Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
dinah505, GliderNoob2389, Sunshine, tlkngfethrs1
Featured Member
Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Last 10 Posts
Tales of Jabberwinky and Yoda
by Terry
Hubby said yes!
by Terry
Gliders of the Round Table 5
by Hutch
02:01 PM
"Homemade" yogie treats
by sugarfluff
10:44 AM
TheWildRose311
by KarenE
10:03 AM
'injury' at bald spot?
by josefine
09:28 PM
Dear Crabby
by Hutch
10:27 AM
Joeys and parents long term?
by KarenE
10:04 AM
Double Critter Nation bedding ?
by Alan
09:19 AM
Melanistic Gliders
by Hutch
02:48 AM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Topic Options
#5428 - 03/01/03 09:43 AM Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Randy when you sent the email, I figured you were done with your thread.

So For those that WANT to really understand the processes of Vit D3 and nocturnal mammals here is a link that should help there. This thread will also hopefully take a scare and turn it into an EDUCATED discussion. A paragraph was taken from this site and used in the "factual scientific paper".

Melissa Kaplan has done some great studies and she specializes in herps. I did not use the word expert, as there is no such thing. This article was also written in 1995, but the processes are still the same.
This site actually has a lot of great information on it many of the studies used is for the nocturnal mammals. It explains the calcium and vit d3 processes and also has some great info regarding what would actually bind the calcium, stop the mammals from processing it properly.
Explains why the uv lights won't work and why the supplimentation is needed/ required for NOCTURNAL Mammals in captivity.

Hopefully, this will only be the beginning of a thread that will tell the whole story. I have many many links, so you can read the whole articles and make your own decisions. Keep in mind we do have NOCTURNAL mammals.

http://www.anapsid.org/mbd2.html
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

Top
#5429 - 03/01/03 09:59 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glider Greetings, Bourbon:

The reason I sent the e-mail you were refering to was there were some figures that I questioned in a prior post and wanted to discuss them with the author privately before continuing the public discussionn

Don't know if any revisions have been made since I haven't been back to that thread, yet.

Thanks for your new link. I'm finding that this is another area of glider husbandry that I took for granted and should not have. I plan to do some additional reading on the matter as the ASGS article doesn't present, for me at least, a compelling arguement that our gliders are getting too much Vit. D3 with the BML diet. On the other hand, they have raised an interesting question or three.

At the moment, I don't have the time or the "smarts" to read twenty articles and get an instant education on this particular aspect of glider care; but, if you have two or three other links to "favorite" articles discussing the D3 issue, I sure would make time to read them.

Thanks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Top
#5430 - 03/03/03 05:57 AM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Funny thing, here is information from Melissa Kaplan on that site that states that Diurnal Lizards shouldn't even be given vitamin d supplementation as they do not use any of the Vit-d3 except that from UV exposure. This information is from her Supplementation Article which can be found at the bottom of the page you linked to, Bourbon. And before you said this information was all about reptiles and thus couldn't be applied to gliders, yet you think feeding them reptile vitamins is ok. Your stance is pretty confusing.

----------

There are lots of calcium supplements on the market - Repcal, Reptical, Osteoform, Miner-All, and Os-Cal to name a few. Many brag about the D3 or D they have added to it, and many have A, D and E in them. [:"orange"]While vitamins A, D, E and phosphorous are necessary to the body for use in calcium metabolism, they are already included in the multivitamin supplement[/] (which contains many other vitamins and minerals the fortified calcium supplements do not have) and from the food. With one exception. D3 (cholecalciferol) is essential to calcium metabolism, and is made in the iguana (and human, for that matter) skin by contact with sufficient UVB wavelengths. Plants contain another type of vitamin D, called D2 (ergocalciferol). D2 is not nearly as efficient, close, in fact to being worthless, at metabolizing calcium, hence the need for D3. [:"red"]Research suggests that iguanas may not utilize much or any of the D3 they ingest (as given in a vitamin supplement), only that made by the UVB-skin interaction.[/]

[:"red"]Therefore, buying a calcium supplement that contains D3 is not necessary for the calcium metabolism. [/] Products such as the new Solar Drops and Moon drops is also waste for iguanas (and possibly other diurnal and [:"blue"]nocturnal reptiles as well, especially omnivores and carnivores who get most of their D3 from the prey they eat [/]) as it [:"red"]misleads people who think that they are making up for the lack of sun or other proper UVB access, and harms the iguana who ultimately suffers from metabolic bone disease from inadequate calcium being metabolized.[/]


