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#55571 - 08/24/05 01:43 AM cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've heard this said by a few people.
If you believe or don't believe either, enlighten us with your thoughts and theories on the subject.

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#55572 - 08/24/05 01:49 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


No opinions?
C'mon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#55573 - 08/24/05 02:41 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK Ern, well I may as well make my PM to you public. LOL.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
How could the wf trait be codominant?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I find it peculiar how people have come determine "certainties" like this. Sometimes I wonder if someone just woke up one day and said "HEY - I've decided the wf trait is a codominant trait because it seems like the case!"

Anyways, I'm not sure what they would mean by wf being a codominant trait. Codominance is a phenomenon that falls under the category of "incomplete dominance". In a non-glider example, human ABO blood type group for instance, one allele on a gene determines the A blood type and the other the B blood type, but when both alleles are present, both A and B are expressed (i.e. none mask eachother), resulting in the AB bloodtype and proteins from both alleles are produced.

Relating to the wf phenotype, I'm guessing they may mean that perhaps it's codominant with the colour of the body (e.g. white-faced blond, white-faced lion, etc), but that mentality I'm thinking would be incorrect and I'll tell you why later. Anyway, I suppose since if I remember correctly you once mentioned to me that the head colour and body colour are independent of eachother, then perhaps people have concluded that the wf trait is codominant because having a white face doesn't throw off the percentages of offspring having whatever coloured body...

Anyway, I think this would still be incorrect because codominance suggests that the allele that determines the colour of the face and the allele that determines the colour of the body is on the same gene locus (i.e. is a single allele pairing) which I feel is extremely unlikely, especially when you look at the ratios of offspring produced by some of the more exotic phenotypes. I've mentioned before when you said about the body and head being independent of eachother that those areas are most likely governed by different genes and completely different alleles. I still am inclinded to feel that way.

Other than that, I cannot think of another way in which wf trait can be considered codominant. Are there different degrees of wf (like really white face, not so white face, dark white face?)? I'm guessing NO, so they can't just be talking about wf being codominant like the human AB bloodtype being a codominant situation. Again, some of the things I read in these forums are somehwat mysterious to me...


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Also, people have said that cinnamon is recessive?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, I'm not positive about cinnamon breedings but I'm pretty sure they are a recessive trait. At this point I feel the only dominant trait we know for sure is the allele(s) associated with the STANDARD GREY. In terms of two non-cinnamons producing a cinnamon, two standard greys could be heterozygous for the cinnamon trait and produce a homozygous cinnamon baby.

However, again, another problem I see with people's approach: I bet people may be wondering why the ratios of cinnamon babies don't match those indicated by their 4 X 4 Punnett Squares. It's because many I've seen here often approach the whole thing like gliders are exactly the same as PEA PLANTS (probably the most basic and archetypical example in genetics you can use as a reference at understanding genetics... heck, Mendel used them in his first experiments in genetics, i.e. first experiments on genetics in all of history). Many are incorrectly assuming that just because the ratios of the colours of a pea bean can be detrmined through a 4X4 Punnett Square, that they can look at glider colours and single out certain phenotypes (in this case the cinnamon which they pretty much know is recessive) and similarly stamp a ratio on it. This mentality is a genetics err. I feel the cinnamon gene is way more complex and involves more genetic factors, perhaps even more alleles (i.e. a 5X5 or more punnet square), than that of a pea plant. This would explain why out of nowhere from a long line of greys or other colour phase, one gets a cinnamon baby (haven't I read that happen before), because the ratios are different from the recessive ratios of the pea plant, simply due to the complex nature of the glider genetics. I cannot stress enough the fact that more often than not genetic trends vary cross-species, and that includes glider genes, differing from pea bean genes, that differ from rat genes, that differ from snake genes, that differ from human genes, that differ from fruit fly genes, and so forth. The only thing that remains the same are the basic genetic rules which GC seems to have down-packed (e.g. dominance supercedes recession, principles of incomplete dominance, principles of independant assortment, etc) that are consistent no matter what organism you look at (and the nature of genetic colour phases among organisms are NOT one of them), and with these rules we can attempt at guessing empiracally what goes on at the genetic level.

So anyway the answer to that is yes, I'm thinking the cinammon is recessive but not in the manner in which many on here have been approaching it all (just an amicable observation). Have people bred two cinnamons and always gotten cinnamon babies? If the answer to that is YES then the cinnamon trait is indeed dominant. Otherwise, it can be considered recessive.

Now, if the cinnamon trait is a codominant trait, and you have different levels of cinnamon (perhaps lion, or buttercream, etc) then perhaps it may be a dominant trait, but again if you breed two cinnamons and dont get 100% cinnamon babies (no matter what degree of cinnamon) all the time, then there is no way theoretically that the cinnamon trait can be truly dominant (unless there is some other factor or rule I'm forgetting somehwhere).

