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#50945 - 07/12/05 11:02 PM Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
We are happy to announce a new discovery concerning the WFB gliders. Our Leucistic Glider Larissa was bred to a normal het for Leucistic Male and had a WFB Champagne baby Girl. We have named her Sunshine. Sunshine's grandmother and GrandFather are Lil Dipper (a Leucistic Het) and Sunny a (WFB Leucsitic het). Her GreatGrandmother is a cinnamon female Hope and GreatGrandfather, a Leucistic Male Sammy. The WFB gene is in Larissa the mother. We have thought that the WFB gene is Co-dominate. That would mean the hets would not carry the gene. This is the second time this year this has happened (where the WFB has expressed itself with a het paring) One was with Sugar Glider Express where they bred two hets together - both coming from WFB Grandparents and Great Grandparents, and now here with us with a Leucistic who obviously carries the WFB gene and a Leucistic het. We are so surprised by this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />There are those on this board that might know better about the genetics of this, and please correct me if I am wrong, but Normally the co-dominate glider's offspring who express the color as the only ones that carry the gene, unless it carries another recessive gene. In otherwords, the WFB male Sunny is Co-Dominate showing the WFB trait, but carries the Leucistic gene. The Leucistic Gene is Recessive. I am not sure about this, but believe because the Grandmother Hope was red, the Leucistic gene was stronger in Lil Dipper(offspring of Hope - red and Sammy - Leucistic). When Lil Dipper was bred to Sunny, the blonde was more dominate because Lil Dipper's red trait was recessive. This would explain why when Haylee was produced out of Lil Dipper and Bailey (WFB - no Leucistic gene) that the WFB was dominate over Lil Dippers Auburn color. It would also explain why when Lil Dipper's Daughter Larissa bred to Mickey, that the wfb gene was still dominate over the Leucistic in Larissa and Mickey. I don't think this would have happened if the original female Hope had been a normal gray color. It would only work if Hope is a red, which is a recessive color. Anyway I wanted to share this with everyone. It is so interesting and exciting. Here is the joey. I will get better pictures when she detaches. Little Sunshine
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ToandFro Gliders

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USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

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#50946 - 07/12/05 11:05 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Awwwwwwwwww! How exciting! Look at all that pink skin! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#50947 - 07/12/05 11:15 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Sheila, I have no idea what you just said, lol...but the baby is just precious <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />.

Karin
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#50948 - 07/13/05 12:09 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Karin, normally it takes at least one WFB to make a WFB baby. Neither parent was a WFB in this Case. Only the Grandfather was. This means the mother has to be white faced under all that mask of white.


Edited by Sheila (07/13/05 09:40 AM)
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ToandFro Gliders

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USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#50949 - 07/13/05 07:47 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
This is the second time this year this has happened (where the WFB has expressed itself with a het paring)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Sheila, you can not be entirely certain that Larissa is a het. Just because you can't visually pick out her white face because she is all white doesn't mean it's there. More or less what I'm a saying is that Larissa might very well be a WF/Leucistic...

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#50950 - 07/13/05 09:40 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
I had too come to that conclusion Leyna (good POint) just didn't know if that is possible either. The Leucistic is recessive to the WF. I will correct that. As a matter of fact I thought i should probably change a price on her offspring that are Leucistic that come out of her because they could carry the WFB gene now too. I knew that in Albino- you are masking over the original color, just didn't know about the Leucistic. I guess this proves it.
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ToandFro Gliders

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USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#50951 - 07/13/05 09:51 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
I didn't understand any of this, it all goes right over my head! This would be why I have ZERO interest in breeding! But she is a beautiful color!
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Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#50952 - 07/13/05 09:59 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
US Mom if you go back and look at my second post, it is easier to understand.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#50953 - 07/13/05 10:49 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
It is a lot easier to understand! I am interested in the genetics, but part of my brain goes away when it gets into the proper terminology. I have sat down and read several of these posts, and I just can't seem to get it. And I am not dumb, my brain just shuts down at that point! But you are right, the second one you have up there is perfect for people like me! I just know she's pretty!
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#50954 - 07/13/05 11:42 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Larissa is a "double het" and the white face is masked because she is white. Because of this... her new little girl, Sunshine is also a "double het" because she is expressing the co-dominant gene of the White Face Blonde and will also be a het for leucistic.

Sunny, Larissa's father, who is a White Face Blonde/Leucistic Het....is a "double het" and was produced out of two of my own gliders.... Sandman who is a White Face Blonde and Sesamie who is Leucistic.

The only way to "prove" wither or not a Leucistic/all White glider is a "double het" for White Face Blonde....is by breeding. Thus, any Leucistic/all White offspring that would be produced would be called.... "Possible Double Het" until Proven....when it has a White Face Blonde/Leucistic parent.

