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#584474 - 07/07/08 01:24 PM Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders...
Usha77 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4007
Loc: Greeley, CO
Started from discussion in "I waited to say anything......." in Glider Talk and Traveling"

Here's what I said:

Quote:
According to this website,
http://msc.bhsu.edu/biology/bsmith/mammlec7.html

there are different reproductive variations. These are all different:

Delayed fertilization
Delayed development
Delayed implantation
Embryonic diapause


I believe, from what I have read, that what occurs in Sugar Gliders is actually Delayed implantaion, not Embryonic Diapause. Obviously, I could be wrong. laugh


and

Quote:

Embryonic diapause is when an embryo has been fertilized and implanted and begins to develop, but then is halted part-way through development.

Whereas, Delayed Implantation is when an embryo has been fertilized, but is not implanted right away and is delayed.


Okay, discuss! (politely and rationally, please! wink )
_________________________
Brenda
970-616-2872
mlove
Eugene, Sandy, Seri; Bobbi, Spice; Star, Squiddi; Pearl, Pip; Petrie; Jimny, Pinocchio; Anna & Elsa
And Nacho (dog)
RIP my glider angels: Nynaeve, Poppy, Lan, Toffee, Zoey, Tika & Tas

mlove
Help us help gliders!

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#584505 - 07/07/08 01:50 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: Usha77]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Well, as far as experts on joeys and development, I consider Suz to be the tops! She isn't a doctor or a vet, but she's had more experience with raising joeys than anyone I know of, and is considered "round these parts" to be the expert. I believe she works with an excellent, glider-knowledgeable vet, too.

Suz has mentioned both Delayed Implantation and Embryonic Diapause as being potentially possible in gliders.

As mentioned previously.... there is still so much unknown about gliders and we are learning more and more, as they are being kept as pets more and more. vets see them more often than ever previously.... they are becoming more common "patients" at more vet offices. Our knowledge is growing exponentially.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#584535 - 07/07/08 02:32 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ValkyrieMome]
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4801
Loc: SE Minnesota..
Good researching there Brenda! It is an interesting topic!!
_________________________
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Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:


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#584578 - 07/07/08 03:33 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: GliderLove]
Leyna
Unregistered


Honestly, I think gliders are capable of doing a couple of those...

The only way to know for sure if a glider has delayed implantation vs. embrionic diapause vs. delayed fertilization would be to cut them open and see if that little egg is fertilized and/or developing. I know that I've read in several books that marsupials are capable of embrionic diapause though.

Gliders are also capable of delayed development. I once had a female with a jeoy IP for 96 days. It got about 1/2 way along and stopped growing for like a month. It was the weirdest thing. It was very obvious there was a baby IP, so I know she didn't pull the joey, it just stopped growing... I've actually had this happen a couple times now. My female Ariel just did it with her current baby. Her joey went IP before my glider Apple's and came OOP after wards... I don't know what triggers this behavior, but I find it very interesting.

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#584581 - 07/07/08 03:39 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ]
Usha77 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4007
Loc: Greeley, CO
I do, too. The reason I was guessing Delayed Implantation was because that could be due to external factors and not a lactating joey, which can be the cause of embryonic diapause. I think the whole subject is very mysterious and fascinating.
_________________________
Brenda
970-616-2872
mlove
Eugene, Sandy, Seri; Bobbi, Spice; Star, Squiddi; Pearl, Pip; Petrie; Jimny, Pinocchio; Anna & Elsa
And Nacho (dog)
RIP my glider angels: Nynaeve, Poppy, Lan, Toffee, Zoey, Tika & Tas

mlove
Help us help gliders!