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#55574 - 08/24/05 03:17 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Are there different degrees of wf (like really white face, not so white face, dark white face?)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> There are different degrees of whitefaces in a certain aspect. Some have more or less eye markings, but that to me seems to be a trait entirely independent of having or lacking sidebars under the ears. So, in reference to the whitefaced trait, lacking sidebars under the ears, I'd say that there is no middle ground. Either they have them or they don't. One question I do have is, two wf's do not produce 100% wf all the time? Is this because it is not yet a true breeding trait?(the genetic background is still too diverse?) Or are their other reasons that could cause this? Is this why higher gen wf breedings are purported to have higher instances of wf offspring?
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Have people bred two cinnamons and always gotten cinnamon babies?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> People approach cinnamon breeding in this way, but I've noticed that the babies aren't always cinnamon. There seems to be varying degrees of cinnamon, or sometimes none at all(that I can see). Has anyone done any extensive cinn breeding that can notice any patterns?

Buttercream I can say is not truly recessive. I have one female that produces buttercream guys every breeding, not one has ever been grey. The male is fairly standard in color. But, her sons that share the same color do not produce offspring of comparable color, at least to this date.

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#55575 - 08/24/05 04:36 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
One question I do have is, two wf's do not produce 100% wf all the time? Is this because it is not yet a true breeding trait?(the genetic background is still too diverse?) Or are their other reasons that could cause this? Is this why higher gen wf breedings are purported to have higher instances of wf offspring?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yea, Ern, I'd say yes, you'd correct in saying it's not yet a true breeding trait and that's likely because of the way the glider genes work at the present (I feel it would really require thousands of breedings and genetic mutations to get the wf to become a true breeding trait, as you've described, where a pair of white-faced gliders will always produce white-faced gliders who will always produce white-faced gliders when mated with other white-faced gliders, etc.).

*******UNDERSTANDING GENETICS: MODEL 101********

(Now, folks, this model isn't as complex as it appears to be so try reading the whole thing slowly and the mysteries of the genetics may start to make sense)

I'm going to describe why I feel in theory higher generations of wf glider breedings tend to produce more frequent wf gliders.

OK Let's forget about the complicated AaBb model for now.

Now let's assume for now that a glider's colour in the face is determined by 7 @'s (i.e. the genetic code for the glider face colour looks like this: @ @ @ @ @ @ @).

Let's also assume to get a white face you require an [:"red"]@[/], an [:"green"]@[/], an [:"blue"]@[/], an [:"purple"]@[/], and an [:"yellow"]@[/] anywhere in the genetic coding, and in any order.

So, in order to get a wf glider we need the above combo of a red, a green, a blue, a purple, and a yellow @ ANYWHERE in the genetic code, plus 2 @'s of any colour.

Now say you were to have parents that are first generation wf gliders and they have the following genetic face colour coding:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> FATHER (1st generation WF): [:"red"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@ [/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"#666666"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> MOTHER (1st generation wf): [:"orange"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"pink"]@[/]

Now let's assume that when you line up the @'s (which if you haven't figured out yet, represent the alleles) of father and mother, the chances of getting either the father's @ is 50% and the chances of getting the mother's @ is also 50% (which is the case during gamete production). In otherwords, let's look at the first verticle row or @'s from Father and Mother:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> FATHER (1st generation WF): [:"red"]@[/] @ @ @ @ @ @

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> MOTHER (1st generation wf): [:"orange"]@[/] @ @ @ @ @ @

Now let's say that hypothetically it just so happens that the mother's [:"orange"]@[/] ends up in the offspring's genetic code, and not the Father's [:"red"]@[/].

So in other words, we end up with an offspring with the genetic code starting off looking like this:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> OFFSPRING A: [:"orange"]@[/] @ @ @ @ @ @

Now, let's play out this same hypothetical draw between FATHER and MOTHER @'s for the other remaining 6 verticle @ pairings as they translate into the OFFSPRING, and we end up with one glider that is as follows:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> FATHER (1st generation WF): [:"red"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@ [/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"#666666"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/]
+
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> MOTHER (1st generation wf): [:"orange"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"pink"]@[/]

=

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> OFFSPRING A: [:"orange"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"#666666"]@[/] [:"pink"]@[/]

Now because there is no [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] in the offspring's coding somewhere, this offspring isn't a white-faced glider (but it is a wf het!!! It has the [:"purple"]@[/] and [:"blue"]@[/] in there), since we need a red, green, blue, yellow, and purple @ in the code to get a wf glider.

Now, let's assume one of the MOTHER and FATHER's offspring DID turn out to be a white-faced glider and had the genetic code correct:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> FATHER (1st generation WF): [:"red"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@ [/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"#666666"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/]
+
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> MOTHER (1st generation wf): [:"orange"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"pink"]@[/]

=

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> OFFSPRING B: [:"red"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/]

The above would be a white-face offspring because it contains all the 5 necessary colours of @.

Now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> OFFSPRING B would be considered a second generation wf, once again with the genetic code:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />OFFSPRING B: [:"red"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/]

Now take a closer look at the coding of OFFSPRING B (2nd gen wf glider) and compare it with its parents. The reason why Offspring B has a greater chance of producing a wf offspring than its FATHER (1st gen wf) or MOTHER (1st gen wf) is because it contains that extra [:"red"]@[/] in the coding which could mean the difference bewteen having a wf even if the first [:"red"]@[/] is beat out by some other colour of @.

