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#58263 - 09/14/05 11:42 PM Bait Shop Crickets
Anonymous
Unregistered


Does anyone know any reason why you shouldn't feed bait shop crickets to gliders? I can't think of any, but I thought it would be best to ask here and double-check.

They're the cheapest I can find and all my gliders absolutely adore crickets. Actually, it's all they want to eat anymore. The vacuum-sealed cans from PetSmart are $5 a pop and I'm trying to find a cheaper way, short of catching them myself (and risking pesticides!).

Thanks in advance,

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#58264 - 09/14/05 11:50 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Have you tried going to online sources? You can get crickets in bulk for really cheap. I'm talking like 1,000 for $7.25 and there are competitive prices out there.

As far as why not to feed from bait shop, the only thing I can think of is that they might not be raised in a "cricket farm" and may have encountered pesticides and such. Also, you want to beware of what they are gutloading bait shop crickets with. Maybe next time, ask where they get their crickets from. ???

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#58265 - 09/15/05 12:05 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Crickets that are kept in corn (or corn cob) bedding post the risk of aflatoxin poisoning. Aflatoxin comes from a mold that is often present in corn (corncob) bedding material. And it can be fatal to gliders to eat crickets that have been exposed to it.
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#58266 - 09/15/05 12:08 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
I've been using bait shop crickets for over a year now. I haven't had a SINGLE PROBLEM with the millions I've purchased by now. While it's true that you can get 1,000 crickets for very little, it IS a hassle and a half to keep them alive til they're big enough to be more than a mouthful for suggies. And you'll have to admit: they're a WHALE of a lot cheaper than $.79/doz like the pet stores charge!
_________________________
Minkasmom (Papillon Kisses)
Slave to:
28 gliders,
5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#58267 - 09/15/05 12:48 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I will agree with you Minkasmom... I work at a pet store and if I didn't.... I probably wouldn't choose that route either. But some people will raise them for other animals as well... I just thought I'd throw it up in the air. :o)

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#58268 - 09/16/05 03:21 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anmaw Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Hernando, MS - USA
I have purchased live crickets at a bait shop a few times, deposited them in the freezer (I don't deal well with live crickets and worms) and got a few out at a time as needed. From post I have read in the past, I have been a little leery about feeding crickets regardless of where they were bought and whether they are live, frozen or freeze dried because of the risk of aflatoxin. I have got a jar of freeze dried crickets, but Stryder doesn't care for those. The only way I have found to get him to eat them is to crush them and mix them in with his other food.
_________________________
Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider

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#58269 - 09/17/05 03:39 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, thanks everyone. I didn't know about the aflatoxin thing, but I do now, so I'll watch for it. I still think it's cheapest to get them from a bait shop but I'll do a little more research on this and try to learn more.

Thanks everyone!

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#58270 - 09/17/05 07:28 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Cheap is not always best. You are running a high risk of contamination with aflatoxins any time you feed crickets. And the ones that are raised for bait are an even higher risk. Sure you can feed them and not have any adverse effects but it only takes one time. Best advice I can give is don't feed them at all and especially from a bait shop.
If you ever have gliders start dropping dead from aflatoxin contamination you will understand the fear that many of us have about feeding crickets or peanuts.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#58271 - 09/17/05 10:06 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anmaw Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Hernando, MS - USA
Charlie,
I know nuts in general are not good for the gliders, but in your post you said crickets or peanuts. Did you mean gliders can get aflatoxin from peanuts too?
_________________________
Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider

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#58272 - 09/17/05 05:56 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Yes gliders can get aflatoxins from peanuts. The ones we lost to aflatoxins were from eating human grade peanuts from a major super market. We only used the peanuts for treats in the morning. Maybe one or a half peanut per glider but that was all it took.

