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#580983 - 07/01/08 11:19 PM Mill Breeder Sandman DFW
bradleyindfw
Unregistered


I have been going to Traders Village in Grand Prairie, Tx, which is a suburb of Dallas, Tx. I went there because I heard that there were suggies there and I wanted to see them. Well we got there and all was good, but I noticed some things that were odd to me. He was just selling Joey's to anyone that would fork out the money. He was selling them to people that have never even seen a Sugar Glider before...you could just tell because of their reaction. He was convincing parents to buy a joey for their daughter...I think they bought. He was telling people that it was ok to buy just one by itself. He was NOT telling them how much WORK it would be to keep it happy. I was hoping he would at least have some cage sets or pouches or something, but there was nothing. I don't know if I'm over reacting on this topic...but I guess I'm just venting and letting people know. Someone had asked to hold a Joey and when they did they dropped it and it broke it's leg....so supposedly he is not letting people hold them anymore! The only thing he does before you can buy is get brief instruction on feeding PELLETS. He has two adults that he passes around ALL day in a heated garage with a little ac behind him...it was HOT....shouldn't they be asleep? He was telling me that he sells them to people all over the world. Like I said, I'm not sure if I'm over reacting...just wanted everyone to hear my story!!


Edited by bradleyindfw (07/01/08 11:26 PM)

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#581086 - 07/02/08 07:09 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
Thank you for sharing your story. There are a group of people who are working on trying to get these mill breeders banned from selling sugar gliders at Trade Shows, Flea Markets, etc. Please take a few minutes to register at SESG Your help will be greatly appreciated.

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#581106 - 07/02/08 07:49 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: LSardou]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
Sadly, he is only one of many and many are trying very hard to shut them down, but it isn't easy. They have lots of money and power, unfortunately. Please do as Linda says, as the more stories like this they get, the more ammunition they will have against breeders like this!
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#581110 - 07/02/08 07:58 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: pappy1264]
hipbchik Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 2470
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Hey Bradley...this is horribly, a common occurance at Trade Shows and Flea Markets...all we can do is try to educate the masses; Whenever I'd see gliders at the flea market in Austin, I would stop and talk to the people looking at them about the care involved...sometimes they'd buy anyway, sometimes not...in either which case I'd write down the web address to GC, and tell them to go there to find out how to properly care for their Glider.
_________________________
peace~carolyn



"Your mind is the birthplace of ingenuity and then you need your heart as the Mediator..." ~Lil C

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#581145 - 07/02/08 09:39 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: hipbchik]
PixTrix
Unregistered


Bradley, thank you for posting! I am glad I told you to share this story with everyone, to bring awareness to the glider community of what really goes on!

I asked my husband last night for a name of a website which had pictures of joeys just OOP, 1 week OOP, and on to 8 weeks OOP. I found a website name in my glider journal I jotted down years ago and I just checked it to see if it was still up. It isn't. A former GC member, Rikki, made the website with lots of information on joeys, including weekly pictures, but the site isn't on the web anymore. I just wanted you and everyone to see the pictures of joeys' growth on a weekly basis.

It is truly sad that Sandman has resorted to this. I remember Sandman posting when I first joined here and he seemed to "care" back then.


Jen

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#581150 - 07/02/08 09:48 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
hipbchik Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 2470
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Here's a link to Glider Joey Growth & Development...I'm not sure whose site it is;

http://www.geocities.com/gliderlove/joeygrowth.html
_________________________
peace~carolyn



"Your mind is the birthplace of ingenuity and then you need your heart as the Mediator..." ~Lil C

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#581161 - 07/02/08 10:05 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
sqrl
Unregistered


Hey I have beenonthe ban wagon for a long time about sellng gliders at flea markets, but to no avail did my efforts work.I had some people said that I was a buddy buddy with them, not true.

Even though I still think it's wrong to sell them at flea markets amd other places, it still goes on. Its storys like this just make me so mad if people would just take the time to research these little guys they would find out that they are a great pets, but they also take time and lots of love to properly take care of them, they are not for everyone.

I will go the the web site and help in anyway possable I love all 7 of my fuzzy butts, and want to help educate people on them.befor theyout law them all over.

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#581164 - 07/02/08 10:10 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: hipbchik]
PixTrix
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: hipbchik
Here's a link to Glider Joey Growth & Development...I'm not sure whose site it is;

http://www.geocities.com/gliderlove/joeygrowth.html


Thanks, Carolyn! I had it but did not look hard enough, lol. Bourbon and Kim wrote the site.


Jen

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#581208 - 07/02/08 11:02 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
r_good12
Unregistered


I live in the dfw area and have heard of this guy out at traders village...and have heard worse stories then the one you just told...signigicantly worse.

Its disturbing when ppl care more about making a profit then their animals welfare.