Does that make sense? Read it again. Look at the examples. In other words, theoretically, it's possible that the higher generation of wf the glider is, then the greater the possibility they may produce greater wf ratios due to the alleles in their genetic coding. In other words, if OFFSPRING B were to mate with a standard grey, we could get:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />OFFSPRING B (2nd generation wf): [:"red"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/]
+
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />STANDARD GREY (hypothetically): [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/]

=

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> 3rd generation WF glider: [:"red"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/]

Hence, in this possible 3rd gen wf offsrping, we now have a sort of SUPER wf with extra green and extra red @'s. This in turn theoretically makes this 3rd generation wf more likely to produce wf offsrping than it's wf parent, and wf grandparents.

****<<<VERY IMPORTANT>>>**** HOWEVER, this also entails that even though a glider may be a higher wf gen, then it's also possible that that higher generation wf glider MAY NOT BE ABLE to produce a greater ratio of wf babies than the wf generation before, if you were to get a 3rd generation glider with coding that looked like this, for example:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> Other 3rd generation glider possibility: [:"red"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/]

which would make this instance of 3rd generation wf genetically equivalent theoretically to its 2nd generation wf parent (i.e. both gliders would produce the same ratio of wf offspring, despite the fact that one glider is a higher generation wf!!!).

Similarly, going back to our 1st generation wf parents, it's possible to get a wf offspring with the coding that looks like this:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> FATHER (1st generation WF): [:"red"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@ [/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"#666666"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/]
+
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> MOTHER (1st generation wf): [:"orange"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"pink"]@[/]

=

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> OFFSPRING C (2nd generation wf glider): [:"red"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"purple"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"#666666"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/]

which would mean that wf OFFSPRING C would theoretically be genetically equivalent to its parents (even though it's clearly a 2nd generation wf glider), and in turn produce the same ratio of wf glider offspring as its FATHER and MOTHER (the 1st generation wf gliders)

Overall, the above model concludes that:

1) The white face trait can amplify (meaning the chances of getting wf offspring can increase with increasing wf generations), which would explain why breeders would charge more for higher wf generations.

2) There is no way to be sure that a 2nd or 3rd or 4th (and so on) generation wf is a SUPER wf glider and will produce more wf offspring than the preceeding generation of wf glider (I believe this has been the case, someone correct me if I'm wrong... where someone has had a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation wf glider and for some reason has not seen a difference in producing more wf gliders than any 1st or 2nd generation glider would), which would explain why breeders typically charge more for higher WF generation gliders that have PROVEN to produce a relatively high ratio of wf gliders.

Anyway, for those used to dealing with genetics with the standard algebraiic method (i.e. AaBb), the reason I feel this model would apply theoretically to the wf genetics is due to the fact that 1) the wf trait is complex and involves more than 1 or 2 allele pairings (in this model it's 7), and/or 2) it could be that other genetic factors like multiple alleles, etc are involved.

Anyway, this is the best way I can describe it right now.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#55576 - 08/24/05 05:06 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok heres what I spoke with Ern about so I might as well make it public.

In snakes a co-dominant animal that is bred to a wild type (aka Normal) will produce homozugous animals and animals that are wild type het for nothing (aka normal).

A recessive animal would be a albino for instance. You breed and albino to a wild type and all of your animals are 100% het for albino.

A Dominant animal is what we consider a SUPER. When this animal is bred to a wild type all of the offspring are codominant no wildtypes.

Breeding examples:

[:"red"]Resessive Same Type X Resessive Same Type[/] = all [:"red"]Homozygous[/] recessive animals

[:"red"]Resessive Type 1[/] x [:"green"]Resessive Type 2 [/]= animals that are [:"red"]double[/] [:"green"]hets[/] carrying both type of ressesive genes. (this is where the fun begins, you have a 1:16 ratio of producing a totally different looking animal when the offsprings are bred back to each other.(once again as long as that allele is available) In snakes if you breed and Albino to a Xanthic (lacking all yellow pigmentation) you will produce animals that are double het snow. Snow is a albino snake lacking all yellow pigmentation so it is a white snake with red eyes.

[:"red"]Resessive[/] X [:"pink"]Wildtype[/] = all animals [:"red"]100% heterozygous[/] for the resessive trait.

[:"red"]Resessive[/] x [:"blue"]Co-Dominant[/] = Co-dominant (Homozygous) offsping het for the resessive gene and 100% het resessive gene off spring.

[:"red"]Resessive [/]x [:"purple"]Dominant [/](aka SUPER) = all co-dominant (homozygous) offsring het for the resessive gene. (these animals when bred back to the resessive gene will create a totally different looking animal)

[:"blue"]Co-Dominant [/]X [:"pink"]Wildtype[/] = co-dominant animals and wildtypes het for nothing aka (normal)

[:"blue"]Co-Dominant[/] x [:"red"]resessive [/]= Explain Above

[:"blue"]Co-Dominant[/] x [:"blue"]Co-Dominant[/] = If Super gene exsist can create a completely different looking animal (AKA SUPER) and co-dominant animals

[:"blue"]Co-dominant[/] x [:"purple"]Super [/]= supers and co-dominant offspring

This is why you must know what your doing when your messing around with genes you can actually create completely different looking animal while strengthening the breed.

I think thats all I have for now as my fingers are getting alittle tired.

