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#5069 - 03/19/01 04:47 PM Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :))
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
<P> I have worked with many biters, and the biters I do work with, or work with their owners with, are generally 2nd, 3rd, 4th or<BR>more home gliders, whose biting has given the owner reason or in their eyes just cause to contiune moving them on. I have yet to find a biter that can not be taught to trust, as long as the owners are willing to look at their gliders, and really feel and understand what they have already been through.<P> The abused gliders only have the biting and crabbing as their only defense. When You can look into their eyes, and see the fear, there is no other reason for it. Fear is a very powerful emotion, and most of the gliders I have worked with, it may be their only emotion that have been able to feel.<P> When breeders (licensed or not) sells a glider, not many of them spend the time to explain to the new owners as to the proper way to handle them, most are under the ages of 3-4 months oop,and they hadn't hit that nipping stage yet. I have seen many breeders say.. that glider was sweet when it left here, only to have it returned a couple of months later because it was biting, or worse yet, the new owners trying everything they can to stop the biting themselves, the only ways they know, and many times those ways cause more fear.<P> When the average owners gets a baby, and that baby reaches the "nippy" stage (not all gliders experience this), the owners feel, frustrated, they feel the glider hates them, is possessed, is mean, and many times feel it was something they have done. All they know is they want that glider to love them again. What happens with many of these gliders, is the nipping turns to biting, As they get older, their jaws get stronger and the teeth get sharper, many people can not handle this, so on to a new home, the stress of a new home, and the determination of the new owner gives way for even more punishment for being afraid. By the time that glider has bitten 6 months a year, off to another home, now the biting gets more difficult, cause we are carrying the abuses from the past owners. The next owner never knows what that glider has already had to endure. Many times don't even think about it. So they too feel the frustrations as before, thinking the glider just don't like them, or is mean. Now the biting gets worse.. it moves into a pit bull biter. These by far are the hardest to teach to trust, as the abuse usually has been very<BR>consistant, and they have found that biting makes the owners leave them alone. The pit bull biters will sink their teeth in, shake their bodies, to get in deeper. When they find this doesn't work, then they will learn the lunging at the sound of someone at the door, or coming into the room, where even feeding them becomes near impossible for the average owner. So again off to another home. The problem with these guys is they are sold<BR>cheaper, or given free, so again off to an inexperienced home, and led into more abuse. Till finally they fall into the hands of someone that truely understands them. Or the the least someone who trys. Trust is something these guys don't know, all they<BR>know is fear.<P> Over the years I have had many an argument with people who tell me that some gliders are just naturally mean, they are born this way, they will never learn to trust. When those people take the time, to really work with a problem glider, they also find, that it too can be taught to trust. But you as the owner have to want to understand that glider, understand the baggage it carries into your home. I myself, have not found that glider yet. What I have found are owners who don't know, owners that don't imagine what life may have been like as their glider. <P> Imagine a glider 2 years old being shifted to 9 different homes, imagine a glider 1.5 and already being in 4, if these gliders were nice and sweet, they wouldn't have been shifted that many times. With Steves Glider alone, she was taken from the breeder (maybe) sent to a petshop, sold, sent back to the petshop, where she is now with Steve, now that is assuming it went from the breeder to the petshop. breeders don't sell their sweet glider to petshops, usually they are the ones that they can not sell for full price. So how many homes was that glider in prior to? we don't know, but at the minimum, we are looking at a glider that is at LEAST 3 years oop (age is unknown) , who is in at least her 5th home.<P> She hasn't been given the chance to trust, or count on a stable enviroment. These gliders many times do take longer to learn to<BR>trust you, and sometimes longer to begin building a bond, (by the way which comes after trust), but once they do, it is (in my<BR>opinion) a much stronger, more solid bond, than raising it from a baby. As they have the one person, they can count on. These gliders, once the trust has been built, may still fear the outside world, sights, sounds, movements of certain moves. But they learn to trust you, and you do become everything in the<BR>world to them. <P> Gliders don't bite because they are mean, Gliders bite because they know it works, because it is the only defense they have.<P> I have 2 in my home now, that have become permanant residents.<BR>They are the 2 I refered to earlier.<BR>Buddy, 9th home, he is 2 years oop. A pit bull biter, lunger, he would attack the cage when someone entered the room, after 9<BR>months, is a pocket baby, he takes food from my hands, licks me even if nothing is there, glides to me, but when he hears a sound in the other room, still freaks, but he gets to me as fast as he can and dives into my shirt, he knows his name, comes when I call him, and is just now allowing others to pet him in his pouch. Time with him, will only hope he gets over his enviromental fear, but he KNOWS he can trust me to love him and protect him.<BR>BB is an interesting one, 5th home, 1.5 years oop, constant crabber mixed with crying, couldn't touch his pouch or cage, when he bit he sunk in, twisted his head, and pulled without releasing. He would attack the pouch long after you had touched and released it. We found out he had paradontal disease, medicated him, and 4 weeks later is a little sweetheart, crabs a very tiny bit the first time you enter the pouch in the day, is learning his name, comes to me when I hold a treat for him, allows me to not only pet the pouch, but reach into it without biting, when offering a licky treat he grabs my finger and<BR>holds it. Still has a problem when out playing, as he still wants to run and hide, he will get on my arm, on his own but is still a bit fearful of the open hand, but with time, he will as Buddy did, learn his area is safe and no one will harm or chase him.<BR>These two are cage mates and get along wonderfully together.<P> I look at these two as a reminder to me, that with everything they have had to endure, they deserve the time to learn to love and trust. It is so good to watch them play and rhomp, and have that lively bounce in their play.<P> When you think you have tried everything and are ready to give up, look into their eyes, tell them, you too are going to drop<BR>the ball on them, and make them start all over again with someone new who also may abuse them more. But know when you do that,<BR>your baggage also will go with them. Don't be afraid of those bites, those bites are like your keepsake box of memories, those bites<BR>means they have a past they wish not to repeat. I have bites, holes, I have scars, but the scars I carry with me could never<BR>come near the scars these gliders have carried with them.<P> Love your glider, really get in there and try to imagine the worst possible things that glider may have gone through, chances are good, you are probably not far off. Then understand their fear, absorb it, and try as you may to protect them from any<BR>more.<P>
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#5070 - 03/20/01 09:50 AM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