Ellen lost gliders from aflatoxin contamination they got from eating crickets. I purchase feed for my goats, chickens, and birds and have noticed on several ocassions that there would be mold on the seed and grain. Not sure what the statistics are on the dangers of getting peanuts or grain that has aflatoxin but why gamble on your gliders life? The danger of aflatoxin usually is present in corn, grains, and peanuts that have been stored in silos. Any time grains are stored in a place where moisture can collect and mold can form there is a danger of aflatoxin. I don't think there is much to worry about with fresh produce and fresh corn. Correct me if I am wrong.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#58273 - 09/17/05 08:34 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anmaw Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Hernando, MS - USA
Charlie,
Thanks for the information. I haven't given Stryder any peanuts, but I have given him crickets (bait shop at that)in the past - won't do it in the future, not even freeze dried. I know I want remember all the things I'm learning from these post, but when I see something like this I print it out for future reference.
_________________________
Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider

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#58274 - 09/17/05 10:55 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I find it difficult to believe there is *no* safe way to feed crickets to gliders. I would never want to endanger my gliders in any shape, form, or fashion, but they absolutely LOVE crickets. Combined with the fact they will not eat mealies and they will not touch nearly ANY kind of fruit (and I mean that), it is extremely hard for me to find things they WILL eat. Taking crickets away would make it virtually impossible for me to feed them with any kind of variety. They are so picky it's scary! The list of fruits and veggies they will not touch is breathtaking; just pretty much write every single one down and you'll have the list!!

Taking crickets away isn't an option right now. I'll just have to be very careful and I'll keep looking into this. As long as the crickets aren't exposed to corn or corn bedding, there should be no risk of aflatoxin poisoning. It's not the crickets themselves that are dangerous and there simply has to be a way to get safe crickets for gliders. If I have to, I'll start raising them myself.

I really love this place and the people here are fantastic, but sometimes it seems to me that some people are just working triple-hard to find *any* reason they can to eliminate nearly everything there is for gliders to eat for some reason or another. You literally have glider *experts* everywhere on here contradicting each other. It's maddening and it makes it hard for ANYONE - especially newer glider parents like me -to know what is really true and what is simply over-reacting. The truth, as far as I have been able to determine, is usually murky. It's my only complaint about GC: too much conflicting information.

Actually, it makes me wonder how these poor little guys ever make it on their own in the wild... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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#58275 - 09/17/05 11:26 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> It's true you hear a lot of conflicting information here, but that is to be expected when you have a large and very active group of individuals. Personally, I would be more concerned if it was the other way around and everyone was in "lock step" saying all the same things every time.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
it makes me wonder how these poor little guys ever make it on their own in the wild...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually, often they don't. In the wild, a certain percentage of any species doesn't make it, and that's made up for by continuous reproduction. Since we are talking about our beloved pets, we want to keep that percentage as small as possible.

Secondly, most of the "dangers" we worry about in keeping gliders in captivity are not problems they face in the wild. A perfect example is the fact that the number 1 killer of gliders in captivity is drowning in the toilet. There are no toilets in the Australian bush! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure some Australian hikers have wished otherwise. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Aflatoxin is another manmade problem. Crickets in the wild aren't kept on corn bedding and therefore aren't exposed to the aflatoxin risk that domestically raised crickets are. I've thought a lot about the whole aflatoxin issue. I even had the guy at Petco call their supplier to ask what the crickets are raised on, but wasn't able to get a satisfactory answer. If I find a local supplier who can assure me that the crickets aren't raised on corn, I will start feeding crickets, but not until then. I don't think I can have them shipped at least except in winter because it's so hot here. I was in the pet shop one day when a lady brought back a bag of crickets because they hadn't survived the drive home in her un-airconditioned car and the shop owner said there was nothing he could do.

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#58276 - 09/18/05 05:41 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
It is true that the crickets themselves are not a problem but the way they are raised. Most people who raise crickets for bait are not overly concerned with the crickets hygiene. It is allowing the corn cob or corn meal to get moist and mold that creates the problem. Even if you raise your own crickets you could encounter the same problem unless you are careful with the practices you use.

The aflatoxin issue is not an old wives tale or someone just trying to create sensationalism. It is a real issue. Though not common it should be taken into consideration when choosing what to feed your gliders. Feed only insects and worms that come from reputable businesses that raise them for pet consumption. The reputation and past history of the supplier is very important although no guarantee that you are receiving 100% safe pet food. The contaminated peanuts we gave our gliders came from one of the leading food chains in the world and were considered to be human safe.

As far as a glider starving to death if it doesn't get crickets that is not likely. Gliders can live quiet well on any of the more popular diets like BML or Suncoast. It is up to the owner to feed them properly and eliminate the extras. It is like feeding a dog table scraps. If you allow a dog to get in the habit of eating people food it will not touch dog food. The problem does not lie within the dog but the people taking care of the dog. Same holds true with gliders. It is easy to allow them to form poor eating habits and very difficult to change them once you do.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#58277 - 09/18/05 04:38 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anmaw Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Hernando, MS - USA
Peeper and Charlie,
Loved both of your last two post and Charlie with as many rescues that you take care I know you have to stay abreast of information like crickets to insure they stay healthy.

