliders & why they have not considered adding B-12, E & K to compensate for possible increased requirements of them because of the use of the SPI.

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#4969 - 08/04/01 09:02 AM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
I have contacted them in OZ & related your excellent questions - It may take a few days to recieve a reply as they are several hours ahead of our time.<P>Sure am glad your on this board!<P>Wombaroo's milk replacer's have been trial tested by wildlife caretakers in Oz & according to my info, "Wombaroo milk replacer" is unsurpassed in the world.<P>Glider's as well as other Australian marsupials have all been found to suffer from nutrient deficiencies on other marsupial milk replacer's.<BR>They suffer - patchy thin fur, slower growth rates,& failure to thrive, on other milk replacers.<P>A newly released Australian book out is <BR>"Don't Step Backwards" by Linda Staker, <BR>The millenium edition 2<BR>A comprehensive compilation of data pertaining to: The handrearing,rehabilitation & care of marsupials.<BR> Dr Bruce Ross looked thru my copy at the SGGA & stated it has alot of real good info for marsupials.<p>[This message has been edited by POCKETS (edited 08-04-2001).]
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#4970 - 08/04/01 09:57 AM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have also asked wombaroo some additional questions. I can't find my wombaroo booklet at the moment, but I do know scientific studies were consulted in the making of this product as with all their products...(Pockets can you look in the back of the book and find references 3 and 56 for me?) By the way, I also happened to be one of the ones that bugged Wombaroo to export the High Protein Supplement and Carnivore diet because I believe them to be a highly reputable company. Many zoos and rehabbers use their products in Australia, this is how I heard about the company in the first place several years back when I was asking what the Australian solutions to feeding captive sugar gliders were. Like I said, I am looking forward to this being another alternative to getting gliders the proteins they need as they are still dying from the lack of here in the states.

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#4971 - 08/04/01 11:35 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Clara<BR>There are 62 reference sources in the Wombaroo booklet that I have.<P>3- Brody. S. 1945 "Bioenergetics and Growth". Collier Macmillan. London<P>56 - Smuts, D.B. 1935. The relationship between the basal metabolism and the endogenous,nitrogen metabolism, with particular reference to the estimation of the maintenance requirement of protein.<BR>J. Nutr. 9: 403-433.<P>I do have several of the reference books that are to referred to in this pamplet & several contain studies.<P><p>[This message has been edited by POCKETS (edited 08-04-2001).]
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#4972 - 08/04/01 12:51 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You guys never cease to amaze me!! I am in awe at your knowledge and research! I do research, but fall short of what you all do! When I read Clara first message I was thrilled to possibly find something so I don't have to feed cricket (Ellen & Bruce's experience) But...then Glideroo had all these great points too. Please keep us posted on this product. <P>Pockets (I was so pleased to have met you, I am in awe...) you said you have been using it? How long? I'm very interested here. Glideroo...you are terrific! Keep us posted on all your research, I love reading posts like this!! No arguing...just cold hard facts.<P>I love you guys...<P>Suzy, Sarina/Sydney []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/blush.gif[/]

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#4973 - 08/04/01 04:51 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


learn something new everyday. thank you for the info. and the links. i love to learn and all the thinks i get on this sight. help me out alot. pls keep us posted on whats going on.