Edited by Metztli23 (03/03/03 06:01 AM)

Top
#5431 - 03/03/03 01:12 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Metztli23: I believe you are missing the point of why Bourbon provided the link. The purpose was to show that diurnal lizards (i.e.iguanas) utilize the D3 developed in the skin from UV exposure to aid in calcium metabolism. The same is pretty much true of other diurnal creatures including humans.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"While vitamins A, D, E and phosphorous are necessary to the body for use in calcium metabolism, they are already included in the multivitamin supplement (which contains many other vitamins and minerals the fortified calcium supplements do not have) and from the food. With one exception. D3 (cholecalciferol) is essential to calcium metabolism, and is made in the iguana (and human, for that matter) skin by contact with sufficient UVB wavelengths. "

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> What can be extrapolated from this information is that while diurnal creatures obtain the needed D3 via UV exposure, nocturnal animals do not get the necessary D3 in this manner as they are sequestered from the UV rays during the day while they sleep. This is especially true of gliders in captivity since they sleep in darkened pouches and/or nest boxes & do not get the UV exposure that allows D3 to form in the skin. And as Dr. Kaplan states: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"D3 (cholecalciferol) is essential to calcium metabolism..." .

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Therefore, if nocturnal animals do not get the D3 necessary for the uptake and absorption of calcium from UV exposure, they must obtain it in another manner & that would be via a D3 supplement.

Now the issue is not whether gliders need a D3 supplement but whether one such as RepCal's Phosphorus-Free Calcium with D3 is a safe & appropriate supplement for gliders. While I can't personally speak for Bourbon, I sincerely doubt that the researchers, labs and nutritionists involved in the development of the BML diet would not have studied several supplements containing D3 and for reasons only they can explain, it was determined that the RepCal was the best choice. In fact, Dr. Ellen Dierenfeld of the Bronx Zoo ( who counts animal nutrition among her vast array of credentials and creates animal diets for zoos around the world) has reviewed the BML diet including all its ingredients and apparently has seen no danger (toxicity-wise or otherwise)in the use of the RepCal Phosphorus-Free Calcium with D3 supplement in the BML diet.

Top
#5432 - 03/03/03 01:39 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"red"]Therefore, buying a calcium supplement that contains D3 is not necessary for the calcium metabolism. [/] Products such as the new Solar Drops and Moon drops is also waste for iguanas (and possibly other diurnal and [:"blue"]nocturnal reptiles as well, especially omnivores and carnivores who get most of their D3 from the prey they eat [/]) as it [:"red"]misleads people who think that they are making up for the lack of sun or other proper UVB access, and harms the iguana who ultimately suffers from metabolic bone disease from inadequate calcium being metabolized.[/]

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That says exactly that buying a calcium supplement with vit-d3 IS NOT necessary. it also says that doing so can lead to problems with the animal, ie. metabolic bone disease. Which is exactly what that "factual scientific paper" was saying all along. So Bourbon proved the paper's point for us. Thanks.

Top
#5433 - 03/03/03 02:09 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Metztli23: it would appear that you are distorting Dr. Kaplan's words to fit with your own theories: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"Therefore, buying a calcium supplement that contains D3 is not necessary for the calcium metabolism. Products such as the new Solar Drops and Moon drops is also waste for iguanas (and possibly other diurnal and nocturnal reptiles as well, especially omnivores and carnivores who get most of their D3 from the prey they eat ) as it misleads people who think that they are making up for the lack of sun or other proper UVB access, and harms the iguana who ultimately suffers from metabolic bone disease from inadequate calcium being metabolized.
"

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

What Dr. Kaplan is stating here is that such supplements are a waste for iguanas (diurnal animals) whose best source of D3 would be from UV exposure. Dr. Kaplan also states it's possible (a hypothesis) that other diurnal and nocturnal reptiles don't need a calcium supplement with D3 especially if they are omnivores and carnivores who get most of their D3 from the prey they eat. Gliders are neither. They are gummivores whose diet in the wilds consist mainly of saps, nectars, eucalyptus, insects, bird eggs and small vertebrates such as small birds, rodents or lizards. While the small vertebrates may provide D3 for gliders in the wilds, captive gliders do not regularly get such vertebrate fare and, therefore, adequate D3 is still an issue for captive gliders.