When I saw you Bourbon, I was still scared of the bites, even though I have had many. You told me what I needed to hear, and what I have learned has been such a help. My parents are much better now, and rarely bite anymore. They are much calmer, but still bite to watch my reaction. Last night I came away bleeding a bit, but I think they moved a step closer to trusting me because I took the bites without a reaction. Thank you so much for everything, and I will keep you updated on my progress, and on their progress in learning to trust again.<P>Brittney

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#5071 - 03/22/01 09:36 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


For those of you who do not know, my Nero and Nuba were biters and were transferred to a couple of different homes. They came to me and got the love and trust they never had before. Nero had gotten a broken leg and became dependent on me for his healing and his trust grew more easily with me. Nuba was a vicious biter and it took a little over two weeks for her to completely stop biting as I took every one of those bites continuously until her last. It still took time for her to bond with me after. She was getting better with the crabbing and trusting but she still is learning to bond with me and I got them the beginning of November. I would say she is now pretty much bonded to me but still not 100%. She will still crab from time to time but for the most part, is trusting of me and even will let my hubby pick her up without a fight. Why am I telling all this?.........because it was Bourbon who taught me how to tame them, to get them calmed down, and turned them into the sweetest, most lovable gliders you'd ever meet! You would not have ever KNOWN that Nuba herself was ever a severe biter! <P>This story is dedicated to BOURBON!!!!!!! IF IT WASN'T FOR YOU BOURBON, I WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE CHANCE OF KNOWING SUCH GLIDER LOVE!!<BR>And thank you for helping me to find these gliders through your friends who are now dear friends of mine in the glider community!!<P>And now I hve two sweet little joeys that we handle often with not a single complaint from their parents, Nero and Nuba! <BR>And I have also taken in two rescues, as some of you know, Meeko and Muffin (they are from separate places but I hope to pair them up), who are going to have a loving home from me with the experience I've gained through Bourbon (they too bite some but seem to be getting over it []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/] ).<P>I LOVE YA BOURBON!!! Thank you for everyting from the bottom of my heart... []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/heart.gif[/] []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/heart.gif[/] []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/heart.gif[/]<P>Love, Tessa~~~~~~~~~~ []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/heart.gif[/]

