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#56625 - 09/03/05 08:47 PM The WF Dominance Theory **
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have looked at part of the WFB geneology, it is commonly known that a WFB can be bred to a totally normal glider that is known not to have relatives up the line that are WFB and produce WFB gliders, it therefore can be concluded with a very high degree of certanty that the WFB gene(s) is(are) infact dominate. That being said if you have a glider that is out of a WFB that does show the trait then it does not carry any part of the gene to make WFB and therefore it cannot be considered a het. It is true that the WFB gene may be infact more than one genes working in cohort to produce the variation but examining the family trees of this variation makes it clear that this(these) gene(s) is(are) dominat.


Edited by KarenE (09/15/05 11:13 AM)

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#56626 - 09/03/05 08:54 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
What about the two WFB hets that produce WFB joeys?????? Or even the WFB het and a normal grey producing a WFB joey?
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#56627 - 09/03/05 09:06 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


But if a WFB and a grey produce a grey isn't it the same to say that they grey overuled the WFB trait that time? I dont know. And then you can get what Dancing was saying before...right??

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#56628 - 09/03/05 09:32 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Really...? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Ushuaia, please do share your analysis of the geneologies, and your reasoning for such conclusions.

This could get interesting! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#56629 - 09/03/05 09:40 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Actually I don't recall anyone producing wfjoeys with two hets . Has anyone?

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#56630 - 09/03/05 09:49 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. [Re: lillysmomma]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Krystal, that would be the question wouldn't it! IF a WFB joey has been produced from two "hets" (or one het and one normal), then there are wf hets.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

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But I'd of had to miss the dance


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#56631 - 09/03/05 10:03 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. [Re: ]
agilitygliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 1425
Loc: Orlando/Kissimmee Florida
Yes I do recall Sheila mentioning in one of my post that yes there has been a pair of wfb hets thats had a wfb baby. I think we need more info before we can rule out the possible wfb het.
_________________________
Billy Rodriguez Jr.

Delfuego Kennels in Sunny Florida

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#56632 - 09/03/05 11:36 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay, here's my understanding, not being a breeder, but having had some genetics education.

If a WFB were produced from a WFB "het" and a normal grey, I think that would have to mean that both were actually hets. If the WFB gene were dominant, the supposed het would have shown the WFB characteristic. If it were not dominant, the supposed normal grey would have had to contribute a WFB gene in order for the joey to show the WFB characteristic, right?

If two apparent normal greys produce a WFB, I think that would have to mean that they were both hets and the WFB characteristic is recessive.

All of this could be out the window if multiple genes are involved.

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#56633 - 09/03/05 11:41 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think it was Flying Fur Ranch who had the wfb from 2 het parents. I've only heard this from a lot of people.

So Ushaia even from 2 wfb parents the joey wouldn't be concidered a het? From what I have heard the FFR hets were 100% meaning both of the grand parents were wfbs. Again I have only heard this so I don't know for sure!

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#56634 - 09/04/05 02:09 AM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. [Re: RSXTC]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I will demonstrate with an example from the WFB line. Mother of Noel is a Cinnamon Father of Noel is a Normal. There is no indications that Noel carries the WFB gene because no other relatives have shown it. That means that noel is a normal possibly a cinnamon het. Cereal (WFB) is bred to Hera (Normal) and has Frodo (WFB) Noel and Frodo have two WFB joeys Boogie and Bailey. Now for this to be a recessive gene Noel would have had to of carried the WFB gene. The odds that he could have it deminish the further from the homozygote ancestor. Since there are no WFB's in his immediate line it is very unlikly that he carries the gene. He is just a cinnamon het normal as they come, nothing to indicate that he or any of his ancestors carry the WFB gene. I can give a lot of other examples of this. I have purchased a WFB. I will be breeding it to a glider that absolutly does not have any distant ancestors that showed the WFB trait. When WFB joeys are produced that will further validate my conclusion. Now that I have established that the WFB gene(s) is(are) dominat basic high school genetics will tell you that only those that show the phenotype carry the gene. Inessence they are Heterozygote if they show the trait, so I guess I was wrong about that because a heterozygote references a genetic sequence not a trait; however I am nearly certian that there are no indications of this gene being recessive and as such those that are selling gliders as hets that do not show the coloration are infact selling normal gliders that do not carry any part of the gene(s) necessary to make the WFB.

There has never been any proof that such a glider has ever been produced and if it has or even if it was possible there have been too few such reports to give any validity to that one. WFB has been bred as long as leucistics have and we are already seeing a lot of hets producing hets for leucistic. If it were possible to produce WFB from two "normal looking hets" then there would have been a lot more produced and we would be seeing more ads on GC or other boards. The fact that there are only two or three cases that have not and can not be validated only serves to suggest that there was never any WFB produced and that what is more likly is that a breeder has mistaken his gliders, was lied to about the origins of the parents, or is lying or confused about the origins of the WFB.