Metztli23 states:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
That says exactly that buying a calcium supplement with vit-d3 IS NOT necessary. it also says that doing so can lead to problems with the animal, ie. metabolic bone disease. Which is exactly what that "factual scientific paper" was saying all along. So Bourbon proved the paper's point for us. Thanks.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Bourbon has not proved the paper's point by any means. Additionally, I hardly call terms such "possibly", "presumed", "can be concluded" and "can be postulated" as being scientifically factual. Such terms are indicative of an assumption or hypothesis that has yet to be proven.

Dr. Kaplan states: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...waste for iguanas (and possibly other diurnal and nocturnal reptiles as well.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Dr. Jackson states: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Sugar gliders are presumed to metabolize Vitamin D primarily through the gut (Jackson, 407). Because they are nocturnal, they do not depend as much on metabolizing through UV light. Therefore, it can be concluded that the D3 needed for calcium absorption in a glider is obtained nutritionally. It can be postulated that in the wild, the glider diet is not very high in vitamin D and is obtained from eggs and small animals. Yet, both in the wild and at zoos and sanctuaries, where there is generally no D supplement, there has been no evidence of calcium deficiency in gliders. This seems to be a problem isolated to pet gliders.



<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">





Edited by Glideroo (03/03/03 02:45 PM)

Top
#5434 - 03/03/03 04:00 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Actually no, I am not distorting anything. Reread what I quoted, its quite implicit. The point was, the paper in contention brought up the idea that there is a possibility people who use reptile vitamins could be overdosing their animals. Various studies were quoted that all tend to lean toward the belief that vitamin-d should NOT be supplemented in a nocturnal animal. Then, someone who has not released any research at all comes along and says how you can't use the references that were used because they relate to reptiles not mammals. This person says this, but then says its ok to give mamals reptile vitamins. See the contradiction? Not only that, but this same person later on uses this woman's website to prove her point that nocturnal animals NEED vit-d, and this is a problem. One, because the website says jsut the opposite of what she wants it to say, and two because when this site was quoted to prove something for her opponent she said it was invalid and didn't apply, but when she wants it to apply for her it is ok. Read that article again, sweatheart, I am sure you will see that I haven't distorted anything. It is nice of you however to try to make me look like I don't know what I am talking about, or that I am somehow trying to manipulate meanings. Problem is anyone who reads that paragraph will know who is doing the manipulating. Not to mention, everything you quoted back to me further proves the point that Vitamin-D should be obtained through food not supplementation. And I never heard of a gummivore before, wanna elucidate on that one? Gliders are omnivores, eating gums, insects, birds, and fruits. They obtain their Vit-D supplementation through digestion of insects and bird eggs or chicks. And that my dear, is the simple truth.

Top
#5435 - 03/03/03 04:56 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
BeetleJuice Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 2724
Loc: Summerville, SC
Some info to add to this discussion.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

This is from Dr. Ellen Dierenfeld. Dr. Dierenfeld received her Ph.D. in Animal Nutrition from Cornell University after studying ecological nutrition of several species in Australia. She is the head of the Department of Wildlife Nutrition for the Wildlife Conservation Society and the Bronx Zoo.


"Glider anatomy and Protein Needs
Let’s start with the anatomy of a glider. Gliders are not insectivores, but gummivores. Their anatomy, their behavior, and their physiology support this. This is the feeding category that best describes them. What this means in part is that they are not designed to eat a diet high in insect protein, and/or only limited amounts of animal-based protein. To do otherwise may be problematic for them."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Although this particular post was not dealing with the D3 issue, it does provide valuable information. You can read the whole thread by clicking the link below.

BML Discussion

Please keep in mind, although it is great to have alternate viewpoints and to discuss our way through them, this needs to be done in a civil fashion.
_________________________
Craig

Top
#5436 - 03/03/03 06:24 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Can I do this without being negative? Probably not, but I'll try.

The ASGS article is nonsense. There are a few valid points made, but otherwise… the author is trying to stir up old '[censored]'. It's an ongoing fuss - and everyone who has been around a while knows it.

The negative aspects that the article brings up can easily be addresses - and have been many, many times in the past.
BML is not a 'diet'. It is simply put, a diet base. Something steady in a glider's diet that can be used to start from. The BML used alone is horribly one sided and incomplete. Anyone who does so, has not done their research at all. Therefore anyone who tries to tear apart the BML as they would a complete 'diet' is proving their lack of judgement.