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#5072 - 03/24/01 12:46 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


After reading Bourbons letter I found that I have been doing it right. Little Guy was a biter par excellent. Crab etc. He was with a 11 year old boy that had so many other pets he couldn't devote time to Little Guy aka Monster. They named him right. After a month and a half Little Guy is beginning to trust me, especially since I carry him around my neck most of the time when I'm not teaching school. At night I put my hand inside his pouch and stroke him with my finger and get licks and nibbles and he will snuggle in my hand and go to sleep. I've been taking him out and resting him on my chest where he will also sleep. As he gets out of his cage he becomes more nervous and skittish. So I just do it a little at a time. Today he climbed around my shoulder and rode around the school building as I did some work. The more I handle him the better he gets. Haven't heard him crab in quite a while. he will talk when I am petting him, mostly hisses and the first note of a crab. After handling large snakes you learn not to jerk the hand away which just causes more pain. Bites aren't that painful if you can control the jerk response. Anyway I expose him to others from the pouch around my neck which seems to get him used to others but still don't let others handle him. Anybody want a 10" Burmese Python???<p>[This message has been edited by Snakeman39 (edited 03-24-2001).]

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#5073 - 04/06/01 02:40 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have scars all over my right-hand pointer finger nuckle from my cutie...THE CHAC-STER! He was very untame also and I believe that he had incured severe emotional trauma from the nasty, nasty place I bought him from. It makes me cry just thinking about this "exotic pet store". Anyway, I have been truly dedicated to this little man for over 5 months and I am seeing TRUE progress. He now lets me rub his belly and cheeks (while he's laying on his back and all sprawled out), but still is skittish when out playing...he kind of hides and does the "circle dance"...so he's not there quite yet. And Bourbon, you are absolutely right, I think that all the extra work that we do for these traumatized gliders is well worth the bites and effort...I wouldn't trade a scar!

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#5074 - 04/06/01 03:44 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
I am pretty well known for working with the vampire gliders, and everyone has heard my stories hundreds of times over, but I do want to say..<P>Just as sometimes a teen don't want to hear what the adults have already been through, many people out there, need to hear from more wonderful people like ya'll, to let them know these things are possible, and they are possible with the time, the love and the patience that they so much deserve.<P>I would like to thank you all for also stopping the cycle of fear that they have lived.<BR>
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#5075 - 04/06/01 06:32 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I want to echo that it works. Gladys now enjoys being held and petted, and though she's such a chatterer she'll probably never be a pocket glider, she's incredibly fun. 7 weeks ago tonight when I brought her home, she was so terrorized that I couldn't bear to go near her. I couldn't STAND how awful it was for her. It's taken SO long, and SO many hours, but increasingly, she trusts me. Enough to take a licky treat at first. Then enough to not bite. Then enough to climb on my hand (what a thrill!!). Then enough to climb around me, get into my hair. Then enough to jump to me when she was scared. Then enough to not crab when I held her. <P>She's a jittery glider, and a little more sensitive to change and sudden movements and loud sounds than my other glider was. But she's SO sweet, and while we're far from bonded, we're getting there. I trust her more to come to me, and she trusts more that I'm not here to hurt her. <P>For anyone doubting if it works, trust me, follow Bourbon's advice, and it WILL work -- eventually. I never thought this wild thing who screamed a blood-curdling fearful crab anytime I came into the room could ever become a sweetie. <P>But it happens, and it's wonderful!!<P>Lucy <BR>with Gladys<BR>and Gladys' new mate who hasn't named himself yet but came home today....