So as far as we can tell cinnamon, leucistic and white tip are simple recessive genes. and ????? come on breeders help me out here

White Face, Black beauty, and are co-dominant ????? come on breeders help me out here

I hope this doesnt confuse anyone but hey if you have question that what this topic was about

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#55577 - 08/25/05 12:03 AM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mikey, nice explanation, it makes sense to me, especially the generation thing and it also gives some plausible explanation to why some people are having lots of luck with their wf pairs and some having less luck.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Co-Dominant X Wildtype = co-dominant animals and wildtypes het for nothing aka (normal)


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
White Face, Black beauty, and are co-dominant ????? come on breeders help me out here


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">Miko, you believe wf is codominant, but according to the above formula "codominant x wild type = het for nothing". So in your opinion, are hets from wf breedings only hets if out of two wf parents?

I'm still curious how you came to the conclusion that wf and black beauty are codominant? I'm still not at all clear on it. Maybe I missed something? I always get codominance and incomplete dominance mixed up, but I'm of the understanding that both explain a phenomenon in which a gene pairing results in a mixture of both genes being expressed. Incomplete dominance is an even blending of the two traits i.e. red x white flower = pink flower, codominance is both traits being expressed, i.e. something with both black and white patches of fur. With wf I do not see any blending or patching or partial expression. Either there are bars under the ears or there aren't.

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#55578 - 08/25/05 11:59 AM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Buttercream I can say is not truly recessive. I have one female that produces buttercream guys every breeding, not one has ever been grey.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Interesting! Perhaps BUTTERCREAM (and not wf) is governed by a codominant allele. I wonder if buttercream is fairly common in wild colonies.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#55579 - 08/25/05 01:04 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The strange thing is, her sons haven't produced gliders with the same color(yet). One pair(with two buttercreams) has had very nice colored joeys, but they keep getting more of their mom's color. So, they confuse me, lol....

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#55580 - 08/25/05 01:46 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


thats what I'm starting to think Big Ern. Because if it was resessive we would have alot of other people out there including the big breeders breeding hets together to have more white faces and concentrate on double hets i.e. white face white tipped or white face cinnamons.

Very close Big Ern in order to get the blending that you are saying to, you would have to do something that is TABOO in Glider world you would have to breed Mom to Son or Dad to Daughter depending on who had the color to blend (which in most part would have to be a resessive gene).

For example breed a WFB Female x Cinnamon Male Offspring would be some WFB het for cinnammon and some wildtypes het cinnamon. Take a WFB female joey and breed it back to dad to see if you got a WFB cinnamon joey. This would only work if the cinnamon gene is truly resessive.

The only reason I believe white tip so far to be co-dominant will prove out in a couple of weeks its currently a theory. But I bred a WT to just a normal Red Black beauty with no gene ties to WT so we'll see what happens.

As far as your buttercreams go here's my thought the pair of buttercreams have produced nice colored joeys (but are they buttercream ?) and you say that their colored offspring havent produced any buttercreams but, have you tried to breed a buttercream to a different male or female and take offspring for that to breed back to the boy?

I'm thinking buttercreams may be resessive, I really wish we knew how many allele we were working with cause then it would be pretty darn easy to find out using the correct punnett square rather than a 4 or 5 like mike said.

I love having civil discussions versus heated I know everything about genetics and thats the way it is talk.

M

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#55581 - 08/25/05 03:43 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Perhaps, Ern you have a sort of SUPER BUTTERCREAM (mother) and a SUPER-SATURATED HET BUTTERCREAM (father).

I.E.

GOING BACK TO A HYPOTHETICAL MODEL...

LEGEND:

COAT COLOUR GENOTYPE: @ @ @ @ @ @

BUTTERCREAM GENOTYPE: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] + 3 other @'s

____________ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> MOTHER (SUPER BUTTERCREAM): [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/]
+
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> FATHER (SUPERSATURATED BUTTERCREAM HET): [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"yelllow"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"red"]@
[/]

=

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE BUTTERCREAM OFFSPRING: [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/]


VS.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> POSSIBLE B.C. HET OFFSPRING (GREY): [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"red"]@[/]


The above breeding illustrates how a high buttercream offspring ratio could result from a SUPER BUTTERCREAM and a SUPER SATURATED HET, and how I'm thinking you really scored genetically by pairing the two gliders, Ern!!!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#55582 - 08/25/05 03:53 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK so, this...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />OFFSPRING B (2nd generation wf): [:"red"]@[/] [:"yellow"]@[/] [:"blue"]@[/] [:"orange"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"green"]@[/] [:"pink"]@[/]
+
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> Standard Glider : [:"green"]@ @ @ @ @ @ @[/]

Assuming tht a trait is controlled by a variety of allele combinations that make up the "gene", how do you then decide what to term a variation, i.e. recessive or dominant, etc.?
I'm kinda confused, lol.

Would you just say that it(wf) is neither dominant nor recessive, rather, that it's an interaction of dominant and recessive allele combinations?

With the whole buttercream thing. I plan on breeding the female to a different male to see what results.
With her offspring, I have seen little variance in the color of her babies. I was hoping that she would have another female, she's only had two out of ten! I am also hoping that one of her sons would produce a joey of the same coloration as them and their mother. I would then breed those two gliders(aunt x nephew) and see what would happen.