The thing about pets not eating properly is absolutely correct. They learn to be picky eaters, just like children do. When Stryder came to our home, he was on dry food pellets (not that he liked it) with occasional fruits and veggies. He is on a proper diet now which includes a variety of fruits and veggies and he gets plenty of protein without the crickets. He pretty well cleans his bowl every night.
_________________________
Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider

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#58278 - 09/18/05 04:57 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Charlie,
What happens when you freeze potential sources for aflatoxins, like peanuts? Does freezing eliminate the problem? I have some peanuts that have been frozen for a couple of months now, but wonder about their safety. Thanks.

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#58279 - 09/19/05 12:41 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


PeeperKeeper/CharlieH,

Peeper: When I said I didn't know how these guys lived without us in the wild, I was being facetious. Thus, the little graemlin with his tongue hanging out... It was an indication of my frustration, not an actual statement. I'm very familiar with the life expectancy and living conditions of gliders in the wild through my own in-depth research into the topic. Thanks for replying though!

CharlieH: Everything I feed my gliders comes from GC recommendations - including crickets. I did not say or insinuate that your aflatoxin comments were false or sensationalistic. I just disagree with you that something should be totally abandoned because there are some risks involved. ANY food can spoil or be bad in some way, regardless of what it is. Like your store bought peanuts, for example. Diligence is required in ALL instances and caring for exotics is always problematic at best.

Further, I absolutely do NOT give my gliders anything outside of what I have found here on this site. I have been a glider parent for about 7 months now and I have not given any of my gliders *ANY* "people" food even once during that time. That is a true fact.

Also, I did not say at any point that my gliders would starve to death without crickets. That is useless hyperbole on your part. If you read my last post very carefully you will realize I was merely expressing concern for their extremely finicky natures. Simply put, my gliders will not eat ANY fruit save the occasional red grape and a bit of watermelon. This is not exaggeration or guesswork - it is 100% tried and tested. I have tried and tried and tried every single GC-approved fruit there is and my gliders won't have ANYTHING to do with any of them. Frankly, it's astounding to me how picky they are. The sum total of what they WILL eat is frighteningly short and my concern is with getting them variety. Sure, I can take crickets out of the equation, but that leaves precious little they WILL eat. Your response implies that I do not take adequate measures to feed my gliders properly and I resent that because nothing is further from the truth. I spend an enormous amount of time seeing to my little furry charges and they have NO bad eating habits. None. Not everyone chooses to use the glider diet you do and your choice is not the only effective way of feeding gliders. This has been proven conclusively.

I greatly appreciate your comments on aflatoxin poisoning and I will look into it further, but I am not prepared to give up on something that has been so effective at the slightest hint of trouble. There are difficulties and potential disasters in EVERYTHING we feed our gliders, including BML if it isn't done properly or one or more of the ingredients are bad.

Gliders are largely insectivores in the wild, so feeding them a diet completely free of any type of insect is actually what is unnatural, in my opinion. I won't give up on crickets just because they require some extra work. My gliders love 'em and that's enough for me.

Thank you,

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#58280 - 09/19/05 06:41 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Freezing does not eliminate the threat of aflatoxins.

I do not promote any particular diet. The thing I do know is that most gliders that are picky eaters are the result of the way they are fed. And believe it or not gliders can live quiet well without any worms or insects in their diets. We have one that was 15 years old in August of this year and he has never eaten any insects or worms. And several others that are ten to twelve years old that have been on insect and worm free diets. These are all healthy gliders that never have to see a vet and as far as I can tell have never developed any mental issues. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not wanting to seem sarcastic or a know it all but the problem with most gliders that are pickey eaters is not the glider but the caretaker. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#58281 - 09/19/05 02:27 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
A good thing to do is a search on Aflatoxins on this board. There is alot of reading about it.

I too gave ONLY crickets from large reputal farms. I fed them for years. Then one day I bought a new box of them and 3 weeks later I started loosing gliders one after the other. Necropsy's showed Aflatoxins. I sent the crickets, bedding and gliders to Texas A&M Toxicologist. He confirmed the fact that the bedding had the toxin in it and so did the crickets and gliders. The crickets DNA bonds with the toxins and it can take up to 3 months or more for the gliders to get to the point of death. There was NO warnigs. And he further said that if ONE cricket had a large amount of the toxin and the glider ate it, the glier could die within hours. It totally attacks the liver and can either be slow or fast.