Onto this topic… M.K.'s article is being taken in the wrong perspective by Metztli23. Please reread it carefully.
Diurnal animals and totally different than nocturnal animals - reptile or not. The captive lizards are exposed to UVA & UVB lighting and therefor it's not necessary to supplement with D3. These animals do indeed NEED a calcium source, but not the additional D3. If the animals is not exposed to the UVA & UVB lighting the D3 is absolutely needed for proper calcium absorption. Do you spend $30-40. on the required lighting??

Nocturnal reptiles generally eat vertebrae prey also… which contain the D3. These animals absorb the D3 through their digestive tract, and not through exposure to sunlight.. Do you feed pinky mice to your gliders?
Both of the previous questions are the obvious other requirements to supplying your loved one with the proper calcium/D3 ratios.

My references are most creditable, despite the lack of initials following my name. I was one of the original people who worked on the supplementation that was required to help balance the BML. I stand firm beside the decision to use the supplements that were chosen from the available ones for research.

The VD3 in RepCal is within range, if used properly. Granted Gliders do not metabolize D# the same as a reptile does… but a marsupial in comparison to a reptile is not an easy thing to do.

I.C. - Vickie

Top
#5437 - 03/03/03 07:13 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Metztli23: your post states & I quote:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"Various studies were quoted that all tend to lean toward the belief that vitamin-d should NOT be supplemented in a nocturnal animal."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

You have misquoted Dr. Kaplan as her statement is: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"Therefore, buying a calcium supplement that contains D3 is not necessary for the calcium metabolism. Products such as the new Solar Drops and Moon drops is also waste for iguanas (and possibly other diurnal and nocturnal REPTILES as well, especially omnivores and carnivores who get most of their D3 from the prey they eat )"

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> . Dr. Kaplan's statement makes it very clear that she is referring to nocturnal reptiles as opposed to nocturnal animals in general. She also specifically refers to those reptiles which are omnivores and carnivores whiles gliders are GUMMIVORES: gummivore: "an animal that eats exudates-gum, saps, or resin." (Fleagle, 1988)

You further state: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"Not to mention, everything you quoted back to me further proves the point that Vitamin-D should be obtained through food not supplementation"

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I would agree with you but for the fact that while a glider's diet in the wilds consists of saps, nectars, eucalyptus, insects, bird eggs and small vertebrates such as small birds, rodents or lizards from which those gliders may be obtaining the necessary D3 naturally, the same is not true of our pet gliders. Therefore, adequate D3 is still an issue for pet gliders unless you can point me to concrete scientific data indicating what natural foods besides egg yolk would provide an appropriate/safe amount of D3 without increasing the risk of cholesterol and parasitic problems for pet gliders. BTW, if a D3 supplement is used, it is ingested just as any food item would be and then is absorbed in the intestines and ultimately chemically changed in the liver & kidneys in the same manner as any other food souce would be.

Interestingly enough, I found info. over at the ASGA forum board: Glider Nutrition and diet under the thread entitled:Calcium Supplement Question regarding the human-grade vitamins used in Priscilla's much-touted GliderPet diet. GliderSociety made the post herself on Sat Mar 01, 2003 @ 1:37 am. If I might be the sweetheart you so lovingly called me earlier, here is GliderSociety's quote verbatim:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

"Oh, by the way, a small amount of Vitamin D is needed, and is contained in the multivitamin. ASGS would not recommend any extra than what is contained in the mammal multivitamin"

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">. The link to GliderSociety's statement is: Calcium Supplement Question

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are complaining about the D3 in the BML being inappropriate/dangerous yet the GliderPet diet also contains an amount of Vitamin D as well. So I guess the real issues/questions my dear are:

1a) why is there any vitamin D in the human-grade multi-vitamin used in the GliderPet diet given your adament position that a supplement should not be used?

1b) what actual scientific research do you have backing up the fact that the vitamin D level is safe? What are the credentials of the parties involved in making such determination that the vitamin D is appropriate/safe?

2) is the RepCal calcium with D3 supplement being used in the BML appropriate/safe for gliders? Dr. Ellen Dierenfeld (who received her Ph.D. in Animal Nutrition from Cornell University after studying ecological nutrition of several species in Australia & who is currently Head of the Department of Wildlife Nutrition for the Wildlife Conservation Society and the Bronx Zoo) apparently believes so as she has reviewed/analyzed the BML diet previously and apparently found it to provide nutritional balance in the correct proportions.

3) please explain why you denigrate Bourbon's pointing this article out (given it involves reptiles) when you yourself also make use of this article to justify your position?