Line breeding/inbreeding seems to be harshly taboo in the glider world. It has its pros and cons, but the development of most unique variations usually has to, at some point implement some sort of inbreeding/linebreeding. It just depends on the line you're working with and the goals you have. It can't just be done haphazardly. Some people just personify the whole animal breeding thing a bit much. I'm not saying go inbreed your gliders at will, I think you get my point...

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#55583 - 08/25/05 03:55 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


oh darn, you're online, I've gotta go to work, I wish I had time to hit you up on that AIM <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />
I'll check up on you later <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#55584 - 08/25/05 05:45 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Assuming tht a trait is controlled by a variety of allele combinations that make up the "gene", how do you then decide what to term a variation, i.e. recessive or dominant, etc.?
I'm kinda confused, lol.

Would you just say that it(wf) is neither dominant nor recessive, rather, that it's an interaction of dominant and recessive allele combinations?

Would you just say that it(wf) is neither dominant nor recessive, rather, that it's an interaction of dominant and recessive allele combinations?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Precisely! Usually we're always been used to working with dominance and recession with some of the more basic genetics like human lobes (dominant allele)/ no human earl lobes (recessive allele), or rolling tongue into a U (dominant allele)/not being able to roll tongue into a U (recessive allele). Straight forward... You know...

However, when working with these glider colour genes, I pretty much feel that STANDARD GREY is indeed dominant and anything else is pretty much recessive (unless they happen to fall under the category of codominance). In this instance, we're using dominance/recession as a generic term for the phenotype which could and probably does have several genotypes, and in effect, could involve a complete mix of genetic factors. The standard greys are perhaps the most difficult (of all phases) to dilute if mixed with other phenotypic bloodlines, and this one reason is why I label the STANDARD GREY GLIDER as indeed dominant. Yes, I have always felt the colours of gliders are a sum of several genetic interactions, as opposed to just a single pair of alleles on a single gene locus. The data of breedings don't match basic Punnet Squares nor are they consistent enough for the glider colour genes to be that basic (again like pea beans). This is consistent with colour genes of many other animals, too. Most animal genes dealing with pigment happen to be some of the most complex genetics ever!

I dunno. Now I remember why I have stayed clear of these genetics threads. It gets as bad as really tough algebra!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />


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#55585 - 08/25/05 07:52 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mikey yes that is correct in snakes there have been instances where one breeds a snake to a different snake and viola you get a totally different looking animal.

As far as co-dominant and resessive, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Correct me if I'm wrong but one animal thats carries a dominant gene and a ressesive gene cannot produce one or the other it has to be a combination of the two forming another allele correct. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

And who says idols aren't smart. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nopity.gif" alt="" />

Hey Mikey In school I had a perfect score on my SAT ACT in Math. I love genetics <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

M

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#55586 - 08/25/05 08:38 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks, WisconsinGlider! I hate math, but it seems we need it, huh?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
rather, that it's an interaction of dominant and recessive allele combinations?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Oh I also forgot to clarify that it could be this (above) or it could also involve other things like multiple alleles. One of the easiest examples of multiple alleles that comes to mind is seen in the fruit fly eye. There are actually many possible alleles that control the eye colour of a fruit fly (instead of just the ordinary two) (existing at a single gene locus), and the colour of the eyes depend on which two alleles are inherited from the parents, which dictate how much pigment is produced in the eye cells.

Relating to the wf glider, perhaps the wf phenotype is a result of two specific (less common) alleles.

Furthermore, it could also be a mix of the above and my last proposal regarding several dominant/recessive interactions (i.e. allele pairings at several gene loci). Making things much more complex!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#55587 - 08/26/05 02:28 AM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just found a GREAT link to a page with a good genetics lesson. Check it out HERE!

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#55588 - 08/26/05 04:30 AM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"]I gave a basic genetics refresher in a thread about mutation awhile back, I think that might help with some of the concepts I see being misunderstood in this one. That thread is really long, and my 1st post focuses a lot on mutation, so I'm going to paste the stuff relevant to THIS thread here:[/]

"Genes are the instructions for how to build proteins. Recessive means that the gene does not make a protein, or it makes a non-functional version of the protein. A dominant gene makes a functional protein. You only need one FUNCTIONAL (dominant) gene to make enough of most needed proteins, so to express the recessive phenotype, an organism has to have only the recessive [:"red"]{a}[/] gene, not the dominant [:"blue"]{A}[/] in order that no protein is made. How does this work? See below:

A "gene" is named for the trait it gives instructions for (like the gene(s) for pigmentation) and an "allele" is one of the different version/forms of that gene. Ex: I'm using[:"blue"]{A}[/]and [:"red"]{a}[/] as alleles of the gene for pigmentation.Why?->

Diploid" means we have 2 sets of genes (1 from each parent). If we designate the gene for pigment as [:"blue"]{A}[/], then the recessive form (which does not make the pigment, due to mutation(s) that occured recently or in the distant past) is [:"red"]{a}[/]. This is because genes are assigned names based on the expression of the non-functional (also called the "knock-out") version, in this case "albinism".