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#581221 - 07/02/08 11:11 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
SuggieMama84
Unregistered


I have heard here on GC that he was also asked to leave Trader's Village once when people were complaining about him nuetering ON SITE in the parking lot with his POCKET KNIFE. Not quite sure if that's accurate info, but i wouldn't put it past a mill breeder. I wish i could just go up there and save ALL his gliders! My stomach curls up in knots when i hear of stories like this. ESPECIALLY about the SAME PERSON over and over!! UGH!!! And the puppies that are sold there as well are most likely from puppy mills...HORRIBLE living quarters, even though they are temporary until someone SAVES them and takes them home!
The sad truth is that there are TONS of people out there that have no idea this kind of stuff is going on! They don't see it happening so they just are uneducated and have no clue! I agree that we need to spread the word, be their voice and help the innocent victims!! (being the animals)...nothing will get done unless we stand up and take action!

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#581251 - 07/02/08 11:52 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
sweetheart26 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/12/07
Posts: 3305
Loc: USA

there is lots of mill breeders out there.
_________________________





mom to sugar gliders storm,thunder,lighting,snowball,rosebud,winter,string,summer fall and sweet.




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#581267 - 07/02/08 12:21 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: sweetheart26]
bradleyindfw
Unregistered


I have also heard stories of a Mike Mcgraff in Irving also

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#581282 - 07/02/08 12:35 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
Its McGrath.....................lots of mills in Texas.............fact of life............all we can do is try to educate!!!!
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#581326 - 07/02/08 01:26 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: Cora]
cbddallas Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 625
Loc: Dallas, Texas
My Bella came from Sandman, and I have both positive and negative things to say about him:

Negative:
1. Yes, he will sell a glider to anyone who has the money
2. The cage he sells with the glider is too small
3. He breeds gliders by the thousands, and definitely qualifies as a "mill" breeder - I would never recommend breeding a glider from Sandman, but I do know that there are reputable breeders out there who include gliders from him in their lineage
4. Bella was too young - he claims he only sells joeys at 8 weeks OOP and up, but if Bella was 8 weeks, I'd be shocked - my guess, now that I know more, is 6-7 weeks
5. His gliders are not handled or socialized as babies, and Bella was a crabby BUTT at first

Positive:
1. The diet plan he gave me is BML, so he is giving decent dietary information
2. He knows a TON about sugar gliders - if you take the time to ask him, he will answer any and all questions, and the information he gave me is all accurate (not saying this is always the case, just what he told me turned out to be accurate)
3. He told me that he recommends neutering all males at between 4 and 8 months OOP - did not give any indication that he would handle this himself - said he could give a vet reference, and the charge would be $75 - $150, which for this area is accurate

So I guess my summary would be, he ain't great, but he's not as bad as some, particularly some with names we abbreviate with three initials. Don't buy a glider from him, because to do so supports the mill, but I don't think he's evil, which I would classify some as, based on the stories I've heard.

That's just my two cents, based on my personal experience.
_________________________
Cindy, Wife to Dee and Mom to:
two beautiful daughters, Kendall & Reagan,
one handsome son, Dee IV,
one silly American Eskimo, Jasmine,
and our four gliders, the "big kids", aka Bella & Beau, and "the babies" Kandy & Kane, from Cora!

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#581384 - 07/02/08 02:50 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: sweetheart26]
LB_Glider
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: sweetheart26

there is lots of mill breeders out there.


There are also a LOT of poor babies and adults out on craigslist here in the Dallas area. I look everyday just out of curiosity and am saddened by the amount of gliders people are trying to sell on that site.


Edited by LB_Glider (07/02/08 03:12 PM)

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#581773 - 07/02/08 11:16 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: cbddallas]
bradleyindfw
Unregistered


I see them on Craigslist ALL the time!!

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#581778 - 07/02/08 11:30 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
Wanna guess which one of my gliders came from Sandman??? Spencer.
He does have accurate information. He does not do good follow up with emailsor phone calls so I took Spencer to him in person and do you know Spencer lunged and crabbed at him in full attck mode which is very unusual for Spencer..............he said it was because of the glider smell on him..................I think not cause Spencer is around other glider people who handle other gliders before him..........................
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#581787 - 07/02/08 11:44 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: Cora]
bradleyindfw
Unregistered


Hi Cora!! I almost bought one from him the first time...before I finished my A4G Application. I had already been doing TONS of research and it just didn't feel right. I don't know the man personally...so I can't say whether he is evil or not. Not my place to judge. He does have knowledge of gliders...but according to my research for the app it just didn't seem right!

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#581893 - 07/03/08 07:23 AM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
He is not as bad as some - he will not neuter on site, that is another person. He recommends a vet - and will even give you names. He is a mill breeder - and I would not buy from him for that reason alone. BUT - the babies are at least 6 to 7 weeks old, not 4 or 5 as some people sell. AND - when I went to look at bigger cages, he told me why I shouldn't get the one I was looking at - too small and too easy to escape from. It cost more than the one he suggested for gliders.