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#4974 - 08/05/01 09:25 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I received a response from Wombaroo which will answer many of your questions.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="3"><BR>The isolated soy protein used in our High Protein Supplement (HPS) is made by Protein Technologies in the USA. It is human food grade quality and is present at about 36% by weight in the HPS.<P>This product has been used as a protein supplement in the diet of the 3 species of flying fox, sugar, squirrel and feather-tail glider, brush-tailed and ring-tailed possum, red panda, 3 species of bandicoot and several species of small primates.<P>HPS has been used for over 15 years by wildlife carers, public and private zoos and academic institutions with exotic animal collections without any adverse reactions being reported.<P>Any fears associated with phytoestrogen, antiprotease or phytic acid activity should be allayed as the process of isolating soy protein greatly reduces the amount of these substances. It must be also be remembered that HPBC contains soy flour which contains substantially higher levels of the above substances.<P>Although HPS contains 52% protein, if used as recommended it only adds from 5-10% protein to an animals diet. <P>Some time ago we had cause to inform the avicultural community of the properties of isolated soy protein. I have attached a copy of that information.<P>Regards<BR>Brian Rich<P>Attached Info:<P>WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE RIGHT SOY PRODUCTS?<P>Unprocessed or partially processed legumes, oil seeds, and cereal grains contain varying concentrations of at least three groups of chemicals that can have anti-nutrient properties. These substances are phytic acid, antiproteases and phytoestrogens.<P>Phytic acid is hexaphosphate myoinositol and is a major phosphorous compound found in plants. It is particularly abundant in oil seeds, legumes and cereal grains. Phytic acid can bind essential minerals such as calcium, zinc and iron thus making these elements unavailable for absorption1. Many animals have intestinal phytase, an enzyme that breaks down phytic acid, however little is known about the activity of this enzyme in birds. Interestingly, phytic acid is an essential substance found in bird red cells2. It binds to haemoglobin and assists in the release of oxygen from the red cells. Phytic acid in bird red cells is probably not of dietary origin but is made in the red cell from inositol.<P>Antiproteases are proteins present in oil seeds, legumes and cereal grains that inactivate protein digesting enzymes. One particular antiprotease inhibits the production of the enzyme trypsin in the intestine of birds and animals. Trypsin is prepared in the intestine from pancreatic secretions and breaks down proteins in the food into smaller digestible units. The dietary effect of trypsin inhibition results in a decrease in protein digestion and a reduction in the availability of amino acids. This can translate into poor growth. The role of antiproteases in seeds is to prevent premature germination. The antiproteases are inactivated when the seed enters a warm, moist, dark environment. These conditions apply below ground in the spring or in the crop of granivorous birds.<P>Phytoestrogens are a diverse group of plant-derived substances that may have oestrogenic activity in animals. These compounds may be implicated in reproductive and development abnormalities, feminisation of males, low fertility and high infant mortality. Soybeans contain genistein, a weakly oestrogenic substance, that appears to suppress the growth of a wide range of cancer cells3. The cause and effect data relating phytoestrogens to specific diseases is inconclusive and it is difficult to say whether they represent a real problem in birds. <P>Of course these anti-nutrients are only present in any quantities in the cheaper unprocessed or partially processed soy products such as soy offal. These soy products may be unwittingly used by manufacturers trying to make cheap bird foods or people that prepare their own hand-rearing mixes.<P>Isolated soy protein is used by reputable manufacturers as a source of protein in bird foods as well as foods for human consumption. Isolated soy protein contains about 90% protein, and although a little light on methionine is an excellent source of the other essential amino acids. Isolated soy protein is a considerably more expensive raw material, however it contains little anti-nutrient activity. This is because isolated soy protein is heat treated to inactivate antiproteases, extracted with solvents that remove up to 90% of phytoestrogens and is mixed with a small amount of a calcium salt to bind any residual phytic acid4.<P>Bird or animal foods that contain properly prepared isolated soy protein and additional methionine present a protein profile that is nutritionally sound. Unfortunately this useful protein source continues to be maligned, particularly by people with little knowledge of the subject. Manufacturers that advertise products as being 'soy free' display their ignorance of the soy processing industry while continuing to promote the myth about soy.<P>If processed soy is so bad, why does the National Research Council, an eminent authority on animal nutrition, recommend its use in reference diets for poultry and other animals5? <P>References<P>1. The Major Nutrients in "Principles of Biochemistry- Mammalian Biochemistry". pp 638. Eds. E.M.Smith, R.L.Hill, I.R.Lehman, R.J.Lefkowitz, P. Handler & A. White.<P>2. Haemoglobin and the Chemistry of Respiration in "Principles of Biochemistry- Mammalian Biochemistry". pp 118. Eds. E.M.Smith, R.L.Hill, I.R.Lehman, R.J.Lefkowitz, P. Handler & A. White.<P>3. Soybean And Your Health. Eds. M.& V. Messina. Avery Publishing Group, New York 1994.<P>4. Missouri Soybean Merchandising Council, Jefferson City Mo. Vol 1, No2.<P>5. National Research Council (1994). Nutrient requirements of poultry. Washington D.C. National Academy Press.<P>PASSWELL PTY LTD<BR>A.C.N. 008 137 175<BR>8 Oborn Road Mount Barker 5251<BR></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

