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#558948 - 05/27/08 11:34 PM Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more.
SFPrincess
Unregistered


Hi there,

I've had my sugar glider, Luna, for about 7 years. For the last 2.5 weeks, she has been acting abnormal. I took her to an exotic specialized vet and she thought it was long-term malnutrition catching up to her. Apparently I was not giving her enough protein and calcium. I have since been feeding her Leadbeaters mix and more insects. In addition, she is given a calcium supplement. Last Tuesday, she was put on two antibiotics. The vet said that by giving her the medicine that it would be the only thing they could cure her of if she was sick.

It has been a week now and she still is not better. Behavior includes:

-Loss of balance
-Front claws over back claw sitting
-Walking with head to the ground
-Lack of balance while eating (does not eat with front claws)
-Opening mouth wide and closing it over and over
-Making no sounds
-Biting her own front claws and then licking them (I've seen two tiny scabs on her front claws)
-Drinking less water

She has been eating very well and I have been feeding her the Leadbeater's mix in the morning and at night. She has no trouble taking her medicines.

She is a very sweet glider and it pains me to see her like this. The vet can't explain the behaviors I've listed above and my sugar glider does not appear to be getting better. I am worried that she may be suffering...

I did take a video of her that I will post tomorrow or the next day. Thanks for your thoughts.

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#558958 - 05/27/08 11:54 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
hug2 I am so sorry to hear about your little one. I wish there was something that I can say to help. It sounds like your vet is doing everything that he/she can to help your little girl. The best thing you can do is continue with the medications, make sure that she is kept 'warm', and is drinking plenty of fluids. Give her LOTS and LOTS of extra attention and love.
Sending you and Luna tons of Hugs, and I will keep her in my prayers.

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#558963 - 05/28/08 12:07 AM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: LSardou]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3060
Loc: u.s.a.
if the meds dont work in 3 days change them. you should see improvement within 3 to 4 days if not they are not working. if the vet did a urine culture and sensitivity it would of told you what med to use for the specific bacteria. if thats what it is. but once they are on meds you have to have them off 3 days for the test to be accurate. i would just keep trying different antibiotics at this point and one should do the trick. there are many good ones.

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#558969 - 05/28/08 12:21 AM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: the gliders angel]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
A fecal float and direct smear should be done to look for parasites and/or bacterial infection. A urinalysis with culture and sensitivity should be done as well but she would have to be off all antibiotics for atleast 5 days before these tests can be preformed because the antibiotics will compromise the results.

What antibiotics were you given for her? How long are you to give the antibiotics to her?
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#559714 - 05/28/08 10:13 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: Dancing]
SFPrincess
Unregistered


Here are the two videos that I took of her movement.

The first one is how she has been moving:
http://sfprincessx.googlepages.com/MOV00254.3GP

The second one is of her mouth moving with no vocals:
http://sfprincessx.googlepages.com/MOV00255.3GP

Please tell me if you've seen anything like this before. Thanks.

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#559720 - 05/28/08 10:22 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
My heart, just broke in two. This sweet baby is in bad shape hun. She doesn't appear to be grooming very well which leads me to think she isn't feeling well at all. It appears neurological...but that is, of course, a guess.

My thoughts and prayers are with you both. Unfortunately, I have no experience with this, so hopefully another member might have a good insight. I would certainly consult/see another vet if that is possible. However, it very well could be the result of long term bad diet...but those effects should not come on *all at once* and manifest in all these different manners. Something else is also going on...imo.

Karin


Edited by Karin (05/28/08 10:27 PM)
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#559722 - 05/28/08 10:29 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: Karin]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
That poor angel! She does look to be in awful shape worried I second Karin's suggestion of seeking a second opinion for her hug2
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#559728 - 05/28/08 10:36 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: BeckiT]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
What were you feeding her before? I'm just thinking aloud, but wondering about aflotoxin?
Are you sure that she did not sustain a fall or other incident that might have given her a head injury?

Did your vet give you any calcium (neo-calglucon or calcium glubion) to give daily as well?

I am so, so sorry that you are having to go through this. She does not look good at all. That video is heartbreaking. She is in bad shape, to be sure. What tests did the vet perform? What was his diagnosis? just malnutrition? If she is not getting better, then you really need to keep her in a hospital cage and don't let her roam around like that.

DO NOT give up with just one vet visit. You MUST get answers if she is going to survive. tests must be run. Demand it if you have to.

I'm praying for you!


Edited by Jackie_Chans_Mom (05/28/08 10:42 PM)
_________________________
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#559991 - 05/29/08 11:34 AM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
She does look to have some neurological damage going on or severe stages of hlp. I think the opening and closing of her mouth is her crying out in pain.