www.sugargroup.org







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#584596 - 07/07/08 04:12 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: Usha77]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
Since it was my post (which btw, I had not checked in days, and from what I have been told, I was getting bashed in it). If someone has an issue with me, I would prefer you come to me. I don't even know what was said, but apparently since it has been removed for review, must be not good. I am not a breeder, and never intended to be. I take good care of my gliders and they are neutered. I cannot control nature. I didn't do anything wrong (I am saying this without having the chance to read the post. Last time I saw anything was Becki congratulating me.) I'm not trying to stir things up here, but I hope I will get a chance to see all the posts, so if there is an issue, I will get to answer it directly. I'm sorry if there is issue with my having Pennie. Although she was not planned (nor expected) I am not angry she is here. She is healthy and loved.
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#584603 - 07/07/08 04:21 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: pappy1264]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Mary - you were not being bashed as such. Just your claims that Pennie was fathered as reported were questioned. Was Wyatt the father - which was stated was certainly the fact. Although, how anyone can be certain without genetic testing is beyond me!

Thus, this topic. Is it possible for a female to hold the joey? or the egg? or the sperm?
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#584604 - 07/07/08 04:22 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: pappy1264]
Kiiru Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 2969
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Mary, someone was just trying to say that it's impossible for that to happen, you were lieing about it, and we were gullible. ^-^ And, that Wyatt was more than likely the father.

The whole thing was interesting though...it's weird thinking that these critters can delay implantation but, I believe they can. I know that some animals bodies will delay their pegnancy due to lack of food,water,overcrowding,etc. It's still weird how that happens though. roflmao They just know that now isn't the right time so they halt it. That's what makes us different from animals and it's so strange.
_________________________
-Nicole
2 doves,1 dog,and 5 gliders...
* Yin and Yang
* Razzle, Tictac, and Kitkat - "The trio"

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#584607 - 07/07/08 04:23 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: pappy1264]
Usha77 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4007
Loc: Greeley, CO
Mary, there was some question about whether what happened with Pennie (how she was held in stasis for so long) is even possible. Your thread became a discussion on whether or not it was scientifically/medically possible for that to happen. I, for one, would like to keep that discussion going, which is why I created this thread. But then, I was PMing with a mod and your thread was being looked at and possibly edited, maybe even into separate posts, I am not sure at this point what is happening with it or if this thread is going to become moot... dunno
_________________________
Brenda
970-616-2872
mlove
Eugene, Sandy, Seri; Bobbi, Spice; Star, Squiddi; Pearl, Pip; Petrie; Jimny, Pinocchio; Anna & Elsa
And Nacho (dog)
RIP my glider angels: Nynaeve, Poppy, Lan, Toffee, Zoey, Tika & Tas

mlove
Help us help gliders!

www.sugargroup.org







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#584609 - 07/07/08 04:26 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: Usha77]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
roflmao How many of you were posting at the same time! roflmao
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Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
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Nevada, Noel
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Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
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#584610 - 07/07/08 04:29 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: Usha77]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: LSardou
This thread will remain open unless it goes off topic.
If there are any questions at to what was said in the previous thread please take it to PM.
Thank you.

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#584613 - 07/07/08 04:34 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: Mel2mdl]
scraptilldawn Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 803
Loc: Ontario, Canada
This topic is so very interesting and it would be excellent to hear more cases of people experiencing it first hand. I have read about cases with Kangaroos and Wallaby's in captivity that held joey's in stasis from the loss of their mate. It's difficult to find information on Sugar Gliders as not too much is documented, but then, hey, good thing we're here! Share your story!
_________________________
Peekaboogliders

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#584631 - 07/07/08 05:06 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: scraptilldawn]
Monster
Unregistered


In 2005, Monster and Stewie had their first joeys (Clotho & Little). Almost immediatley, Monster was out of milk and the joeys had to be hand-fed (they stayed with the parents even though I was feeding). A couple weeks into their feedings, I noticed that Monster had a pea - but was it possible for her to be pregnant!?! And sure enough, when the twins were approx 8 weeks OOP, out came another joey (Punkin).

Miss Sheila had been kind enough to sit on the phone with me for hours at a time since this was my first time hand-feeding & she had so much experience. We had discussed this possiblity as a reason for why Monster's milk supply ran dry, but were still suprised to see it happen.

So, was delayed implantation the cause? Because she was already carrying joeys when she would have conceived...