His cages are small, but he calls them 'starter cages' and tells you that you will need a bigger one. (At least that was what he was saying when I was there.) I would not recommend him, nor would I buy from him, but he is not the worst one out there. The biggest problem is the # of rescues that he generates. shakehead
_________________________
Molly, son & husband:

Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
Sam, Diego, Delilah, Delia :wfb:
Nevada, Noel
Marcel, Dakota, Latte
Dexter, Didi, Almond, Joy and Fitz
:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:

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#582123 - 07/03/08 01:56 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: Mel2mdl]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
Years ago Sandman was on here and seemed to hate mill breeders as much as all of us do. I purchased a male WFB from him years ago and I had a pleasant experience with him. This was before he became a mill breeder though. I was very disappointed when he began doing this. He takes in rescues and then breeds them. He had just begun to do that and start changing his practices around the time I left the community 4 years ago. I personally would never buy from him. He probably gives out pretty accurate information, but does he follow the same information with his gliders now? I doubt it as he has so many that it would be way too expensive and when breeders turn like this they are just interested in the all mighty dollar. There are good large breeders out there, but those are harder to find. mill breeders are easy to find. Just look at all the pets shows, etc.. I have lost a great deal of respect for Sandman. I really used to think very highly of him. It's amazing what money does to people.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#582126 - 07/03/08 02:01 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: Mel2mdl]
SuggieMama84
Unregistered


Bradley- Craigslist is where ALOT of the people said they have gotten them recently and now are trying to "sell" them or "get rid" of them. I emailed ALOT of people with ads on there this past week and he seems to have alot of business out here, sadly.
Does anyone know where he is from?
Wether or not he is educated and experienced with gliders does not give him the right to "mill breed" these innocent creatures. BUT at LEAST he is giving SOME good info. At Traders Village, the pet places there are basically for people and their kids to make an impulse buy on these "cool looking" creatures and not even know what's ahead of them!
I know when i was younger, i used to LOVE going there and wanted EVERY little creature i saw..the reptiles, the puppies, the cool looking glider thingys (lol) and birdies!
I never really knew what it was like behind the scenes and how cruel people could be.

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#582164 - 07/03/08 02:59 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
Brittney
Unregistered


IMHO if you breed too many to personally place each one in a thoroughly pre-screened home, you are literally the root of the problem. I don't care about any of the other details. This is how rescues fall into the vicious cycle of rehoming and/or worse. If you sell to anyone with money, and/or if you do not/can not carefully place each joey out of your home in an ideal home, you are not practicing for the right reasons and you're the problem. Clean cages or not, nice seller or not, older joeys sold or not, right dietary info or not, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. Sorry, just my $0.02. I think too many people worry about the finer details when, for me, it comes down to a bottom line: there is WAY too much over population and too many homeless suggies. If you take the time to educate and prescreen, your suggie has a MUCH greater chance of not being impulse bred and not being rehomed for minor reasons. Gliders can be kept in the utmost of care in your possession, but if you don't at LEAST do your part to send them somewhere that they will stay, you are contributing one more homeless and/or abused and/or neglected pet at a time. I know of several larger scale breeders on here (5-6+ breeding pairs) that are wonderful and put great efforts into their PETS that happen to breed. They prescreen, ask questions, and make sure you have a proper set up and everything you need. If all breeders in the world - of all breeds of all kinds - were like this, there would be severly less homeless pets SUFFERING AND DYING every day.


*steps off box*
Sorry, IDK what's gotten into me today; I'm on one!


Edited by Brittney (07/03/08 03:02 PM)
Edit Reason: apology

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#582228 - 07/03/08 05:10 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: ]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
Brittney - don't get me wrong - I totally agree! I won't ever buy from him again and steer people away Trade Shows in general. I won't buy an animal if I can't see were they were raised - and that includes some very respected breeders. (Not saying that I would go see the place, but I want to be ABLE to.)

He is not as bad as some, but still is a mill breeder, and therefore, part of the problem! 5 of my rescues that have come through my home, have come from there. Including my Mr. Beans who was bought on Dec. 23rd, given to someone else on the 29th and given to me on the 3rd. Poor guy - took all the fur off his tail. Now neutered, he is with my boys and has the best looking tail of the three!
_________________________
Molly, son & husband:

Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
Sam, Diego, Delilah, Delia :wfb:
Nevada, Noel
Marcel, Dakota, Latte
Dexter, Didi, Almond, Joy and Fitz
:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:

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#582269 - 07/03/08 06:04 PM Re: Mill Breeder Sandman DFW [Re: Mel2mdl]
bradleyindfw
Unregistered


It's not that I am worrying about the finer details...I just mentioned "one side" of it!! ALL of it gets to me and is unfair to ALL animals. I just wanted to share my experience with him!! I do completely agree with Brittney..there are way too many unwanted animals...that's why I chose to adopt. I filled out the extensive All 4 Gliders Application, spoke with Dancing and Molly and got the okay from Dancing. I LEARNED so much from that app and I have been doing "research" for a LONG time!! When I mentioned to him that I was going to adopt a rescue, he said that I shouldn't. I decided to anyway. Yes, I would love to have a little joey, but I would also love to give older joeys a home too...my boys Kulan and Pindari are already in my heart!! Not to be replaced!

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