Also in terms of the percentages that the joeys of WFB X normals are being produced suggests a single gene dominat, not that it cannot be multiple genes.

From what breeders have told me:

WFB X WFB will produce a WFB about 70%
WFB X Normal will prodcue a WFB about 50%

If it is a single dominat gene then WFB X WFB = WFB ~ 3/4 or 75% and WFB x Normal = WFB ~ 2/4 or 50%. What is needed is a series of lines that list all offspring out of a pair. It would be best to have pairs that have had 10 or more joeys. Then we can seperate the pairs into two classes, the WFB X WFB class and the WFB X Normal class. We then total the cumulative anount of WFB that each class has produced and divide it by the cumulative amount of normals the class has produced. Then compare the ratios of the two classes. This will give a more accurate representation of what has been produced. I have talked with Judie Hausmann and have gotten this information from her. One of her WFB X WFB has had a total of 11 joeys of which 2 were normal. This makes the WFB percent 81.8% to date for the pair. This information should be combined with lines of similar sizes to give a more accurate overall percentage. Whereas a Normal X WFB of her line is 5:2 and 5:3 (WFB:Normal) which works out to about 60% and 40% WFB joeys. The geneology is important, but what is more important is getting every glider born out of a pair rather than listing only the WFB joeys, as this will tell you nothing about the overall liklihood for the pair to produce WFB joeys.

Sorry about the two deleted posts I wanted to consolodate my replies into one post.

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#56635 - 09/04/05 02:16 AM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DELETED* [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Post deleted by Ushuaia

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#56636 - 09/04/05 06:15 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think the WF line has a lot of surprises in it for us to discover still. It's just going to take many breeders working together to find out all that it has to offer!

Looking forward to reading more about this.

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#56637 - 09/04/05 08:11 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
SweetGliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/17/01
Posts: 2400
Loc: Tulsa, OK, USA
Ushuaia,
I have 2 normal colored parents who neither one have the white tip tail. But have together produced a white tip tail joey. (I have that joey) So wouldn't that mean they are het's for white tip and they would pass that gene onto their offspring(s)? I would say these parents are het for WTT.

Or

I also have 2 white tip tail parents who both have white tips on their tails and they produced a normal colored joey, is this baby a het for WT or a normal? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />


Anita <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
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www.mysweetgliders.com

Owned by many Gliders & Cats + Wife to a Wonderful & Understanding Husband


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#56638 - 09/04/05 08:24 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know about this. If wfb was Dominant then a Wfb x wfb would equal 100% wfb offspring. Because it doesn't there are more than one gene affecting the wfb trait. If more than one gene is affecting the coloration, that means there is a possiblity that some of the genes are dominant and will show up more while others could be recessive and show up less. But, all the genes have to affect each other in a certain way to create the wfb color, so a het is just a wfb that doesn't have all the proper genes, but has some to most of them so that if two hets were together and had the gene combination that would allow for the offspring to have all the correct genes to produce the wf color, then two hets could produce a wfb joey. This is rare though because we cannot see what hets have what genes so that we can pair them up correctly.

I think I garbled this explanation but my thoughts is that some of the wf genes are dominant but others needed to create the wf are not and so make two wfb parents not have a 100% chance of producing wfb joeys. Which also means not all hets are normal greys, even though some may be. They just have to be paired with the perfect het to produce the wf gene.

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#56639 - 09/04/05 08:56 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
CD_Hanratty Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/14/05
Posts: 1874
Loc: St. Charles, IL
This is my view of looking at it

Brown hair is dominant in humans over blonde. Lets say a brown-headed man marries a blonde woman... If they have a child, (and the man had say.. a blonde mother) then there's a 50% chance that the kid will be blonde. If the kid is blonde.. it has NO gene for brown hair, because it required the blonde trait and the blonde trait.

Now lets compare this to sugar gliders

A WFB and a Grey mate. You're saying that WFB is dominant. If the WFB has a grey in it's family anywhere along the line, theres a 50% chance the joey will be grey. If it is grey, it has NO het what-so-ever for WFB.

I've drawn something up to show you better.


The ones circled in red are the ones we were just talking about.

The ones circled in blue are the ones that will show the trait.


H stands for brown
h stands for blonde

H stands for WFB
h stands for grey

we know that the grey has no gene for WFB, because WFB is dominant.


Attachments
450899-geneticschart.bmp (45 downloads)

_________________________
Connor

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#56640 - 09/05/05 12:27 AM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well I would like to say that I think your getting Dominant and Co-Dominant a little confused.