How is she doing, have you gotten her in for a 2nd opinion? Keeping your little Luna in my thoughts hug2

_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#560014 - 05/29/08 12:23 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: jacknsally]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
That has to be the saddest thing I have ever seen. That poor little thing. I agree, severe hlp. My prayers are with you both.
_________________________
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#560026 - 05/29/08 12:31 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: pappy1264]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
I'm so sorry that she is going through so much (and you with her). hug2 I agree with what has been said, a second opinion would be worth looking into, particularly if your current vet has made a decision without a lot of testing. Lots of hugs to you both hug2 hug2 hug2
_________________________
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Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#560798 - 05/30/08 02:52 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: jacknsally]
SFPrincess
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: jacknsally
She does look to have some neurological damage going on or severe stages of hlp. I think the opening and closing of her mouth is her crying out in pain.

How is she doing, have you gotten her in for a 2nd opinion? Keeping your little Luna in my thoughts hug2



I tend to agree that it looks neurological.

Currently, I have been in contact with the same vet and she would like to move into bloodwork and x-rays. Of course, there is a small chance of death. There are several additional reasons why I am hesitant about doing it. One being that the vet already told me that the x-rays wouldn't help her "cure" anything. The other, more serious reason, is that I am not wealthy and simply cannot afford the blood work and x-rays. I have already spent $300 on medications and vet visits.

It may be difficult to understand, but I have many financial responsibilities that do not allow me to continue my vet visits for at least another month.

That is what led me to look for community help in terms of ideas on what might be going on.

For awhile, I was torn with the idea of leaving her in her small cage and putting her in her big cage. She was getting better while in her small cage, so I put her back in her large cage. Then she seemed worse, so I put her back in her small cage. I think it is making a difference. But I'm just not sure. I've stopped giving her the antiboitics and am just giving her a healthy diet with the prescribed calcium drops.

As for the jaw opening and closing, I'm not sure if she is in pain or not. As I mentioned before, she was biting her hands for awhile. I've been giving her apple when she bites hard and it seems to soothe her. I have not seen any more hand biting since introducing the apple. (I was thinking along the lines of teething or something to chew on). It is so bizarre.

Anyway, thanks for all of your kind words and support. I hope my situation can help others.

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#560801 - 05/30/08 02:55 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
SFPrincess
Unregistered


I forgot to mention. I have also been grooming her daily because she is not grooming herself. It is very difficult to clean her fur with just water. Do you have any suggestions? Also, she stops her jaw moving when she is being groomed. I think it relaxes her.

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#560844 - 05/30/08 04:05 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
Brittney
Unregistered


Not trying to throw any discredit out there, but how reliable is your vet? Even though she's an exotics vet, she might not necessarily know an abundance about suggies which is vital in situations like this! It might be a good idea to call an experienced vet or two just to get an opinion. I am unable to view these vids at work, but judging by the reaction of experienced board members it's not good. You have limited time for experimentation of treatment so that's personally what I'd do - just call a few vets to see if you can find one that can give you an opinion or two on the treatment. It might also help to post what and what amounts of meds you're giving. None of us are vets, but many have experience with meds and what does and doesn't do damage and what does and doesn't work.

Again, I can't see your vid so your glider might be acting differently, but it vividly reminds me of my Tony, whom I just posted about in this thread which includes a vid of him before he passed:
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=560833#Post560833


Also, one other reason I'd get a second opinion is to try to avoid permanent neurological damage. My Kaya became ill a few months after we got her (8 weeks OOP) and even though I got her to the vet as soon as I noticed a problem, she has permanent neurological damage that causes her to be fairly wobbly and uncoordinated even though she's totally mentally "with it". Not trying to worry, just help you to prevent if possible. Also, have you looked into Care Credit? I have an account with a $500 limit for emergencies and it DEFINENTLY helps me sleep better at night. HTH - please keep us posted!

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#561004 - 05/30/08 09:52 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: SFPrincess
I forgot to mention. I have also been grooming her daily because she is not grooming herself. It is very difficult to clean her fur with just water. Do you have any suggestions? Also, she stops her jaw moving when she is being groomed. I think it relaxes her.


You could use a baby wipe, just be sure to dry her off with a towel, you don't want her catching a cold on top of everything else.

Where are you located? Maybe someone of the community is close by and we can reach out to you and Luna.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#561058 - 05/30/08 11:00 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: jacknsally]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Oh, it pains me to watch the videos of the poor baby. cry

Can you please at least list the two meds that you currently have DC'd?