As for your comments that Bourbon has not released any research in the matter, rest assured she and her research staff have the data. But let me put a question to you: if you had spent several years of time & money researching and developing a diet as Bourbon and her research team did, would you be so willing to put that research out there for others to use as a baseline in developing another diet or would you expect them to do their own independent research?

Top
#5438 - 03/03/03 07:30 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
BeetleJuice Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 2724
Loc: Summerville, SC
Once again, let me reiterate the importance of keeping all posts civil. This is a very interesting and thought provoking discussion, but if we have to remove your post due to inflammatory statements, your point will be lost.


Edited by BeetleJuice (03/03/03 07:52 PM)
_________________________
Craig

Top
#5439 - 03/03/03 07:58 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


IrishCreme: I had wondered whatever happened to you as it's been so long since you posted. I hope this means you are back on a more permanent basis. We could have used your input with respect to the issue of honey/botulism when it arose in December/January as I know you did a lot of research into that particular issue in the past. Anyway, good to see you back. Please don't be a stranger! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Top
#5440 - 03/03/03 09:17 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I.C. - I have no problem using Mrs. Kaplans article as a source, Bourbon did. Then she used it as a source herself. And I said that was funny. As far as years and money designing her own diet. Let's get real. That diet is a modification of a zoo diet. Its not like she invested all this effort from scratch. Secondly, I never said that vitamin-d was not needed, I said it should not be supplemented. They should retrieve their vit-d from their diet not reptile supplements. My contention is that reptile supplements have more vitamin-d in them than is required for a nocturnal marsupial, as they were formulated for diurnal reptiles. None of you have been able to prove Misty's paper wrong yet. Irrespective of what diet plan she analysed, BML is the only one that has a problem with the report. Not Suncoast, nor any other diet mentioned in there. Why? Because only BML uses reptile vitamins. I have talked to a few people myself this past week. Started researching to prove that BML is a dangerous diet, because Bourbon called me stupid. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Everyone I spoke with said that a nocturnal animal should have lower levels of vit-d intake than a diurnal animal. As a matter of fact, the only people claiming otherwise are you and Bourbon, and apparently this Dr. Darrenfield. And another thing, I still want to know by what authority you or Bourbon can formulate a diet? And by what authority do you think that only you two are capable of doing research? There is a simple theory in science, its called put up or shut up. Misty researched a paper, and put it out for review. The onus is now on you two to prove her paper wrong, not with the double talk and flames, but with research and sources we can check. If you can not do this, you have no right to continue this conversation.

Top
#5441 - 03/03/03 09:27 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
BeetleJuice Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/12/01
Posts: 2724
Loc: Summerville, SC
Metztli,

Email sent. As I stated, the Dr. Ellen Dierenfeld information was supplied due to your request for elucidation on the gummivore classification. If you read the supplied information, and the references to it in my post, neither ever mentions vitamin D3.
_________________________
Craig

Top
#5442 - 03/03/03 10:12 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
This thread has really set my mind at ease on this whole D3 thing. Glideroo and Bourbon thank you so much for pointing out what the article was truly saying. I have found this thread to be very interesting. I for one want to say that not everyone has the contacts that Bourbon does in order to do the research that she has so readily had done. Yes her BML diet is based on another diet, but there were changes and these changes had to be researched and studied to make sure they were the proper modifications for the gliders. Believe me the people that Bourbon works with have very good credentials and surely know what they are talking about. I sure hope we can get Dr. Dierenfield's comments on this topic when we get the chat re-scheduled and working properly. I am sure you are working hard to make sure it happens and I think things will settle down and a lot of minds will be put at ease at that time. Regardless of why or how this has come about it is very educational and a very interesting topic and I sure hope to see more information based on diets. Let's please keep this peaceful. Instead of trying to prove that a diet is dangerous why don't you go about proving that another diet is very good for gliders. No one here is against finding another good diet alternative and we are all open to that. What we are not open to is the slamming of the BML diet as it has already proven itself time and time again over the years it has been around. Let's please take all this energy and use it for the better of the gliders not to their disadvantage.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


Top
#5443 - 03/03/03 10:40 PM HOLD!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ooooookay!!!! I see I'm gonna have to step in here. My control of the english language... and my interpretation of the quotes Metzl and Glideroo used, needs to be addressed immediately. If by chance I mistype something, please do not berate me, as I am typing faster than normal so i don't forget what I want to say.

Number one, first and foremost, with all due respect to Melissa, but there is no Dr. Kaplan. She is not even a certified Herpetologist, although she is undoubtedly considered to be a very good herpetologist and herpetofaunist by the majority of herp vets and researchers in the field today.