Having 2 of the same version (allele) of a gene is being "homozygous", having diferent versions is "heterozygous". So the "genotype" (what genes you have, as opposed to "phenotype", what genes you show) [:"blue"]{AA}[/] is homozygous, as is [:"red"]{aa}.[/]
[:"purple"]{Aa}[/] is heterozygous.

"Homozygous recessive", therefore, means you're genotype [:"red"]{aa},[/]which has a phenotype of albino. Homozygous dominant means you're genotype [:"blue"]{AA}[/]and your phenotype is pigmented. Heterozygous means you have a genotype of [:"purple"]{Aa}[/], and a phenotype of pigmented, because 1 copy/version/allele of the gene is enough to make the protein to give you color. Being [:"red"]{aa}[/] means you have 2 copies of a version of a gene that doesn't make a protein that the functional/dominant [:"blue"]{A}[/] version makes.

As far as offspring, during the formation of "gametes" sex/germ cells like sperm & eggs, the "diploid" genotype is divided, so in 4 eggs or sperm from an [:"purple"]{Aa}[/] parent, 2 will be [:"blue"]{A}[/] and 2 will be [:"red"]{a}[/]. This means that through INHERITANCE [:"blue"]{AA}[/] parents can only make [:"blue"]{A}[/] gametes, [:"red"]{aa}[/] parents can only make [:"red"]{a}[/] gametes, but [:"purple"]{Aa}[/] parents can make EITHER [:"blue"]{A}[/] or [:"red"]{a}[/] gametes.

Punnett Squares allow you to attempt to predict the likelihood of offspring genotype & phenotype, knowing the above ratios. But it is not a guarantee,it's a probability, like when you say you have a 50:50 chance of flipping a coin and getting heads vs. tails. This is true, and with many repeat tosses of the coin it will work out, but if we only toss it twice? Birth sex ratio likelihoods in humans are 50:50, but how many people do you know that have 2 sons or 2 daughters instead of the "likely" one of each?

Especially if the genetic basis for the trait is not truly known, Punnett squares may not tell you much, i.e. we may assume that an albino is [:"red"]{aa}[/] due to inheritance, but they may in fact be [:"blue"]{AA}[/]and have a somatic mutation that makes them albino,but is not passed on."

[:"blue"]Hopefully that helps set the stage for the rest of my post here.

AS for this topic, I think we need more data before we can start deciding what properties the colored glider's genes posess.

To answer a Q from this thread, an animal that has 1 dominant and 1 recessive allele for a trait does NOT make a baby with both, but rather a gamete (egg or sperm) with ONE OR THE OTHER, i.e. there's an [:"blue"]{A}[/] or an [:"red"]{a}[/] in the mom's egg, which combines with the version of the gene in the other parent's gamete (dad's sperm) to form a NEW combination, different than either parent.

Mikey's post about how multiple genes MAY be involved is beautiful,and very true, but I'm not ready to declare this system that complicated. It is still possible that the traits that make up what we call "colored" gliders could be the result of relatively straightforward genetics, a binary or trimeric system we can work out, we just need to map them out in a controlled manner in order to determine that. The genetics of coat color in labrador retrievers seemed really complex once upon a time, but turned out to be controled by only 2 genes.

We need to make pedigree charts for all colored gliders and their families. Once we have a clear chart of the traits, we will be better equiped to deduce whether these traits are dominant, or recessive, or co-dominant. I agree that whiteface does NOT seem at all co-dominant, that is a clear +/- situation, like Ernie said, they either have the bars or they don't. Co-dominance means BOTH traits are expressed in the individual, like a red flower pollenating a white flower, and the baby flowers either pink, or "incomplete co-dominance" where they're spotted with red AND white. I don't see any such thing in WFB's.

As for the cinnemon mama that Ernie has that makes cinnie sons who themselves don't make cinnies, I would like to add that some color variation could be sex-chromosome linked, in which case it could be that WFB is something carried on the X (female) chromosome, which boys get from their mom, NEVER from dad. Marsupial sex determinantion is the same as human, i.e. if you have XX you're a girl, XY means you're a boy. So, while mama could be giving her sons the cinnie gene, they pass on their Y to their sons, so only their daughters get the X from them, and if cinnie is BOTH recessive and X-linked, then the daughters won't be cinnie unless their mama is homozygous for cinnie, b/c you need both X's to have cinnie alleles in order to be cinnie. Boys only have 1 X, so if it has got a cinnie allele, then they're cinnie phenotypically.

I would really like to start with your cinnie family Ernie, and try to figure if we can find the probable genetics, through pedigree pattern, for Cinnemon.

So, please list the family tree as far as you know it, both the ancestors and the offspring of this couple, and we'll go from there. The info I need is just
Name:sex:color trait(s) and lines of descent, i.e. who are their parents, who are their offspring.

We must start with pedigrees if we want to get anywhere with our understanding of color genetics in gliders. I am so excited about this...our science project![/]

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#55589 - 08/26/05 11:39 AM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


YES!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> LOL Honestly I think it's about time we've put some action into this. I have always been frustrated with myself whenever I'd read in these forums about how so and so phenotype is indeed so-and-so, and how this phenptype is indeed so-and-so hence theoretically producing a ratio of so-and-so. I'd often ask myself when folks have analyzed the in-depth glider breeding data (long lineages and such) and why they haven't shared it with everyone in their reasoning. Truthfully though, I'm probably the most guilty of the sin of INACTIVITY because the only thing I've ever been doing around here is sit around these forums and call people out on errors in the mentality and approach to the glider genetics, much like an insenstive & lazy meanie, and haven't even taken any initiative to analyze and draw any conclusions from the breeding data myself. Marla, I'm glad that you've decided to look into this.