I urge you to do some reading on this from the search feature. They are also in Best of the Board.

Good luck
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#58282 - 09/19/05 11:51 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


What about the "Can 'O Crickets" from PetSmart? The crickets come vacuum-sealed in small cans that run about $5 a pop. So far, that is the only crickets I've fed my gliders. Does anyone have any information about these?

Thanks,
Ron

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#58283 - 09/20/05 12:34 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ugh! "Can o Crickets" is one of those things I bought before I brought my first glider home. When I opened that can and looked at and smelled that stuff, I wondered for a second if I really wanted a pet that ate that! I was happy she refused it (now I know that was probably because she was too young to know what it was) and threw it out post-haste!

But if you don't mind messing with C O' C, more power to ya, I think it's probably safe.

GBOF - Sorry, I didn't mean to sound condescending or like I was lecturing you. I just seem to see that comment about "how do they ever make it" a lot, and it bugs me. I figure if we introduce the hazards, we should do our best to help them steer clear of them.

I especially worry about bait shop crickets because they are being raised to catch fish. Obviously the well-being of the fish is not a high priority, so who cares if the crickets live on moist corn bedding? This is not a comment on fishermen before anyone gets bent out of shape. I love to fish, but I never used crickets as bait, not because I was worried about aflatoxin poisoning of fish, but just because I never had the opportunity. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Looks like this is turning into another one of those "hot" diet topics. We were doing so well there for a while! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />

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#58284 - 09/20/05 01:36 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


PeeperK & CharlieH,

Ok. Where to start....

First, I DO NOT want to light off a huge diet free-for-all. I swear on everything important to me that my *ONLY* concern is the health and safety of my little furbutts! I highly value the info and help I get here and I sincerely mean that! I also agree 1000000000% that, as glider owners, we have a big responsibility to them. They never asked to come live with us! I happen to think our glider's lives are much richer and more enjoyable with the right keepers, but that's just me. Either way peeperkeeper, I agree with you.

PeeperK: My kids absolutely LOVE those Can 'O Crickets. The reason I started asking all these cricket questions, though, is because those things cost a FORTUNE. I'm just tryin' to find a cheaper way, but not at the risk of my glider's lives! I'm going to call that company this week, too. I will report my findings to GC.

CharlieH: Thank you for all your help! I am absolutely NOT trying to be combative or confrontational in any way. It only bothers me to think that ANYONE could doubt the enormous commitment of time, energy, and effort that I make on behalf of my gliders! I am utterly devoted and addicted to them!

Now, with that said, allow me to say this: You are an experienced breeder and longtime glider owner and you most *definitely* possess a vast wealth of knowledge that I do not. I do not question that knowledge and experience in any shape, form, or fashion. I understand what you're saying about crickets and, further, I agree totally. I'm just not ready to give up on crickets yet! That's my nature, I guess: where there's a will, there's a way, right?

Anyway, I do understand what you're saying about owners messing up glider diets, but I can't attribute that to myself because I work sooooo hard at this! I give my gliders fresh fruit daily, how can I possibly screw that up in any way!? How can anyone? I'd be interested in hearing your reply. To help you, I m going to detail below *exactly* how I care for my kids. If there are holes or mistakes, please do not hesitate to tell me!!! Anyone!!! I mean that!

I only have a problem with conjecture or supposition - not actual factuals. I really don't mind holding myself to the flame if it benefits my little fuzzy friends. I owe it to them to get it right. Here goes:

They are on the Darcy diet. That means they get the Ensure mixture daily (1 frozen tblspn cube per day, per glider)

They also get fresh water daily, without fail.

Here is the total list of things they will eat and I will leave NOTHING out. I feed them on disposable paper plates once per day, with a treat in the mornings:

Briskies Yogurt Drops (They love 'em, I use as treats)
Can 'O Crickets (Approx. 1/2 - 1 can, per day)
Yogurt (They used to gobble it down, now they barely touch it - any flavor)
Gerber Turkey or Chicken Sticks (They love these. 1 stick per glider when fed)
Red Grapes (One glider will eat about half of one and the other glider won't touch them)
Watermelon (Sometimes yes, sometimes no)
Green Beans (A little bit, but sparingly)
Frozen Spinach (A little bit, but sparingly)
Cat Food (They steal a bit from my kitties...)