Now then... because everyone likes quoting so much... here's mine.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Therefore, buying a calcium supplement that contains D3 is not necessary for the calcium metabolism. Products such as the new Solar Drops and Moon drops is also waste for iguanas (and possibly other diurnal and nocturnal reptiles as well, especially omnivores and carnivores who get most of their D3 from the prey they eat ) as it misleads people who think that they are making up for the lack of sun or other proper UVB access, and harms the iguana who ultimately suffers from metabolic bone disease from inadequate calcium being metabolized.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Now, since you both argued about this very point over a total of about 6-7 posts, I need to clear this up. Glideroo was correct in most of the things she stated. Metzl, while probably not intentionally, was indeed twisting this particular quote. I'll break it down real quick.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

buying a calcium supplement that contains D3 is not necessary for the calcium metabolism


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This statement is somewhat misleading. Basically, it is stating that reptiles in captivity get enough UVB light in their cages to synthesize enough vitamin D3 to then help in the breakdown of calcium in their diet. This however, is very much incorrect. The sun produces an immense amount of UVA and UVB radiation. So much so, that we use sunscreen to protect ourselves from it, we line our houses with glass that reflects these types of radiation, and we even come up with new ways of blocking the stuff from coming into our cars. UV Radiation can even move through clouds, and you are more likely to get sunburned on an overcast day, than you are on a sunny day. Back to my point.... The UVB requirements of reptiles far exceeds the available amount that terrarium lighting can produce. The most UVB any light can produce is 8%, and that bulb costs $40.00 each... I have 2 of them in my dragon enclosure, producing a total of about 12-14% of the Sun's UVB light. These lights are replaced, alternating every 3 months because they gradually lose the ability to produce UV light. Relating this fact to the quote above, a supplement with D3 included is necessary, however not in as much volume as some herpers believe. Once a week my insects and veggies for my dragons are dusted with D3. It is necessary... perhaps not for animals who don't live in desert climates, but quite necessary for any desert animal.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Products such as the new Solar Drops and Moon drops is also waste for iguanas (and possibly other diurnal and nocturnal reptiles as well, especially omnivores and carnivores who get most of their D3 from the prey they eat ) as it misleads people who think that they are making up for the lack of sun or other proper UVB access


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This comment on Melissa's site was geared not towards the supplementation of D3, but rather towards the use of external "supplements" used for captive reptiles. The products are marketted as being able to be absorbed through the skin of the animal, and that they replace the need for UV lighting, drastically saving on the cost of lighting fixtures and bulbs. This misconception is what causes MBD in these animals. Owners don't buy the lighting because the stores are marketting the supplements, and D3 cannot be synthesized without UVB light. Again, the amount of UVB light produced by these bulbs is minimal at best, and not sufficient to synthesize enough D3 for the metabolism of calcium.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Therefore, buying a calcium supplement that contains D3 is not necessary for the calcium metabolism. , and harms the iguana who ultimately suffers from metabolic bone disease from inadequate calcium being metabolized.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

In the case of iguanas, this statement may very well be true. If you look at Melissa's bio, she doesn't mention ever working with bearded dragons, nor does she mention anything about sugar gliders... not even a general reference to mammals. The quotes that have been posted here since Bourbon's original post above, have had absolutely nothing to do with Sugar Gliders, and in my opinion are an attempt to Troll the board.

As for Melissa's site proving Bourbon wrong or the "factual scientifically researched" paper right, it's irrelevant. The FACT is, Melissa never said a word about D3 being bad for animals and causing MBD, quite the contrary. She clearly states that it is the improper use of the supplements without proper levels of UVB (for reptiles) that causes MBD. If you disagree and want to continue this conversation, please visit Ms. Kaplan's site again, and stop trying to read between the lines.

Thank you... and goodnight.

Top
#5444 - 03/03/03 11:06 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi,
i find this thread to be very informative, but i can allready see the end to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
But at least i got out of it what i needed to see.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Tanja

Top
#5445 - 03/04/03 11:21 AM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Metztli23: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
". I have talked to a few people myself this past week. Started researching to prove that BML is a dangerous diet, because Bourbon called me stupid . Everyone I spoke with said that a nocturnal animal should have lower levels of vit-d intake than a diurnal animal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As a matter of fact, the only people claiming otherwise are you and Bourbon, and apparently this Dr. Darrenfield

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Having a vendetta against someone is a poor reason for researching a diet to prove it may be dangerous. It lessens your objectivity and can damage your credibility as people will always wonder whether you manipulated the data because of a need to prove yourself superior to another person whom you feel has bruised your ego. To be a truly successful researcher, objectivity is a must or the research will be forever suspect/tainted. Furthermore, ego has no place in true glider diet research as it will get in the way of what is ultimately best for the health and welfare of the gliders.