I am still inclined to think that the glider genes will turn out to be complex, especially with the more exotic phenotypes, e.g. albino, mosaiic, platinum, even leucistic... etc. Even trimetric-allele-inclined genetics can get complex (larger than the 4X4 Punnett square, as I've mentioned), especially when we consider the possibility of factors like multiple alleles, incomplete dominance, chromosomal linkage (e.g. sex-linked traits), and so forth. And I'm also not about to venture off into the whole complex genetic world of "albinism". Anyway, I'm betting the ratios of the glider breedings will reveal my hunch, and the breeding statistics will deviate from any of the basic genetic templates (Uh-oh - a hypothesis now LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />). There's only one way to tell...

For a long time already we've been in dire need of an established glider registry of lineages; it holds the key to what needs to be discovered (which is also why I don't understand why certain members on here in the past have chosen to keep their pedigrees of the more exotic phenotypes confidential! That to me is irrational no matter what the reason is for confidentiality...). How about it Ern? You up for the task? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
AS for this topic, I think we need more data before we can start deciding what properties the colored glider's genes posess.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I agree with this statement! As I've been saying for awhile, so much is unexplored territory with the glider genes; in part I feel it's because we have relatively a few generations to analyze to conclude anything with certainty, and I feel that is also due in part to the fact that no one has really coordinated any glider family tree of sorts (no one that is willing to make their data public, that is). The more generations we have to look at, the more we can identify any consistent ratios, look for genetic trends, etc.

I know for many on here, things of this matter (the nature of gliders at the genetic level) are trivial, but in reality this stuff is very important, especially for the purposes of those breeding the little ones. There is so much one can benefit with a concrete knowledge of not only genetics, but more importantly the genetics of specific phenotypes. I suppose that goes without saying...

Having said that, I'm truly excited to see where all this goes...! Let's get down to it, shall we? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#55590 - 08/26/05 12:25 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey we will also be more than happy to start with our White Tippped gliders. Granted it sounds like Ernie has more lineages but hey at least I'm willing to give the information that I have.

That being said I am glad that this topic is being handled on the educational and research level rather than as Mikey said the so and so level.

Genectics to me is so much fun and we are currently finding out so much in snakes and I believe we could also find out so much more if everyone cooperated.

If I were to place a link on our webite where individuals can post their lineage and the database would be able to compile an ancestry map would people use it. Of course it would be done for free at no charge, the main ones that I would do are WFB, Luecistic, WT, Albino, Lion, Black Beauty, Cinnamon and finally (ernie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) buttercreams.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Here's to educating the glider community

M

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#55591 - 08/26/05 12:34 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Keyosmama Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 2175
Loc: Ontario , Canada
I would love if such a website came about. Since Ive got a lion, a wfb and a wfb het, I would have some stuff to add in there! Im not good with genetics but if someone would be willing to help me Ill definately participate! LOL...
_________________________
Amanda, Jeff&

A Pomchi named Wickett
A Yorkie named Meeya
A Great Dane named Berlyn
5 Cats Kamorah, Aiko, Mo, Peekaboo, & Alice
Someday Ill have more suggies... frown
2 skin kids - Xander Finlay James March6 2010, and Rohan Kingsley July 5 2011


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#55592 - 08/26/05 12:36 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> OMG Keyosmomma, it just occurred to me: were you the one who bought that Cinnamon LION boy from PJ's Pet at Yorkdale Mall?!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I was wondering who bought that boy, and was hoping they'd find their way to GC! I was drooling and he was bought before I could save up!!!!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#55593 - 08/26/05 12:41 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That sounds great guys <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
I'll get together some pics to post on the buttercream family so we have something to look at.

Lately I've been looking at lots of glider pics, and I've been thinking about doing a chart of sorts that has variations of variations, kind of like a large photo collage where one would be able to see all of the variation that is going on in glider color so we could see what kind of patterns and things are happening. The one thing I thought would make it work is if I could get pics of gliders from the same angles, so I may have to solicit some photos from folks and toss them into photoshop and go from there.

It'd also be nice to assemble family photo trees, I think a lot could be learned from those as well.
That's one HUGE reason why I always felt that a glider registry should include photos.
We could learn so much if we could just see the actual gliders and what their offspring look like and also what generations down look like too. That way we'll be able to see inheritance patterns, etc.

That's the only way we'll ever figure this out, by compiling and sharing info and openly exploring theories and respecting each other's input. I know I'm no gene expert, but it's great when we can get together and help each other out with info and concepts and keep everyone in the ballgame(if they want to play of course, lol) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for coming by on this one Marla <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
I learn so much from you guys, I should be paying you and Mikey tuition, lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />
I just gotta get the terms straight, ha!

