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#5526 - 03/04/03 10:26 PM Possible Danger in Suggies???

I am posting here concerning something that seems to be happening more and more..I know of at least two instances here in Florida and I am not sure if there is any other instances anywhere else or not??

But everyone knows that I lost my dear Rowg just last month and she went downhill very fast and the doctor said it almost seemed like Diabetes with the symptoms that she had.

I was talking to Monique (whom I hope doesnt mind me posting...if she does i will take it off of this post) but who just lost a glider with the same sort of symptoms that Rowg had. We thankfully share the same vet whom told her the story of my Rowg.

Its scary cause he says that it sounds like a Calcium deficiency and both gliders were EXTREMELY thin (although I know that Rowg ate constantly..I would watch her) She was on the BML diet and would eat it along with her fruits and veggies and either mealworms or boiled chicken every night. I NEVER strayed at all from the BML recipe and I always gave the proper portions for them too.

Does anyone know what might be causing this? Im in NO WAY blaming the diet and I hope that it doesnt come off that way cause I dont want this to start a flame because diet type questions usually do. But here goes my question:

could this calcium type of problem have to do with proper vitamins in the BML ..I mean would it help to put Mammal vitamins into the diet as opposed to Reptile vitamins? Im NOT going to change the diet because I am not one to believe that it has to do with the diet totally. I LOVE the BML and dont want it to change.

Has anyone else suddenly lost a glider? Mine just had two joeys (and I fed her extra BML as well) but she was thin even though she ate constatly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

#5527 - 03/04/03 10:52 PM Re: Possible Danger in Suggies??? [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Taz, did he check the stool? It almost sounds like a paracite as you said she is so thin and eating so much. That can be the sure sign of a paracite.

Paracites are really hard at times.

Keep us posted.
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#5528 - 03/05/03 12:25 AM Re: Possible Danger in Suggies??? [Re: ]

Well, i remember a time in my life when i came down with pregnancy induced hyperthyroid, which caused me to feel a lack of energy, while still feeling edgy, restless, and nervous.
I ate and ate, huge amounts of food, and still dropped weight as if i was dieting. I would have resting periodes, that i felt were needed, cause i felt so spent, and then i would get up feeling energized, and in 30 minutes feel like i'd ran a world marathon. I had to write this, cause the story of Rowg sort of reminded me of this. And one can die from a hyperthyroid, in what's called a thyroid storm, meaning a surge of hormones, that basically wear your heart out to a fatal degree. Ever considered that a possibility ?


#5529 - 03/05/03 02:21 AM Re: Possible Danger in Suggies??? [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
A glider who may be suffering from a parasitic or bacterial problem over a lengthy period of time will exhibit loss of weight. They will eat and eat but the nutrients their little body needs are being deprived by the seceret host.

My suggestion for anyone who has a glider who has lost weight and is noticably thinner over a period of time be examined by a knowledgeable vet and a few simple tests done. A fecal float and UA could save a glider's life unknowingly.

Another thing, a glider who is ill and is dehydrated and also is unable to eat or drink...will exhit signs of hypoglacemia...low blood sugar. With proper vet care...sub q injections of D5w usually will bring the sugar level up and if given every few hours can prevent the blood level of sugar from rebounding until the glider is able to eat or drink in a few days when the medication has had a chance to work.

Also, gliders often show signs of being calcium deficent when severly ill just like above. The primary cause of the illness has to found and treated while at the same time...supportive care given for the calcium deficency along with fluids sub q every few hours to combat dehydration which is caused by the gliders illness depleating the gliders system.

The BML diet plan does not call for boiled chicken to be given on the side. If one is going to add substitues then one has to know how much more calcium to add to make sure the diet is well balanced with calcium per phos. ratio. If wanting to add extras...then I would suggest sending an email to Bourbon to make sure one is using enough calcium to the diet plan. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Edited by Judie (03/05/03 02:37 AM)
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#5530 - 03/05/03 07:27 AM Re: Possible Danger in Suggies??? [Re: ]

Thanks everyone for the help <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He was saying that Hypoglycemia was also what it sounded like...He didnt do a fecal float and at that time I wasnt thinking straight enough to ask him to do one...Gees guess that I should have written this stuff down had I known to have him do it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I feed boiled chicken on the side (not in the mix) and it isnt all of the time, Its mostly mealworms instead but when mealies run short I make boiled chicken.

I guess that it could have been a multitude of illnesses and Everything seems to be blamed on Calcium eh? Sorry for bringing that questioning into the picture...I was just simply stating what the vet mentioned it could be...I kept telling him that is rare when on the BML diet and I wasnt sure that that could be a possibility. I guess its hard when Suggies are so new to the vet world. I will have a better idea in mind should this happen again.