To have passion is good Metzli23 but that passion must be tempered with self-control and appropriate objectivity. Do the research for the sake of improving pet gliders' lives and not because you're caught up in a game of oneupsmanship with someone else. And no one is saying that lay people cannot participate in research. Just that professionals with appropriate credentials (animal toxicologist/pathologists/nutritionists, exotic DVMs with glider knowledge) must also be involved as it is these people who can help in the setup of properly controlled studies regarding diets & can raise pertinent issues/questions that a lay person would never even think to ask about. Such people were involved in the refinement of the modified leadbeaters diet we call BML & that is why this diet has been able to stand " the test of time ".


With the drive and passion you have, you can do likewise with respect to the diet you believe in but it will take time, patience, dedication, objectivity and a proper research staff to do it. It is not something that can be done overnite or even within just a year's time. It will be accomplished not by slamming another diet and demanding their research/sources that you can check out but by focusing on doing your own research & developing your own sources with respect to the diet you believe in. You are also intelligent enough to understand that no one who's developed a diet would willing share their research data/sources with others who are attempting to prove their diet is dangerous especially when that same group of people feel no onus to divulge any of the preliminary research involved in the development/refinement of their own diet particularly with respect to what vitamins/other supplements (such as Bees Pollen, Probiotics, etc.) and their percentages are being used in the diet.

To sum it up, you & others at the ASGA certainly have the passion, drive and intelligence to independently find the needed sources and get the research studies done on the diet you believe in without wasting valuable time trying to bring another diet down.

Top
#5446 - 03/04/03 12:27 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well said Glideroo!!!!

Top
#5447 - 03/04/03 12:57 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you Phoenix…. That was what I was trying to say without having to make a huge deal of breaking the article down, as she really dislikes people to do that.
Now… we do not use UV lighting in many of our cages - and neither do many glider owners! Therefor we supplement using calcium & D3 through their diet. Our breeders that have the UV lighting are alternately given RepCal without the D3 to avoid nutty calcium blood levels. We also feed pinkies in addition to the other foods we offer which are all acceptable ca:ph ratios and the pinkies add D3 and many other nutrients that are available through 'organ' tissue. We occasionally use Mineral also.

Metxtli23 - The lower levels permitted for nocturnal animals are due to the absence of UVA & UVB exposure. Gliders generally aren't exposed to sunlight - especially captive gliders and therefore require supplementation. I never said that they gliders didn't need less D3 than a diurnal animal, but that they needed it supplemented through their diet. Geckoes are a nocturnal species that require extreme calcium/D3 supplementation. Any breeder will tell you that's its one of the most important aspect/responsibilities they have.
If you can come up with a 'better' supplementation, by all means do so. Embellish the BML if you'd like. BUT keep close tabs on the things you change, remove or add. And don't turn the tables on BML if you run into problems. (this HAS happened)
We have never been opposed to listening to ideas and/or suggestions - at least I know I haven't. If further research/information is possible and proves to be beneficial to the gliders, we have taken steps to see this become a reality. For instance, those few that are still around from ages ago will remember that the Herptivite amounts were reduced due to a concern with the fat soluble ingredients. Other forms of VitA - besides beta carotene - eliminated quite a few products from the onset.
I have absolutely no authority to formulate a diet. I have never claimed to, either. I was a part of a research 'team' that reviewed the possible ingredients and did their best to balance a diet BASE. (please re-read my initial post). My main concern regarding the BML was with the vitamin and calcium supplementation. You know - not enough, too much or improper forms... what foods will bind to the various vitamins, and so on.
I do this daily with upwards of 500 diurnal lizards and a few other odd species and therefore felt that I could add useful information to this aspect. www.dachiu.com - for the curious ones. I volunteered my experiences, information and concerns
I'm certainly not an expert, and don't claim to be on the make-up, elimination and use of vitamins and minerals in mammals or reptiles - but Ive had my hand in both species for a very long time. Hands-on experience is just as equal in importance as theoretical studies - my opinion.
The only claim I can make is that I try to the best of my ability to provide the best habitat and diet for my animals. They are healthy, happy and the only want they may have is their freedom.