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#4975 - 08/05/01 09:46 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


He also sent a typical analysis per kg of Wombaroo HPS, which goes into more detail than the guaranteed analysis:<P>Protein 530g <BR>Vitamin B2 10mg <BR>Calcium 15g<BR>Fat 125g <BR>Vitamin B6 12mg <BR>Phosphorus 11g<BR>Carbohydrate 190g <BR>Vitamin B12 150ug <BR>Potassium 4g<BR>ME 18MJ <BR>Pantothenic Acid 75mg <BR>Sodium 2g<BR>Vitamin E 75mg <BR>Folic Acid 5mg <BR>Magnesium 800mg<BR>Vitamin A 10mg <BR>Biotin 600ug <BR>Iron 80mg<BR>Vitamin D3 100ug <BR>Choline 600mg <BR>Manganese 25mg<BR>Vitamin K 10mg <BR>Inositol 400mg <BR>Zinc 25mg<BR>Vitamin C 200mg <BR>Nicotinamide 200mg <BR>Copper 5mg<BR>Vitamin B1 30mg Iodine 600ug<BR>Selenium 150ug<P>

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#4976 - 08/05/01 09:58 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was using this product for poss a little while until i changed his diet. im sure thats what it was, i was ordering it from a company that gets it straight from wombaroo in adelaide.<BR>has anyone spoken to wires about it?<BR>(wildlife information and rescue) they know alot about this sort of thing.

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#4977 - 08/06/01 06:32 AM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Clara: the guaranteed analysis shows they are now adding B-12, E & K to the supplement which is good as it means they addressed the issue regarding an increased need for these vitamins due to the use of the Isolated Soy Protein.<P>I also see that Wombaroo gets the isolated soy protein from a U.S. company called Protein Technologies. However, I still feel it's important to find out what type of tanks (aluminum, stainless steel, cast iron?) are used by Protein Technologies in the processing of the isolated soy protein <BR>as ACID WASHING IN ALUMINUM TANKS LEACHES HIGH LEVELS OF ALUMINUM INTO THE FINAL PRODUCT which could cause aluminum poisoning problems with those toxic effects not being noted for years since the toxic effects of aluminum is cumulative, slow acting and extremely persistent.<P>In literature Wombaroo sent out to the agricultural community regarding isolated soy protein, one of the things stated was:<BR>"Isolated soy protein is a considerably more expensive raw material, however it contains little anti-nutrient activity. This is because isolated soy protein is heat treated to inactivate antiproteases, extracted with solvents that remove up to 90% of phytoestrogens and is mixed with a small amount of a calcium salt to bind any residual phytic acid4." What are the solvents used? Are any of them known to be carcinogenic in nature? Also the spray-drying procedure used at high temperatures to turn the curds into a high-protein powder has the unfortunate side effect of forming and/or producing NITRATES which ARE KNOWN TO BE POTENT CARCINOGENS. Additionally, during alkaline processing, a slurry of soy beans is first mixed with an alkaline solution to remove fibre, then precipitated and separated using an acid wash and, finally, neutralized in an alkaline solution. During this process, a TOXIN CALLED LYSINOALANINE IS FORMED. Does Wombaroo have any studies with respect to possible carcinogenic exposure of animals on the isolated soy protein over a prolonged period of time?<P>What about the concern over studies which have shown that test animals regularly fed isolated soy protein tend to develop enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver. Does Wombaroo or Protein Technologies have any info and/or studies with respect to this issue?<P>Being the die-hard person that I am, these are questions that still need to be answered before I would feel comfortable in using the high protein supplement.<P>

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#4978 - 08/06/01 11:59 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Great material. I too will continue to feed frozen mice and different meats for protein until I lose my discomfort over Soy protein. The BML is generally ignored by my gliders so I suppliment with sprinkling with the vitamins and calcium. Thanks for the excellent material, you guys are awesome.