That's it. They will not eat anything else I've tried and I've tried EVERYTHING I can think of. That includes scrambled eggs (no oil), boiled chicken, carrots, peas, canteloupe, honeydew, plums, sweet potatoes, tangerines, nectarines, bananas, apples (green, red, etc), pears, green grapes, peaches, cucumber, mushrooms, kiwi, 30 flavors of yogurt, meal worms (alive, dead, cut, smashed, etc, etc) There's more, but I can't remember it all off the top of my head.

I do not ever feed: citrus of any kind, green peppers, watermelon seeds, regular seeded grapes, raw potato (sweet & regular), chocolate or any other "human" food

I desperately want to get this right. They have done so well on the Darcy diet and they are very active and seem to be happy, but that means nada with these guys. They are sleek with shiny coats and their joey is doing fabulous, but I worry about variety. The only thing I can come up with is that the Ensure mix is so sweet it has put them off fruit altogether. I'm really close to switching to BML because this is literally worrying me sick. I don't know what else to do!!!!! I am *enormously* frustrated!!

Thoughts? Questions? Comments? Concerns? I really, really, REALLY want to figure this out.

Thanks,
Ron

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#58285 - 09/20/05 05:29 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Few people who say they feed a particular diet do it exactly according to the directions. Everyone seems to have their own little variation. For instance with the BML which almost everyone is familiar with there are so many different approaches. Some feed frozen fruits and vegetables. Some leave the lima beans in some don't. Some blend the fruits and add various juices. Some feed extra chicken or insects and worms, some don't. I seriously doubt you can find two people who say they feed the BML diet that mix and feed it the same. This holds true for all the other glider diets.

The main thing is to try and eliminate things that are potentially harmful to your gliders and to not include any items that will throw the diets out of balance. Of course you can get a million opinions as to what a balanced diet is. We try to stay within the ranges of the more popular diets when it comes to protein, cal/phosphorus ratio, sugar content, etc.

My concerns with aflatoxin dangers from feeding bait shop crickets comes from the experiences of others. I am not going to tell you that your gliders are going to fall over dead if you feed them crickets. Simply trying to point out that there is a risk involved and that caution should be used when selecting where you purchase them. Having had a round with aflatoxins and hearing of others experiences I prefer to avoid the risk. Especially since crickets are not an essential part of a gliders diet. Why take the chance? But then again maybe we are overly protective. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#58286 - 09/21/05 02:02 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


And there it is. Or maybe I should say, there it ain't. I was hoping for specific commentary about what I'm feeding my gliders and I can't seem to accomplish that aim regardless of how I approach it.

There is plenty of 'advice' and endless 'opinions' to be found here, but every time I've taken the time to post the exact diet I'm feeding my kids, everyone suddenly disappears or starts speaking in generalities. I understand there have been some contentious diet threads here, but I'm just trying to figure out what's best for my gliders, not stir up trouble. Everyone has something to add until I ask for specifics. It's enormously frustrating.

Me being me, I try to deal with facts. I've read so many well-intentioned posts or threads here that say things like "might be" "could be" "maybe" "possibly" "some studies showed..." or something similar and I just can't take those as factual without some additional substantiation.

The last thing I want to do is offend or alienate anyone, but I just can't feel bad for wanting scientific proof to substantiate some of the claims made here. (For the record, I am *not* talking about aflatoxins! I believe in those 100%!)

I'm just trying to learn - not offend or alienate anyone - and there seems to be a mass panic reflex here when someone posts even the most obscure things. When I hear that corn bedding or corn products can cause aflatoxins to form in crickets, I don't think "Hey! I have to stay away from crickets!" I think: "Hey, how can I get crickets that are 100% aflatoxin safe?" Not because I'm stubborn, but because my gliders looove crickets and I don't give up easily. My research may reveal that there is no way to guarantee such a thing, but I haven't reached that point yet. Maybe there IS a safe way to feed crickets and, if there is, then I want to find it. If I manage to do so, I will be eager to share that information with everyone here at GC.

Until then, I guess I'll just have to go on being a pain in the neck to everyone here at GC... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

CharlieH: Thank you for staying around on this thread. I do appreciate your time and effort!