#5531 - 03/05/03 08:49 AM Re: Possible Danger in Suggies??? [Re: ]

Dr. Chavez did mention to me that Moose might have Hypoglycemia. I wasn't sure on how it happend but he told me that Rowg had the same problems Moose had. Loss of weight, weak, pale etc. I don't mind you posting about Moose Tazgirl. I wanted to post the same thing but never came around to it. I wanted to look for some answers too. Dr. Chavez told me this was the 3rd female that was either nursing or currently pregnant that died of the same exact problems. It got me thinking too. I feed the BML with fruits and veggie's. I put gliderade in the cage for some extra supplements and always put Crickets and Mealworms in their nibble bowl. I could never hand feed Moose cause everytime I would try too Peppy would start crabbing and bite my fingers. So i let them run around the cage and watched. She ate, she was always eating BML and her crickets. She licked the Gliderade bowl clean. She was a first time mommy too, I dont know what happened but I'm going to keep a close eye on Lucy. She is ALWAYS pregant with twins. I was thinking of switching diets (PLEASE DON'T FLAME ME PLEASE <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> ) The family doesn't care much for BML if the Herptivite is in there. Maybe I'll stick with the BML but exclude the Herptivite (if thats a problem please correct me) They use to lick the bowl clean with only the calcium rep-cal in there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> I dont know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

#5532 - 03/05/03 12:12 PM Re: Possible Danger in Suggies??? [Re: ]

I would tend to concur pretty much with Judie here. Hypoglycemic episodes, mineral/nutrient depletion and weight loss despite eatting well can be secondary S/S (Signs and Symptoms) where the primary diagnosis is an intestinal parasitic condition. This is what happened to BooBear. As I think back over the whole situation, I now realize that BooBear had lost a bit of weight over a month or two but fool that I was, I attriubted it to his energetic nature. BooBear was eatting fine, had no loose stools,no vomitting and was his usual energetic self on July 24th. The next morning, BooBear was still active but seemed to feel somewhat thinner & I decided we should go to the vet. When the vet did a direct fecal smear, the results were not only positive for trichomonas but so overwhelmingly positive (the vet had never seen results showing as many trich organisms in an animal as BooBear had) that the vet felt the parasitic condition must have been there for quite some time: possibly 3-4 months & slowly took it's toll on BooBear's system. BooBear was started on Flaygl but within a matter of hours, the vomitting & diarrhea associated with advanced cases of trich set in causing such severe dehydration that BooBear loss half of his body weight D/T (Due To) dehydration and was gone in barely 24 hours of being seen by the vet.

BooBear's death was not in vain however as I now regularly have direct fecal smears done every other month and weigh my gliders twice/week in addition to checking the quality of their feces (color, moisture content), how well they have eatten each night, whether their energy levels appear to be normal or decreased. My vigilance paid off when his brother and father were diagnosed with trich within less than a month of BooBear's dying (BooBear was housed with his brother and had regular visits with the parents to keep their bond established). Neither showed any S/S of trich (except for Pip's fecal color changing to a golden color). Because of the new proactive stance I've taken, both were started on Flaygl before the trich parasites were able to compromise their systems and they had an easy time overcoming the trich since their immune systems were still functioning WNL (within Normal Limits).

Believe me, I know that when we lose a glider and do not know why, we think about things such as their diet and wonder if something diet-wise caused our glider's death. I know I was thrown for a loss when Tia died at the end of January because she had no symptoms prior to being found on the floor of her cage and her fecal smear had been negative just two weeks previously. As much as I wanted to just go out & bury her next to her mate, I knew I had to have a necropsy done to determine the cause of her death. My vet was more than willing to do it for free as a learning experience & pinpointed congestive heart failure as the primary cause of death. He then sent all organs off to Dr. Smith in Tennessee at my request for further studies to be done & I am presently awaiting results of those studies.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that we must be as proactive as possible with respect to our gliders' health especially since they tend to hide S/S of illness until they're literally almost at death's door. Things that can help us take a more proactive stance include:

1) monitoring weight at least once/week.
2) monitoring how well they have eatten every night.
3) monitoring their energy levels daily.
4) obtaining fecal smears/floats and bacterial cultures
every two-three months.
(it's a lot less expensive to have the testing done &
medication started early than to wait for S/S which may
necessitate overnight vet stays for rehydration therapy,
5) Have necropsies done on gliders when there is a question
as to cause of death in order to pinpoint the primary
cause of death in case it is bacterial and/or parasitic
condition that could be transmissable to our other
gliders. As hard as it is to have let a necropsy be done
on our little ones, it will give us peace of mind knowing
why they died and keep us from conjecturing as to
possible causes. The necropsy may cost you nothing if
your vet has never necropsied a glider before and wishes
to gain experience/further knowledge of glider physiology
and anatomy.

Tazgirl states:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I am posting here concerning something that seems to be happening more and more..I know of at least two instances here in Florida and I am not sure if there is any other instances anywhere else or not??

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

My gut feeling is that many sudden glider deaths may be due to bacterial/parasitic conditions that can take gliders' lives within 24-36 hours. Without necropsies on these gliders, there will always be a question as to the cause of death and concerns about whether the deaths were diet-related. However, if owners take a more proactive stance with their gliders and consider a necropsy in sudden death cases, we may eventually be able to pinpoint if there tends to be one most prevalent cause involved in sudden glider deaths.

Edited by Glideroo (03/05/03 12:33 PM)


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