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#5076 - 04/06/01 10:51 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bourbon- Thanks for all the info. You put in so much time and effort to help people understand gliders and trst me its well appreciated! I don't have a glider yet (I think I've said that in all my posts! []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/] but i'm researching!) and you have taught me the most about them. I feel if I do decide that I will be able to meet all a gliders needs, that I will be a good owner because of you! If this doesn't make sense, sorry! But I'm trying and rambling and so i'll try and stop now! Thanks again Bourbon!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR><I> Chelsea </I>

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#5077 - 04/16/01 03:20 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: RMiriam]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well my input is just show no fear and take the pain and don't move away. They are generally just scared to death. Bull, my new one gave me a bite that wouldn't stop shook and crabbed etc. In the bonding pouch around my neck he bit my stomach several times but I never took my hand away just talked softly and lightly stroked him from out sede the bag. Crabbed for half an hour. By the time I got him home he had calmed down somewhat and in his cage I followed him around and petted him for about 15 minutes. He went to the towel and burrowed in. about an hour later I reached in and ignored the crab and cupped him and just held him while stroking his back for 15 minutes. Other than a little crab and a few light nips he calmed right down. Bull was a breeding glider that had had very little contact with humans but appeared to be starved for attention. This morning I got a little hole in my finger, some nips and then he let me pet him and give him some meal worms. Even came to my hand that was in the cage and put his front paws on me, to sniff around. They are not as horrible as you would think. just be persistant and don't be afraid. I mean just how much dammage can a 150 gram animal do to you.

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#5078 - 04/16/01 06:15 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Snakeman said " I mean just how much dammage can a 150 gram animal do to you."<P>Depends on the glider, it's personality and it's history.. so to that I must say, about as much as an abused adult iguana???
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#5079 - 04/17/01 09:04 AM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Actually an adult Iguana is infinitely more dangerous. An attack of a 16 lb amorous adult male can inflict 60 to 75 stitches worth of damage, If you see someone with lots of fine line scars on their wrists they are either suicidal or handle Iguanas. It is a labor of love or masochism. Bull is still biting but no longer breaks the skin, Real sore fingers this morning but he is calming down well. No longer crabs and still won't let me rub his belly and under his chin. Is this fun or what?<P>I forgot to mention about the 5 month old wild baby Iguana that bit me this weekend. I'm still trying to get the teeth out of my finger. So enjoy your easy biting animals. A 10' Burmese has over 200 teeth in a mouth that measures 6" x 1 1/2" in bite size and one helova squeeze to boot.<P>[This message has been edited by Snakeman39 (edited 04-17-2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Snakeman39 (edited 04-17-2001).]

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#5080 - 04/24/01 03:24 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just wanted to say this. The info Bourbon gives is very helpful, but you must take it to heart and really understand her words. I didn't until recently. Wicket is a little over 2 years old and is a blood drawer. hes always been this way. I wouldnt say he is wild .. just doesnt like people! Well, i had him neutered about a week and a half ago and he had to have an ecollar, and was chewing, and well now it is infected. So for the past 1 and a half weeks ive had him, weve bonded more than since I got him which was last July, thats 9 months!! I understand him now and i realize what Bourbon was talking about now. he is such a sweet glider now and I love him more than ever now that I understand him.<BR>Cindy

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#5081 - 04/25/01 06:29 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am trying to hand tame a pair of mated gliders that were VERY closely bonded to their previous owner. The Male is protective of the female and not at all timid, and the female is very timid but less agressive when I hold her. Is the best way to tame them to hold them one at a time or to keep them together?<P>Also, these testimonials are great and inspirational but I am a first time glider owner and I would like some "How To..." advice. Do I just hold them and let them bite me as I calmly stroke them and talk to them? Please help with some advice.