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#55594 - 08/26/05 12:46 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Keyosmama Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 2175
Loc: Ontario , Canada
Mikey-- no... Wow, I am sad he was stuck in a pet store. I bought Arthur, Kayla's lion boy who was born at P.Prices' Gee, I wish I knew he was there.. I bet it was ridiculous expensive though huh?! That place blows me away with the cost of baby anything... *Yeesh** Anyways yea if someone wants to help me Im in for sure! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Amanda, Jeff&

A Pomchi named Wickett
A Yorkie named Meeya
A Great Dane named Berlyn
5 Cats Kamorah, Aiko, Mo, Peekaboo, & Alice
Someday Ill have more suggies... frown
2 skin kids - Xander Finlay James March6 2010, and Rohan Kingsley July 5 2011


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#55595 - 08/26/05 07:12 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Hey we will also be more than happy to start with our White Tippped gliders. Granted it sounds like Ernie has more lineages but hey at least I'm willing to give the information that I have.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"]Yes, please!!!! I didn't mean to imply that I wouldn't want any and all data that folks were willing to share, the more lineages for the various traits the better!!!

And I love the idea about the database. We can make it anonymous so that those people who are guarded about their lines don't have to worry.

I understand when one has spent years figuring out how to get a trait to breed true, especially one that garners a high price tag, they might be hesitant to share that information, but really, we need as many people as possible to contribute.

Mikey, you're right that it could be really complex, I'm just going to start from the simple Dobzansky model and progress as it becomes clear that more genes are involved. The other thing is the different traits(color-based vs. pattern-based) are likely controled by different systems, i.e. there's no reason to believe that the rules governing WFB are the same as those for Cinnamon. That's why I want to make pedigrees, to see if there's a pattern for each trait.

PLEASE, everyone reading this, if you have ANY lineage information in your own breeding experience,please share it. You and your gliders can remain anonymous, I am not interested in identifying the individuals, but rather putting together a large scale pedigree of color traits and presenting a report as to the genetics of color and pattern in gliders, no personal information will be shared, I just need your raw data to study the system.

That database idea is wonderful, or we can just do it as MSWord files sent to me via email.

Again, I just need the NAME...COLOR TRAIT(S)...SEX...and LINEAGE INFO (parents/offspring) to do this. You can use the name of your gliders (to help me keep stright who's who) but on any charts I make I will assign them a code, so no info will be made public.

This is going to be so great! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />

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#55596 - 08/26/05 09:00 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


To research colors what is needed is "pure lines". Mice have been studied by breeding brother and sisters together for 20 generations to create basically clones. Then they take the variations and breed them together. This eliminates many genetic variences and the same experiment can be repeated to create an accurate test.

This would require dedication and a true scientific approach but also the willingness to spay, neuter, and euthanize. This is the only way to scientifically conduct coat color experiments as to limit the variences.

I would not suggest this to be done by any breeder but only by a team of trained scientists working to approach the color questions.

Ushuaia


Edited by Ushuaia (08/26/05 10:07 PM)

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#55597 - 08/26/05 10:34 PM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"]Ushuaia: You're right, we would have to do breeding to create pure lines and use them to study their genetics experimentaly. But, because that's not feasable with gliders, I am using the approach that is used in humans (where also we are not able to breed pure lines...ewww) to study genetic diseases and disorders. We can glean a ton of information just from the pedigrees, if paterns emerge when we have the data. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" />

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#55598 - 08/27/05 12:54 AM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Exactly Marla <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
We can only do what is in our means, and we shouldn't feel as if it can't yield some valuable information. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
It'd be a step in the right direction if anyone wants to start unravelling the mysteries of what causes these colors.

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#55599 - 08/27/05 03:03 AM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"blue"]Ushuaia: You're right, we would have to do breeding to create pure lines and use them to study their genetics experimentaly

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> ... </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
that's not feasable with gliders

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

It is not that it is not pheasable it is that it would take many many generations about 8-16 months per generation. This would be about 13-26 years assuming an 8 month generation interval for 20 generations; however much less may be needed, perhaps as few as 10 generations. Given the research that still needs to be done on marsupials concerning medical issues and genetics having sugar gliders that are nearly clones would be invaluable. Yes there will be defects and yes there will need to be a program to spay and neuter all the animals once they become grandparents. Euthanasia might also be needed depending on the nature of defects that might arise in the line. However through such a breeding program these defects will be bred out of the line and eventually a "pure line" will be developed. This "pure line" will produce nearly identical clones with only sexual differences. Researchers will be able to use the animals from this line to conduct experimental breedings, and study various enviornmental and genetic effects. This line could have a host of vet researchers interested in studying the marsupial model, of which there are no "pure lines" of. The sacrifices that will be needed to be made in terms of money, time, and animals will hold enormous value for the glider community. Sugar gliders will be able to be scientifically studied. Diseases will be understood. Genetic modles will be able to be applied and tested. Fewer drugs will be developed to treat sugar gliders if research is not done and research will not be encouraged unless there are established "pure lines".

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#55600 - 08/27/05 04:27 AM Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


For some reason I just don't think that it needs to be that complicated. We have a huge body of information that hasn't even been analyzed and given a second thought, i.e. family history of certain variations, inheritance patterns, who's inheriting what variations from generation to generation. It would probably be ideal to have a pure line of gliders to work with, but, I don't think it's an absolute necessity to establishing some decent theories about what might be going on with colors.

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