Dominant when bred to wild type would produce all WFB

Co-Dominant when bred to Wild type would produce WFB and Wild Types (AKA het for nothing)

As I have been assembling the ancestry that is exactly what I was realizing. Which is why now when I see the 66% reference because it was bred to a luecistic made no sense when i replied to you before.

I have just contact a fellow friend that works with genetics and I'm going to donate a glider to get the actual pheno profile as well as markers.

M

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#56641 - 09/05/05 01:51 AM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If two gliders that are bred together that are normal looking produce a phenotype that is not of the wild type then yes it is recessive, that says nothing for how many genes are needed, nor if it sex related, ect...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
If wfb was Dominant then a Wfb x wfb would equal 100% wfb offspring. Because it doesn't there are more than one gene affecting the wfb trait.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

No; You are not taking into account the structure of DNA. DNA is dipliod. It contains two copies of every allel. One from one parent one from another. Because of this only one parent needs to pass on the allel for WFB while the other parent can pass on an allel for wild type this would still produce a WFB. Therefore a WFB glider can have the genetic sequence of Ww or WW where W is the gene for WFB. A Ww can then pass either the W or the w. If the W is passed it will be a WFB joey. If the w is passed it will be a normal wild type joey. Therefore a Ww WFB glider can have normal or WFB joeys.

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#56642 - 09/05/05 09:48 AM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Chris, I would go along with this except for 2 things. When you pair 2 WFB's, some times you get hets and a WFB has been produced from 2 hets (contact SugarGliderExress for details)...

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#56643 - 09/05/05 09:56 AM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Cindy Bartholomew with Sugar Glider Express has produced a wfb female this last spring from two hets. These two hets had blonde grandparents and greatgrandparents on both sides. Cindy is in the New Orleans Area and I don't know when she will be avaiable for questions. I did see a picture of the joey. I would also like to pose the question if a glider can have a c0-dominate trait with a recessive gene. An example of another color would be a ringtail that is 100% het for Leucistic.
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#56644 - 09/05/05 11:24 AM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
melovesgliders Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 611
Loc: STL, MO
What Ushuaia is saying sounds correct genetically, but now I do not know since there has been a wfb joey from two normal looking "hets." It might be more complicated than we think. Before we rule out the dominance or recessiveness of this gene, we probably need to hear from the person who has the wfb joey from two normal "hets." Also, with a trait that is codominant, both traits show up at the same time, with one that is incompletely dominant it is a mixture of the two (ex: white x red flowered plant gives pink flowered plants). I am not sure it is safe to say just yet that this trait is either codominant or incompletely dominant until we have further information from breeders on which gliders produce wfb joeys. I am very interested in hearing more about this!!
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We love all our glider girls and boys!!


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#56645 - 09/05/05 11:41 AM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
agilitygliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 1425
Loc: Orlando/Kissimmee Florida
I think we have some years ahead of us before we can rule out WFB hets. Here is what I am thinking. Since we all love WFBs there are more WFBs being bred than there are WFB hets being bred to other hets. There is a higher demand for the WFB. What we need to research now are breeders that are breeding het to het, or start out a program that only is dominated by wfb hets. If we don't do this we really can't rule out the possibility thats these guys have the gene. This is just what I am seeing. I have a pair of wfb possible hets together and I am sure a lot of other breeders do also. WE just have to keep close documentation on this and see what we come up with over time. Numbers, i agree can tell us a lot. But we are dealing with mother nature here and there is never anything normal about that, Stuff happens and we can make predictions but we are never certain. I hope this kinda made just a little sense.
_________________________
Billy Rodriguez Jr.

Delfuego Kennels in Sunny Florida

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#56646 - 09/05/05 01:25 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I sure wish that someone who has produced a wf out of two hets would come forward with some proof! I know Cindy is going through a really rough time right now(:hug2 's to her!)so she probably won't be able to answer this question, but I know others claim to have produced a wf out of two hets... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Another question I have is, how did the wf trait orginally come about? Who bred the wf originally? Did the lines that exist now develop separately? Or did they start from the same line and then get bred out?

I think Mikey explained it well in his theory of what is happening genetically with wf breedings in this post HERE!
Scroll down and you'll see the post by him <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#56647 - 09/05/05 01:41 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
SkyBlueGliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1314
Loc: Northern New Jersey
I have a WFB Het x Wfb Het Pairing!.....The Male has 1 WFB parent and the Female has 2 Wfb parents. They have produced 2 standard Gray joeys earlier this year.

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#56648 - 09/05/05 03:45 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Skyblue, are you saying the female of this pair is normal grey color, but both of her parents are WFB's? That would seem to indicate that the WFB gene is dominant.