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#584637 - 07/07/08 05:14 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ]
Kiiru Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 2969
Loc: Syracuse, NY
I would say that it wasn't delayed implantation since female gliders can become pregnant while they have joeys ip and it's extremly rare for a glider to have more than 2 joeys at a time anyway. I could be wrong though.

Geeze...I was reading about delayed implantation in kangaroos not too long ago. That's weird! It sounds like it's normal for kangaroos to have delayed implantation too.
_________________________
-Nicole
2 doves,1 dog,and 5 gliders...
* Yin and Yang
* Razzle, Tictac, and Kitkat - "The trio"

Top
#584645 - 07/07/08 05:29 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
I don't know who the dad was, I believe it was Bandit, as does my vet. She has seen it with her own eyes (she neutered the male and there was no other gliders involved). I guess short of a dna test, I won't really know for sure. What I do know, Pennie will never be bred, she is not going anywhere and she is healthy and loved. I was not trying to open a can of worms for this group. I'm sorry if I did. I do know when Bandit was neutered and when Wyatt came oop, it was longer then it should have been and always considered he was held in stasis (Bandit was neutered May 28, Wyatt came oop Aug. 19.)
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#584650 - 07/07/08 05:37 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: pappy1264]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Mary and all, be assured that as soon as the Admin have a chance to take out the "rude" and uncalled for post the thread will be put back. There is too much good info in there not to be put back

It is the age old problem of how some folks come off when they post. If you heard them in person you would be able to answer right away and there would be no problem. But as we has suggested, when you type and type what you are thinking at the same time it sometimes comes out harsh. I always encourage members to read their post before posting.

So, to all my hopes it will be back soon.
_________________________
Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely....
My Gallery

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#584652 - 07/07/08 05:38 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: Ellen]
Usha77 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4007
Loc: Greeley, CO
Thank you, Ellen! laugh
_________________________
Brenda
970-616-2872
mlove
Eugene, Sandy, Seri; Bobbi, Spice; Star, Squiddi; Pearl, Pip; Petrie; Jimny, Pinocchio; Anna & Elsa
And Nacho (dog)
RIP my glider angels: Nynaeve, Poppy, Lan, Toffee, Zoey, Tika & Tas

mlove
Help us help gliders!

www.sugargroup.org







Top
#584660 - 07/07/08 05:48 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: Usha77]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
Thanks Ellen. I didn't even know it was happening. I read from 'the last 24 hours', most times I have no clue where the post I am replying to is in (what forum). I had not seen it (my post) in a couple of days. One thing I do want to say (and thought I did in the first post), I don't know who the father is, and ultimately will never know for sure. But I trust my vet and she does believe it is Bandit's. And bottom line, she is here and will never be bred (or go anywhere). I am very thankful she is healthy and growing well.
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#584666 - 07/07/08 06:01 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: Usha77]
rachael
Unregistered


Mods Please put back the thread it did have some good info in there
before I left I didnt feel there was anything that warranted the removal of the thread but after that maybe.
The links and references were valuable info

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#584685 - 07/07/08 06:30 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
I said we would. Give us time. There is other things going on too. So please be patient. Thank you.

Ellen
_________________________
Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely....
My Gallery

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#584788 - 07/07/08 08:39 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: pappy1264]
Monster
Unregistered


I have had 7 males neutered and my vet warned me each and every time that they could still conceive up to 4 months post-neuter.

Could this "disclaimer" be the culprit, or is the time frame still too far apart? (I didn't read the post that triggered this one - sorry for being a little late in the game)


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#584813 - 07/07/08 08:52 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Originally Posted By: Monster
I have had 7 males neutered and my vet warned me each and every time that they could still conceive up to 4 months post-neuter.
wow, I've always been told 30 days, but 4 months? shock
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#584918 - 07/07/08 10:46 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: BeckiT]
scraptilldawn Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 803
Loc: Ontario, Canada
We had an unfortunate inbreeding with our cats when our male was neutered as a kitten and a few weeks after was allowed back with his mother. They were both indoor cats, had never been outside and were housed separately until weeks after the neuter. She turned up pregnant and the only possibility was that he had left over sperm weeks after the neuter.
_________________________
Peekaboogliders

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#584928 - 07/07/08 10:58 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: scraptilldawn]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Wow I am glad I read this because I assumed it was only a few days after neutering that a male was still able to impregnate the female.
Months is scary and even if it is only one month that would still put our females in danger of breeding with a father, brother, or son if it's a family colony.
We usually put the male back with his mates within a few days if not that night.