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#4979 - 08/07/01 01:50 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


ALUMINUM is a protoplasmic poison and a pernicious and persistent neurotoxin. No living systems use aluminium as part of a biochemical process. <P>What percentage is dangerous? How much will poison a glider? Do you have to eat several aluminum frying pans to get sick? How much comes from the environment? should we stop using aluminum to cook on? What about airplanes are they spreading it through the air? After all they heat up coming through the atmosphere. All cars are now full of aluminum, should we stop driving cars? Well that might be a good idea. The abatoirs use a lot of aluminum to process meat. Wow the possibilities. :}

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#4980 - 08/07/01 06:00 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Be nice Snakeman! The average person in the industrialized nations ingests a minimum of 30 to 50 milligrams of aluminum metal per day which doesn't seem like a lot. However, you need to remember that aluminum poisoning<BR>only manifests itself over prolonged periods of time & that regular daily ingestion of even small amounts eventually can lead to a cumulative load of aluminum in the body that may eventually reach a critical level. <P>What's so insidious about aluminum poisoning is exactly the fact that the toxic effect of aluminum is cumulative, slow acting and extremely persistent with the effects manifesting themselves as people age. <P>If Protein Technologies uses aluminum tanks in the acid washing process of soy, the very acid washing process causes high levels of aluminum from the tanks to leach out into the final soy product. Since these aluminum levels are much higher than normal, & if an person or animal is regularly fed the soy product, reason would dictate that the cumulative effect could be much more serious. Might this not be very dangerous and/or possibly deadly for gliders? toxic effects of aluminum include not only mental confusion but CAUSE BONE SOFTENING, BONE MASS LOSS, KIDNEY & OTHER SOFT TISSUE DAMAGE, & IN LARGE DOSES, CAN CAUSE CARDIAC ARREST. <P>Since we are always concerned about our gliders' bones, the risk of possible bone softening/bone mass loss as well as kidney & other soft tissue damage becomes greater if the acid washing of the soy was done in aluminum tanks. I, therefore, feel it's crucial to know whether this company called Protein Technologies uses aluminum tanks in the processing of the soy that goes into the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement.

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#4981 - 08/07/01 10:31 PM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glideroo, if you want to find out more about Protein Technologies, I suggest you go to their website: <A HREF="http://www.protein.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.protein.com</A><BR>This is not a little company, it's a division of DuPont actually. You might want to try to contact them with your concerns about their human-grade isolated soy protein product. <A HREF="http://www.protein.com/Contact.nsf/frmCU!OpenForm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.protein.com/Contact.nsf/frmCU!OpenForm</A>

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#4982 - 08/08/01 09:19 AM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gee and all this time I thought it was just senior moments.

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#4983 - 08/13/01 03:32 AM Re: Wombaroo (Modified) Leadbeater's Mix [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I spoke to Wombaroo again and to tell you the truth they thought all this concern over soy protein killing gliders was silly. The protein supplement they carry has been used by zoos and wildlife rehabbers for all different types of animals for over <B>15 years</B> with no problems. They have a wonderful reputation in Australia as being top of the line with their research and products. They also pointed out that humans have been consuming the very same isolated soy protein made by Protein Technologies for a lot longer.<P>Even if not a substitute for the "High Protein Baby Cereal" used in the original leadbeater's mix this protein supplement should certainly be looked at as an addition to the diet of gliders who are picky eaters and won't eat BML, insects, or some of the other things which are so important to providing them with the protein they need to stay alive.

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