Sincerely,
Ron

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#58287 - 09/21/05 06:24 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Ron if I took the items you listed and comented on them one by one it would only be my opinion. And you would surely have others who would for various reasons disagree with me. You could have a complete thread on each item and would at the bottom line only have a bunch of educated guesses and some not so educated. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You can go to the diet links and pick from the more popular diets that have been fed to gliders for years. There are going to be people who will disect each diet and for various reasons tell you it is improper. The best thing to do for newer glider owners is to pick one of the older diets and try to stick closely to it. Educate yourself as much as possible about the plus and minus effects of what you include in your gliders diet and form your own opinion. I could give you a list of a number of items that people are including in glider diets that I do not approve of but it would only offend some and start an all out diet fight.

Aflatoxins are not at an epidemic level by any means. It is just something that glider owners should be aware of and try to avoid. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#58288 - 09/21/05 06:38 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> Ron,
Well the one problem I see with the diet is the Gerber Chicken sticks, those contain garlic and onion which are not good for gliders, and in fact can harm the liver. I would stop those right away. I have a freind who was giving them and not knowing, her glider was starting to have some liver damage. Since she stopped his liver is improving and he is doing well.
I have no experience with the Darcy's diet so I can't give you any advice there. I talked to my vet at one time about the Ensure for the main diet and she thought it was too high in carbs which could be a problem in time.
I will say that I give mealies but no crickets due to the risks. I believe that even though the FDA does test for aflatoxins in human food, quite a few people are still dying from ingesting the toxins also. I don't know that if you can't buy 100% safe corn products for humans you will find any for gliders.
I feed the gliders here BML, and every single rescue that I get in loves it. I have found that gliders are creatures of habit, they don't get bored with thier food, and I believe they may eat a little more of one thing because thats what thier body needs that day. We have healthy gliders here, and for that I thank the BML diet, even the rescues that come in and are in poor condition usually improve quickly.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Angie

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#58289 - 09/23/05 05:53 AM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


CharlieH & AngieH:

Thank you both very much for all the feedback. I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner but this week has been extremely trying for me. After 8 years of literally *killing* myself for my company, they let me go with no notice or severance package. It's never happened to me before so I'm really just stunned right now. Not looking for sympathy, just explaining my failure to reply!

Angie: Maybe now I can make it to the glider meet-ups! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

I'm taking Scoot to Dr. Murray in about an hour to be neutered and I'm really worried for some reason. He HATES his little pet carrier and I feel so guilty for leaving him in a strange place all day, but it has to be done. Who said owning pets was easy though, right?

I think I have no choice but to switch my whole colony to a BML diet. At this point there are too many questions with the Darcy diet and I can't track down anything verifiable or professionally substantiated to make me feel comfortable with it. Now I get to learn a whole new diet on the fly- oh goody!

Lol. Charlie, I hope I didn't offend you in any way and, if I did, I sincerely apologize! I know you were only trying to help. You're a good guy.

Thanks,
Ron

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#58290 - 10/01/05 06:18 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mods, perhaps this should be a new thread, but it is directly related to aflatoxins - if this needs to be moved, please do so. It seemed to me that since Angie H and Charlie H are here, this was a good place to post this at the moment. Sorry if I am in the wrong place

Wow, this has been a fascinating post, and I really mean that! I have to say this, and maybe I am just being paranoid, but I am really bothered by the aflatoxins issue. I am quoting, in bold, the parts in Charlie H's post that concern me and my gliders.

Firstly, I do not feed crickets, so I have felt pretty safe and secure, and I have tended to just "brush off" previous posts on this topic because I didn't believe that aflatoxins applied to me, until this:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Ellen lost gliders from aflatoxin contamination they got from eating crickets. I purchase feed for my goats, chickens, and birds and have noticed on several ocassions that there would be mold on the seed and grain. Not sure what the statistics are on the dangers of getting peanuts or grain that has aflatoxin but why gamble on your gliders life? The danger of aflatoxin usually is present in corn, grains, and peanuts that have been stored in silos. Any time grains are stored in a place where moisture can collect and mold can form there is a danger of aflatoxin. I don't think there is much to worry about with fresh produce and fresh corn. Correct me if I am wrong.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

HEAVENS TO BETSY!!! Guys, I am one of those who feed the frozen mixed veggies and I am just BOTHERED! I used to feed the generic Wal-Mart brand until I read up on the Lima Bean issue... then, I got tired of picking out the lima beans... so I found the Bird's Eye brand.