So to be safe how long would a male need to be removed from his family if their was a possibility of inbreeding.

_________________________
-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
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www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

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#584968 - 07/07/08 11:49 PM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: Trigger]
Monster
Unregistered


Mods - is there a way to split this into two posts. One with the original topic in mind and another regarding neutering/potency timeframe and inbreeding. It just seems like the main topic has been lost...

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#585102 - 07/08/08 09:25 AM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
Ok, since I now was able to read (most of) the original post, I hope I will be allowed to say something here. When I posted about Pennie, I told my experience. Did I say Wyatt was not the father? Nope, I said what is believed. I will never know for sure. I DO KNOW I did not deliberately do something to have this happen. Wyatt was 4 months, 1 week and 3 days old when neutered. He had just the slightest beginning (thinning) on the top of his head, had not shown any interest in mom or any sexual behavior that my older gliders did before neuter. Now, I don't know for sure, heck my vet can't say 100%, but she has seen it happen, when there are no other gliders aside from the male/female pair. I don't know all there is to know in this world, no one does. To call me a liar is wrong, because I DID NOT SAY BEYOND A DOUBT that Bandit is the dad. I put it out there and let you come to you own conclusions. Is Bandit the dad? Is Wyatt the dad? I don't know, truly. But what I DO KNOW is Pennie is healthy, she is loved, she will NEVER be bred and she will never leave this family. I wanted to share something that was special to me, with all that was happening with Timmy. I love my gliders and do the very best I can for them. I have NEVER bred on purpose, all my gliders have been neutered because I KNEW I could never rehome a joey and well, I can only take care of so many. I do not regret Pennie, but truth be told, I wasn't looking for another mouth to feed and was not trying to have this happen. I had Cole neutered at the very same age (he was in with three females) and no joeys. Should Wyatt have been neutered earlier? Maybe, but I went with what I read and felt was the right time.

Rachel, I think you need to pick and chose your words a little better. You may know alot about gliders but before you accuse someone of something, reread my post. I was not trying to scam anyone or lie to anyone. I shared my experience. There are alot of things that happen in this world with no explanation and we are all learning every day. So until you can say you 'KNOW' for sure (which I hate to say in this world, won't happen) I would suggest you pick your words better.

I have had my say and I am not trying to rehash things. I just wanted to state me peace.

I love Pennie and I hope I can share her with this group. She deserves it just like anyone else.
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#585124 - 07/08/08 09:44 AM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: pappy1264]
Leyna
Unregistered


I read the original post about Pennie and after reading some peoples responses, where they questioning any for of delayed implantation, dispause, etc. Please explain to me how, a female glider in my possession, who had not been housed with another male for over 3 months, ended up with joeys IP??? Her last contact with a male glider was 6 MONTHS prior to the date her joeys actually emerged from her pouch.

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#585131 - 07/08/08 09:50 AM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ]
Mio
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Leyna
Please explain to me how, a female glider in my possession, who had not been housed with another male for over 3 months, ended up with joeys IP??? Her last contact with a male glider was 6 MONTHS prior to the date her joeys actually emerged from her pouch.


It didn't happen! clown You were dreaming! crazy

roflmao roflmao

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#585139 - 07/08/08 09:54 AM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ]
Leyna
Unregistered


You're on to me Brit wink I like to make up stories to confuse the glider community... While I'm on a honesty kick... Naw, I better not tell...

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#585147 - 07/08/08 10:03 AM Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... [Re: ]
Mio
Unregistered


Yup, yup, yup. Bow to me, the Glider Detective! dance Shame on you, Leyna! grin

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