Ah RooRoo... we luv ya. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Top
#5448 - 03/04/03 02:37 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hiya Rob and Vickie!!!

I didn't realize it was you, although you did tell me your name on here in your last e-mail. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In case you were wondering, I am the same PhoenixZorn from Kingsnake... and darnit, I love your dragons. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Gonna have to get a female from you this summer I think.

Top
#5449 - 03/04/03 03:18 PM Question for Metztli [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Exactly what are you proposing to add to a gliders diet to supply the adequate amounts of D3? This is a serious question, Im not being smart... Im curious. Do you offer vertebrae food items - and if so, have you noticed a change in your gliders?

Phoenix - Its the female side of the pair... Rob thinks gliders are stinky, smelly, vicious little flying rats!

For everyones information - RepCal Industries also manufactures a Calcium supplement that doesnt contain the D3. One could always go half and half if its such a concern... but be careful not to cut out too much if youre not willing to make adjustments elsewhere. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> Balance is the key.

Top
#5450 - 03/06/03 11:04 PM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's great to see a thread like this. I like knowing everyone's so serious about finding the healthiest diet for their babies. I won't be getting my Gliders for another couple of days, but when I do I plan on switching their diet (from what I've heard mostly fruits and veggies) to the BML diet (after a week or two; I don't want to give them too many changes at once). My reason for this is after reading these boards (I've spent many, many hours here in the last week), I've noticed a lot of posts written by people who have several Gliders, and seem to have a lot of experience, that include the phrase "My babies are on the BML diet." Until this thread I hadn't seen anything negative about it. Has anyone had a bad experience with it?
Thanks,
Jenn
P.S. I have to agree with Glideroo, the driving force behind researching a new diet should be a love for your babies.

Top
#5451 - 03/08/03 11:06 AM Re: Calcium and Vit D3 in Nocturnal mammals [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


What passion we all have for our furrbabies!!
I would also be interested in an improved diet over BML, but you have to take into account that my heart will not allow me to feed my babies pinky mice or baby birds or whatever else gliders may eat in the wild along those lines. I have learned quite a bit from this discussion. Since you all seem to be much better educated than I am about these things, is there anything that would replace the sap, gum whatever that they eat in the wild? Is that something that they would enjoy and give any benefit at all? I use BML, along with fresh or frozen veggies and fruits, I cook chicken and turkey for them, I try my best to give them everything they need to be happy and healthy. (I think we are expecting our first joeys <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> so I must not be totally failing at this) I spend a lot of time reading the messages from everyone, you can never have too much information about things like this. I just wish that there was more of a comparision going on than everyone quoting the same thing over and over and giving their interpretations. I don't mean that to sound snotty, I don't know how to say what I mean here, I'm hoping you get the idea though. We all seems to want what is best for our furrbabies, we shouldn't be attacking each other. And as far as Bourbon goes, I don't know her personally, but I can see that she has spent a lot of time and probably a lot of money trying to find the best for gliders. She has put in a lot of time and I tend to trust her opinion. I need to search her site and other sites to see if I can find an article about this D3 debate that specifically mentions captive gliders, not zoo gliders or wild gliders. If I find it I will post it here, but I'm sure someone will have found something by now.
Cairn <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
Rocky <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> Adrienne <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />

Top




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
0 registered (), 13 Guests and 65 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
Glidermike, BeardedGlider, saharasnow, Louise, MzT3xdafun
6306 Registered Users
Forum Stats
19 posts in the last 24hrs
6306 Members
134 Forums
8815 Topics
147069 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
'injury' at bald spot?
by josefine
07:19 PM
Hubby said yes!
by Ladymagyver
10:02 AM
TheWildRose311
by Feather
08/21/17 08:37 PM
Joeys and parents long term?
by Pigbat
08/21/17 01:56 PM
Double Critter Nation bedding ?
by Kp3690
08/21/17 11:35 AM
Camille
by Feather
08/19/17 10:14 PM
"Homemade" yogie treats
by sugarfluff
08/19/17 05:44 PM
Joey or Full grown
by kinn2388
08/16/17 09:43 AM
How could I help this glider?
by MomoShiva
08/15/17 05:21 PM
One day too late
by CrypticDelirium
08/15/17 03:06 PM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20200306
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12461198
TEXAS 626508
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 561481
OHIO 483079
Member Titles 431562
MISSOURI 367577
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 342458
OKLAHOMA 328852
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 323199
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017