Now, with all of the rain everywhere, hurricane season and flooding, etc., I am concerned that with all of the seeds and grains stored in all of these silos across the country, that there is an INCREASED CHANCE of higher incidences aflatoxins.

I am terribly afraid that there could be a mass of mold aflatoxins present in the coming months. I mean, I realize that farmers try to control moisture, etc., and they have to regulate... but what are the chances that there could be issues with our frozen foods?

Charlie H: Your work with rescues is to be recognized and commended! I hope one day that I get the opportunity to meet you and Mary. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Angie H: It was wonderful to finally meet you at this SGGA, and I also admire the work you do with your rescues. I fell in love with Chippi & Gizmo and Nalla & Simba!

Ellen: I remember well your discussion on your gliders at the SGGA roundtables... I am terribly sorry for the loss of your gliders. I can NOT imagine how you hurt and how shocked you had to have been. I know that you are one of the "glider matriarchs" and that you have taken the best of precautions with your gliders, and yet, still suffered a tremendous loss.

I guess my fear is that I don't want any of my little ones to suffer any risks with their foodstuffs. Though I thought I was "safe" since I didn't feed crickets (they didn't like them, thank God, because crickets (canned or otherwise) just gross me out - but - my babies might STILL be at risk with the corn and "the wet rainy season" across the US! Is that true?

I feed the BML diet, and I purchase my mealies from Top Hat in Michigan (they come through Complete Petmart), and from those, I am re-building the "farm" that I lost when I ran off to Arkansas...

What precautions can I take to limit aflatoxins in my frozen veggies? Shall I boil everything? I mean, are my gliders at risk? I feed fresh fruits, and occasionally, I also feed frozen fruits. I always rinse everything very well... but please advise!

COMMENT: I actually just tried to edit this, but I LOST the original edit, this is a "second try" and I just know I have left something out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

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#58291 - 10/01/05 07:34 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
I think the frozen veggies are fine. I have spoken with Bruce and Dr.D. and Texas A&M and they all say the same thing. The veggies do not come from the Delta basin, most come from the Midwest or California or the East. PLUS they are screened for human consumption. When they black light the veggies there is a much higher standard for humans than animals. I have always fed frozen veggies even opposed to fresh. I do not cook them I serve them right from the freezer. With fruit I peal everthing and wash my hands and the pealed fruit. I feed no raseberries or balckberries as I don't feel I can clean them well enough due to all the crevices they have.

Let me point one thing out I have learned about bugs. The corn bedding is the worst. You can use an oatmeal bedding but the trick is to keep the moisture no more than 30% and no less than15%. This is the information I have gotten from Dr. Reagor (Texas A&M Toxicologist)and from the Ball Institute and so many many others.

I have never stopped reserching and begging for answers to the Aflatoxin questions and WHY. I still have several that are alive that were fed the crickets and they now have to be on a very low fat diet as we know thier live is comprimised. So I feed NO mealies and it breaks my heart. But they have not had them in so long and are used to thier treats they get now the mealies would probably scare them to death LOL.

I too feed the BML and I think the ONLY reason I didn't loose all my gliders was because my husband increased the Herptivite for about 6mo. We now feed AS directed by the BML diet. But no extra protien.

Sorry if this has turned into a book but I have such strong feelings and still hurt about my gliders and how I lost them. And it was by my hand.

So there is alot of learning to be done about diets still. I know that at the SGGA that Dr.D. spoke at she had the BML and a couple of other diets broken down and spoke about that. I think some place around best of the board is what she said.

Well, I have said enough. Just really started out to talk about the veggies.
Thanks for listening.
_________________________
Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely....
My Gallery

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#58292 - 10/01/05 08:07 PM Re: Bait Shop Crickets [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh Ron, I am so sorry to hear about your job. It seems to be happening to more and more people, its sad that times have changed in this way. I am glad that hopefully after all this time we can meet you in person.
The diet issue is hard to deal with for some people, I have been very lucky here. Ellen, you have so much to share and I just want to say thanks for working so hard here. I was so glad to have time to visit with everyone this year at the SGGA. Cyndi, it was so great meeting you and your family too. I know you took such good care of the babies and spoiled them so much!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Angie

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