Does the glider still have diahhrea?

By looking at the videos and from my experience... my guess is the glider is sick with a severe bacterial illness which has caused the glider to exhibit HLP symptoms.

Continue the Oral Calcium. Need to at least have a Culture and Sensitivity done from a stool sample. Cost for C&S is usually $75.

Glider needs to be hand fed. When you say Leadbeaters... do you mean the "BML" or Leadbeaters that is made with High Protein Baby Cereal? The latter cannot be made due to the High Protein Baby Cereal having been banned in the US for over a decade.

Also, you need to put her in a small cage due to her limited mobility. All food dishes and pouch should be on the floor of the cage to conserve her energy.

You can bath the glider with small amount of warm water with baby shampoo. Then rinse her well avoiding water on her face and ears. Use hand towel to dry and then rewrap her in a clean dry hand towel and put down your shirt till she is completely dry.

If you need help with the vet bill please contact me for assistance. Email: JudithHausmann@msn.com



_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#561064 - 05/30/08 11:07 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: Judie]
7glider7
Unregistered


That video is really heart-breaking. If you can't afford to get her to a second vet for a second opinion, will you please consider having Judith help, or adopting her out to someone who can help? She just looks so miserable. I know we don't know for sure if she's crying out in pain, but she certainly looks unhappy or at least very confused.

I think a second opinion and additional treatment is direly needed to at least make her comfortable.

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#561092 - 05/30/08 11:55 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
athena_ah
Unregistered


Oh blessed, tiny thing - my heart just breaks. And if I'm moved to tears, I can't imagine what you're going through. I have said the best prayer for creatures that I know, and I sincerely hope that your precious one swiftly finds the path to peace and healing. hug2 hug2 hug2

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#561168 - 05/31/08 07:09 AM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
How is this little one doing? Please update when you can.
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#561189 - 05/31/08 07:56 AM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: pappy1264]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
For grooming you can also use a baby toothbrush. That seems to work and feel good to them.

_________________________
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Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#561262 - 05/31/08 10:42 AM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: Srlb]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
Any updates yet? My heart broke when I saw the videos. :-(
_________________________
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812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

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"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

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#561285 - 05/31/08 11:10 AM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: suggiemom1980]
MagicMan
Unregistered


I just bawled when I saw that! Im so sorry... Please let us know if you find out anything more. hug2

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#561648 - 05/31/08 11:36 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: Judie]
SFPrincess
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Judie
Oh, it pains me to watch the videos of the poor baby. cry

Can you please at least list the two meds that you currently have DC'd?

Does the glider still have diahhrea?

By looking at the videos and from my experience... my guess is the glider is sick with a severe bacterial illness which has caused the glider to exhibit HLP symptoms.

Continue the Oral Calcium. Need to at least have a Culture and Sensitivity done from a stool sample. Cost for C&S is usually $75.

Glider needs to be hand fed. When you say Leadbeaters... do you mean the "BML" or Leadbeaters that is made with High Protein Baby Cereal? The latter cannot be made due to the High Protein Baby Cereal having been banned in the US for over a decade.

Also, you need to put her in a small cage due to her limited mobility. All food dishes and pouch should be on the floor of the cage to conserve her energy.

You can bath the glider with small amount of warm water with baby shampoo. Then rinse her well avoiding water on her face and ears. Use hand towel to dry and then rewrap her in a clean dry hand towel and put down your shirt till she is completely dry.

If you need help with the vet bill please contact me for assistance. Email: JudithHausmann@msn.com





The two medications that she is on is Baytril Oral and AVIx Sunshine factor, although I have stopped giving them as you guys say that if it's been a week then it isn't going to make a difference. The calcium is Calcium Glubionate Solution and I continue to give her that daily. Luna never had diarrhea and still does not. As for the leadbeaters, the recipe I got from the vet was the one with high protein baby cereal. I just got baby cereal with the most protein I could find. But the fact that it's been banned for over 10 years leads me to question my vet...

Judith, thanks so much for your offer. I sincerely do appreciate the concerns and support that everyone on these boards is prepared to give. This is my first and only sugar glider that I have cared for ~7 years. I may not be a sugar glider fanatic, but I do genuinely care about Luna -- which is why I have presented these concerns on the boards.

As for adopting her out to someone who could take better care -- if someone really felt like they could do better, I would be willing to think about that option. I do feel sad for the idea that I can't financially do everything possible to help Luna, but I do want what is best for her. People on these boards are clearly better caretakers than I am. I am in the Chicago area.