From the way I see it.... the White Face gene is still "Co-Dominant" just like it has already been theorized and the Leucistic gene is recessive.

The White Face gene did not suddnely become recessive so has nothing to do with the Cinnamon gene of color. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Judie (07/13/05 12:02 PM)

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#50955 - 07/13/05 12:03 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 7356
Loc: Austin, TX
Okay. That makes more sense. Thanks!
_________________________
Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.


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#50956 - 07/13/05 12:07 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> I think this topic should be in Breeding and Babies. So, if possible .... could a moderator move it please? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />
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Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#50957 - 07/13/05 12:18 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Congrats on your special joey Sheila! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure you guys are using the word codominant correctly?
With codominance, a cross between organisms with two different phenotypes produces offspring with a third phenotype in which both of the parental traits appear together.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
This would explain why when Haylee was produced out of Lil Dipper and Bailey

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
I think this may be a good example of genes "codominating"?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
It would only work if Hope is a red, which is reccessive

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Sheila, I'm not sure that the red is recessive?
I don't breed or have any cinnies(I'm color blind so I don't see the red, lol), but does it take two cinnies to produce a cinnie baby?
Maybe it's a dominant trait that will codominate with the grey leaving you with various shades inbetween?
I'd imagine that breeding cinnie to cinnie would eventually increase the intensity of the color, but I'm not sure if I agree that it's recessive.

I think Leyna might have a great point by saying that the leu girl Larissa might just "secretly" express the wf trait, but since shes a leu you can't see it.

I think that the wf trait is a dominant trait that is sometimes phenotypically expresed and sometimes isn't.

I'm no gene expert so I could be wrong, but that's my 2 cents <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#50958 - 07/13/05 02:04 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh man! I couldn't resist wandering into this thread!

The left hemisphere of my brain isn't functioning properly right now. Sheila could you or someone draw a family tree/pedigree showing the colour, phenotype, or genotype profile (e.g. WFB het, Leu, leu het, etc) of everyone showing who mated with who and who produced what? LOL.

This seems VERY interesting! It would be nice to deduce what's going on genetically here. This is exactly why all you colour breeders are invaluable geneticists to the glider community. Your breeding stats contribute to our empirical knowledge on the nature of specific glider phenotypes, and in this case, the ever notorious glider leucisticism!

Congrats, Sheila!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#50959 - 07/13/05 02:35 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mikey, Larissa (leu), the joeys mother, was produced by a WFB/het for leucistic and a 100% leucistic het. The joeys father, Mickey (leu het), was produced by a leucistic and a normal...

Judie, I don't understand your use of the term "double het" if the glider is expressing the trait, it is not a het. Larissa's dad was a WF/leu het, her mom was a leu het and from what we can tell, Larissa is a WF/leu. I don't see any double hets there...

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#50960 - 07/13/05 07:50 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Lineage of Larissa....

Father: Sandman, White Face Blonde
Mother: Sesamie, Leucistic

Color of offspring out of Sandman and Sesamie Breeding:

White Face Blonde/100% Leucistic Het male named Sunny and one normal colored female who is a 100% Leucistic Het named Sapphire.

Notice above....the 100% Leucistic Het female named Sapphire does not carry the White Face gene.

Sunny is called a "Double Het" because he is capable of expressing both colors to his offspring... WF Blonde and Leucistic. And the reason for this is because... the WF Blonde gene is Co-Dominant. Otherwords... the White Face is a "visible Het".

It is possible to be het for one color and express the phenotype of another. Since Larissa produced a White Face offspring... then I would guess that Larissa is a White Face Blonde Het/Leucistic herself. The White Face Het gene was given to her by her father.... Sandman, a White Face Blonde. Then Larissa... passed the Co-dominant White Face gene to her daughter, Sunshine.

Thus, Sunshine is a Double Het as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />





Edited by Judie (07/14/05 04:29 AM)
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#50961 - 07/13/05 08:56 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Wow, this is getting really confusing. I understand what you guys are saying but it's making be think to much, lol. Either way, we have ourselves a beautiful baby, the end.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#50962 - 07/14/05 12:39 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8329
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Ok, I think I know what was confussing me. Sheila, you have 2 sunshines on your site. Are you aware of that? One from Katrina and Gussy, and one from Larissa and Mickey.
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#50963 - 07/14/05 12:50 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That is so excitting and she is just breath taking! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> can I have!!! lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> I'm jealouse that Bec is going to see her in person at the end of this month...now I wish I was coming to. Keep the pictures coming <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#50964 - 07/14/05 06:10 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: RSXTC]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie, from the way you are explaining things, you are making it sound like the leucistic gene and white faced blonde gene are one and the same. Obviously that is not the case. If the glider is expressing the white faced blonde trait, it is not a het, it's homo white faced blonde, het leucistic. Also, in the years of breed WFB hets to normals, to my knowledge a WFB has never been produced. That means that Larissa is not a Leucistic, het for WFB, she is a WFB Leucistic, no het.