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#5082 - 04/26/01 12:31 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Update on Bull. He's finally stopped biting but still crabs a bit. I pet him and talk to him a lot. He's curious but some times when you surprise him he will skunk up the whole house. He loves to lick honey or melon juice off my fingers. Bull love BML and will hardly eat anything else, even licks the BML off the chopped fruit. He was a Brisky's fed Glider and is brown in color.<P> It took almost a month to handle Little Guy but now he's nuts to play with my hand while in the cage. Little Guy and Squeak are finally going to get together this weekend. The courtship of male and female Gliders is a complex sight to behold. From chest rubs to male head noogies on my hand in response to the females odor is the cutest thing I've ever seen. He almost stands on his head and noogies like mad with the gland on the top of his head. The female then does a similar noogie and chest rubs. Should be a real riot when they begin living together. Squeak is real shy but also real tame, while Little Guy is tame but still doesn't like to be picked up. I will probably pouch carry them to get them used to each other and the pouch. Just doing the animal behavior thing. It's great. Again be persistant and make sure you are consistant in your handling. <p>[This message has been edited by Snakeman39 (edited 04-26-2001).]

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#5083 - 09/17/01 08:54 AM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Bringing back to the top, as per requested
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#5084 - 09/17/01 10:21 AM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you for your words of advice, When Soccer came in, he was my first glider, heck he was the first glider I have ever seen that wasnt in a picture

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#5085 - 09/20/01 09:51 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just got a pair of gliders five days ago they are 2yrs old and untame the female is working with me but the male bites me. What should i do to help them and how do i go about taming them. He wont let me in the cage and bites at me when i come near.<BR>Lindsay

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#5086 - 12/04/01 06:03 AM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My female glider was brought home to my stepdaughter 4yrs ago and was never given the attention she deserved. I moved in a couple of years ago and have been taking care of the little cutie. We now have a male also. Is it too late to tame them? They will take food out of my hand but hate going into a pouch. They have never bitten me but bite my boyfriend every time.

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#5087 - 12/04/01 09:56 AM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's never too late. Like most things, the earlier the better, but it's never too late. I think sometimes when you have to work hard at a relationship -- like the one you are describing -- it's even sweeter when they finally bond.

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#5088 - 12/06/01 07:58 PM Re: Understand Your Biter (Long but easy :)) [Re: Anonymous]
Viva La Glider Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 862
Loc: Saint Petersburg, FL
Excellent posting all around and a message that cannot be repeated enough. We took in quite a number of gliders from a retiring breeder. She was very cagy about the facts of her gliders, but we suspect that they were wild caught, and kept in teeny tiny cages and never given attention. I wish we could have taken them all but not enough room at the inn. Anyway, we have all but one now quite handleable. Despite the horrors of their previous lives, we've managed, with time and patience to make excellent companions of them, except Brian. I am tempted to change his name to Osama. Brian is a vicious lunger and quite nasty in that he tries to pee on everything and everyone. He has no fear. He is still a fascinating guy though, despite his nasty dispostion. He is incredibly kind with his wife, and has the sweetest babies. When we first started breeding gliders I was concerned that his disposition may be a genetic trait and passed on, or that his mean spirited-ness would environmentally affect the offspring. I'm still not convinced that he may be the one exception to the rule, but we will never, ever give up on him.<P>------------------<BR>A Girl & Her Squirrels <A HREF="http://www.sugar-gliders.com" TARGET=_blank>www.sugar-gliders.com</A>
_________________________
Lisa and Arnold www.sugar-gliders.com

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