An update on her status: Ever since I moved her back to her small cage, she has been moving much faster when taken out. The last two days, she has not been opening her mouth over and over like she was before. Her balance is still terrible, but she doesn't look like she is in pain to me (but it must be uncomfortable -- I can't imagine it not). She is pretty alert/responsive as well.

Thanks again for the prayers and support. I hope I answered most of your questions (as there are a lot).


Edited by sugarlope (05/31/08 11:47 PM)
Edit Reason: removed dosages ~sugarlope

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#561652 - 05/31/08 11:44 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
MagicMan
Unregistered


Thanks so much for the update! Please let us know more if/when you find out anything. Again, I am sorry you are having to go through all of this! hug2

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#562313 - 06/02/08 11:21 AM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
TracieB Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 4338
Loc: Lenexa, KS
You said she moves quicker and does better when she's in the smaller cage. Is it possible that there is something toxic in the larger cage that is maybe causing or adding to her problems? I know there was an issue with some blue PVC-coated wire recently that it had some sort of oily film on it where the only way to get it off was at a car wash with the soap there and hot water. Just another thought and maybe something to look in to. Or something that is actually inside the larger cage that doesn't get moved to the smaller one? dunno

I sure hope your little Luna is doing better and you can figure out what is causing all this. hug2
_________________________
Tracie
1 wonderful husband - Chris
1 goofy Yorkie - Dexter
2 naughty kitties - Chloe & Alek

Waiting at the Rainbow Bridge:
1 spoiled Yorkie, Myles - April 5, 1993-June 5, 2007
1 sweet :wfb: Xavier - August 5, 2007-May 20, 2010
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#562368 - 06/02/08 01:05 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: TracieB]
Brittney
Unregistered


Hoping for an update, and hoping this little one is feeling better!

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#562381 - 06/02/08 01:35 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
LinksPetHuman
Unregistered


How is she doing. that is sooo sad cry it looks neurological and remind me of what happened to rafiki our first ever ferret (he tripped and fell off of a counter)

i am soo sorry update us when you can. hug2 hug2 hug2

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#562598 - 06/02/08 08:42 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
athena_ah
Unregistered


Oh yes please update us when you can. How is little Luna doing? Any better? I did say a prayer for her and will do so again this evening. hug2

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#562616 - 06/02/08 09:02 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: TracieB]
SFPrincess
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: TracieB
You said she moves quicker and does better when she's in the smaller cage. Is it possible that there is something toxic in the larger cage that is maybe causing or adding to her problems? I know there was an issue with some blue PVC-coated wire recently that it had some sort of oily film on it where the only way to get it off was at a car wash with the soap there and hot water. Just another thought and maybe something to look in to. Or something that is actually inside the larger cage that doesn't get moved to the smaller one? dunno

I sure hope your little Luna is doing better and you can figure out what is causing all this. hug2


That's an interesting idea. I don't notice anything in particular that is different, but we did have a problem with ants a few times. I wonder if that could have anything to do with it...

Luna is about the same as my last update. Although she seems a lot more alert. She's trying to move quicker, but her body isn't allowing her to. She's also been making small crabbing noises which is something she has not done for a couple weeks now. Luna flings her body around in her small cage, which puts her on her back frequently, but I am surprised with the amount of energy she seems to be having.

I recently switched from mealworms to crickets in the mixture and I think the crickets are not as good. I plan to switch back to mealworms tomorrow. She doesn't seem to be eating the cricket mixture as much...

A super unfortunate thing happened last night though... She must have lodged her sleeping pouch against the water bottle because when I went to see her in the morning and the bottle was completely empty and her little cage (and herself) were soaked! I immediately took her out and wrapped her in a dry cloth. After cleaning out her cage, I put more towel stuff in it and she seems to be doing fine now. I've had a hard time getting her to drink water too. I'm wondering if the water bottle is not the way to go...

Other than those things, she's mostly the same. I'm very surprised that she has the energy that she does given her condition and that it has been at least a month now with her symptoms. It does lead me to believe it's neurological or HLP. I've read that you can revert HLP through the calcium supplement. Is this true?

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#562631 - 06/02/08 09:36 PM Re: Help! Lethargy, abnormal movement, and more. [Re: ]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
I've read that too but I think it has to be given at a somewhat early stage. I am hoping and praying for Luna!
_________________________
Connie

812-890-9734, 24/7 Emergencies/Joey issues

SmallWorldSuggies

"The greater the challenge, the sweeter the reward"

"Glide free :rbridge: Silly "Ozball" Ozzie. You left us 11/21/12..way too soon. You're forever loved, remembered, missed."

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My Caramel Gliders anything I need to know about neutering?
by Claralice
12/12/17 04:14 PM
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