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#50965 - 07/14/05 10:29 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Leyna, you are right about this. The glider is a WFB Leucistic. It carries the gene for both white face and Leucistic, but only exhibits the trait for one - the Leucistic. Being a Leucistic, it is impossible to exhibit both genes. Judie, as far as the red grandmother - when the grandfather Sammie bred to Hope the red grandmother, the Leucistic gene was stronger than the red and that is why there is so much Leucistic coming out of these three girls out of Hope. Many snake breeders use red in their programs with recessives (Leucistic and Albino) to punch the other color out. When I say red being recessive, I am referring the the color trait, being less strong compared to a normal gray. Ok for Mickey here is the lineage. Hope , Sammie (They are the Great Grandparents of Sunshine). Little Dipper Sunny (Grandparents of Sunshine)
Larissa Mickey (Parents of Sunshine)

Also to gather a little more information. Sunny's sister Sapphire is a cinnamon color.

Lindsey, the day I picked her name out, my client wanted to name her new baby the same name. She had no idea I had chosen it. Just a wierd thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#50966 - 07/14/05 11:05 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I may be wrong... but I cannot understand your theory Sheila.

What on earth does the cinnamon gene have to do with the Co-Dominant White Face gene? If the Cinnamon gene is so strong... then why is the glider not a Cinnamon? Instead, it is a White Face?

We know that the WF gene is impossible to produce unless the coloration is expressed. Because Larissa is white... how do you know she does not express it?

And Larissa... is she only a Leucistic only?

What about the White Face offspring? Will it Express both colors? If that is the case... then how can you say one cannot possess both genes? Isn't it possible to have both genes and one color be masked by another gene?

Anyway... it would be helpfull if someone could help us out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Judie (07/14/05 11:18 AM)
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#50967 - 07/14/05 11:44 AM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh, man. The genes can and will get messy! I'll have a look at the lineage soon, Sheila. Thank you!

Whatever the case with this genetics rubix cube, I must say congrats on the little one! So beautiful!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#50968 - 07/14/05 12:49 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
I did not say the cinnamon gene is strong. What I am saying if you want any color to be dominate in breeding - even the recessive colors like Leucistic and albino, you breed them to cinnamons because it is a less dominate color and not as strong as a gray color.
What Leyna is saying and I agree is that she is 100% Leucistic, and 100% white faced but cannot show the white face on her fat little body because it is being covered with a beautiful snow white exterior.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#50969 - 07/14/05 12:51 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


YAY! Sunshine's post! She is so beautiful Sheila! Congrads on your new descovery aswel. Not that I can follow it 100% but it sounds interesting never the less! I'm expecting one just like her from you in the future *wink wink* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> I am the next one up on your champange waiting list though! Huray! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> *dose back flip for sheila's babies!* They're all so awesome! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />

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#50970 - 07/14/05 01:24 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


very interesting...but what is leu and wfb are connected? I know you can get WFBs out of greys after enough fluke breeding, and you can get WFBs out of leus with a higher frequency...what is leu and WFB are tied genes? Perhaps WFB is an 'incomplete' leu making is possible for all leus to have WFBs? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> I mean what real evidence do we have to prove what genes are tied and what genes arent?

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#50971 - 07/14/05 05:48 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oestaira, Larissa's father is a WFB, so the WFB gene is there, it didn't just randomly pop up. More likely than not, Larissa is a White Faced Leucistic, you just can't see her white face because the rest of her is white as well... Actually, the production of this joey proves that the white faced gene and the leucistic gene aren't related at all because a glider can express both traits simultaneously... If they were the same gene, the glider would generally have to be one or the other, but not 100% both.

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#50972 - 07/14/05 06:02 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Goodness gracious Sheila, that is what I said also of Larissa... Because she is leucistic colored her wf blonde coloration is being masked by the leucistic gene. Mother then passed the WF Blonde Het coloration to her newest offspring.

The facial coloration cannot be expressed because the wf gene is co-dominant to the Dominant color which is gray but not co-dominant to Leucistic as that is a recessive gene.

How simple is that? Or am I still on another planet or something by myself? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#50973 - 07/14/05 06:46 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Judie you are now back in the ballgame <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#50974 - 07/14/05 07:30 PM Re: Genetic Discovery with WFB and Leucistics [Re: ]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
We know that the WF gene is impossible to produce unless the coloration is expressed.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

A little off topic here, but wasn't there a white face born of two hets not too long ago?? I know it is a rare event, but that wouldn't make it impossible. Or did I misunderstand something?
_________________________
Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
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