I'm going to write this out as I recall genetics 101 explaining it using the following abbreviations:
W= dominant WF gene
w= recessive WF gene
G= Dominant normal grey gene
g= recessive normal grey gene

Ignoring what the pair you are talking about has, and just looking at the female you have from two WF parents, I think this is the only way she could have turned out normal grey if both her parents are WFB's:

Scenario 1: Wg (her mom) + Wg (her dad) = gg (your female, not a het).
or
Scenario 2: ww (her mom) + Wg (her dad) = wG (this is really messed up, though because it assumes one type of WF gene which is dominant (dad's) and another type which is recessive (mom's), but the g from her dad becomes a G when paired with the w from her mom by assuming dad's g is dominant over the recessive (mom's) form of the WF gene. I know there's not much chance of anyone following that. I think the first scenario is more likely.

In the first scenario, there was a 75% chance of them having WF babies because the possible combinations would have been:
Wg (WF glider, het for WF and grey), WW (WF glider homogenous for WF), gg (Normal grey, homogenous for grey), gW (same as the first one, WF glider het for WF and grey)

The above is showing the WF gene as being dominant, with both parents as hets, with the grey gene being recessive compared to the WF gene.


Okay, separate scenario: If the WF gene were recessive and you bred a WF to a WF, they would both have to be homogenous for the recessive WF gene and would therefore have 100% WF babies:

ww + ww = ww

If you assume the WF gene is recessive, you would get a WF joey (shows WF characteristic) from two WF hets (normal grey color) 25% of the time:

wG + wG = ww (WF joey), wG (grey het), Gw (grey het), and GG (grey homogenous).

This is all assuming a simple "genetics 101" inheritance pattern, with only one set of genes controlling the characteristic. That is not necessarily the case. It could take several combinations to produce the characteristic. I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who has never dabbled in any glider breeding. As far as gliders go, I only know what I've read on this board. Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

P.S. SBG, there may be some recessive WF genes and some dominant ones. Your female coming from 2 WF parents but being grey seems to indicate a dominant WF gene, which she must have missed out on getting. But if your male is a het, he would have to have a recessive WF gene if he's normal grey in color.

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#56649 - 09/05/05 04:18 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh man! This thread... LOL!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#56650 - 09/05/05 04:33 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
SkyBlueGliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1314
Loc: Northern New Jersey
correct, the pair i own are both standard grey in color but thier parents were white faced Blonde.

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#56651 - 09/05/05 04:59 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have 2 wfb hets that I paired awhile back. Both have one parent wfb and one parent normal gray. The female wfb het now has 2 in the pouch. I have yet to see what the joeys are. I will post as soon as I know.

KicksNJ

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#56652 - 09/05/05 09:48 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is not the proper way to show this using a punnance square.

First:

W = Dominant
w = Recessive

This is totally incorrect. You do not represent an allel's dominance as both recessive and dominate. It is either or not both.

Second:

To say that a glider carries the gene for Wild Type is incorrect for a Dominate gene the wild type is ww where W is the dominate gene, it is understood by default it is not a sepreate allel. There is no one allel sequence for wild type.

Now to answer the question about the rumored cross. There is no proof that this was ever done. The only way to prove that such a breeding did occur would be to have paternity tests done on the joeys in reference to the parents. If this is done and the parents are proved then this issue can be closed. But I cannot rely on the word of a breeder, no matter how reputable she is, to disprove a hypothesis. That is not the way science works.

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#56653 - 09/05/05 09:52 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


All right, dumb question . . . trying to sort out all these posts lol
What is het? What is WFB?

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#56654 - 09/05/05 10:38 PM Re: There are no WFB hets!!! WFB is dominate. *DEL [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
This is not the proper way to show this using a punnance square.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Hey.....I thought we had this sorted out awhile back? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
It's a PUNNETT square my friend <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Not trying to be a nitpicker, it's just that if someone goes to do a web search on punnance, they're not likely to find much.


Here is a LINK that will shed some light on the origin of the Punnett square.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

WFB = White faced blonde, a glider that has a whiter face than a regular grey because it does not have sidebars under it's ears which causes more white to show on the lower face. These white faced gliders are typically(not always) more blonde in color as well.

Het = heterozygous, it's a genetics term that refers to an animal that has inherited both the dominant and recessive allele for a certain trait. The dominant trait is the trait that will be expressed preferentially over the recessive one.

It has been said and commonly thought amongst glider breeders that the offspring of WFB gliders that did NOT show the color WFB still inherit one allele for the trait WFB, hence, they were called hets because they'd technically be heterozygous.

If you're not big into genetics or breeding theory, most of this stuff will just give you a headache and leave you confused(as it still does to me!). Also, most of this is simply theory.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />


Edited by big ern! (09/05/05 10:51 PM)

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