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#597210 - 07/26/08 10:53 PM Question about breeding..
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
I have a question for all of you and hopefully you can help me understand this a little better.

In a topic of conversation I was having with someone who has gliders, they had mentioned that they were told that it was wrong to breed Leucistics to Leucistics. They had bought their Leucistic females for the purpose of breeding to a Leucistic male, but were told they couldn't and shouldn't and decided then to get rid of their females.

Can someone tell me why this is dangerous? Or wrong?
He mentioned something about inbreeding, but I don't quite understand the concept of inbreeding if the animals aren't coming from the same parents or grandprents, even.



_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#597214 - 07/26/08 11:00 PM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
I'm not an expert, but from what I understand there are only a few (three, I believe) lines of leucistics. If you breed two leus, you are breeding too closely within the lines. The whole purpose of breeding is to breed out the lines. This is why you see leus paired with white faces or even pretty standard grays. This produces 100% het for leucistic gliders that are one more generation removed from the line. These 100% leus or lesser percent hets (my leus dad was a 66% het that proved out to be a 100% het) make better mates for leucistic gliders.

I know that is all super confusing and I'm not the best at explaining it. Here is a link: http://www.epicsugargliders.com/colorbreeding.html I'm sure others will be along with clearer explanations. thumb
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~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#597216 - 07/26/08 11:10 PM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: StitchsMom]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
No, no! Not confusing at all! I very much appreciate your explanation.

I just kind of felt bad for the gliders. He bought them and had to get rid of them. I just didn't realize that the lineage was so few for Leucistics.

Too close for comfort, leaving too much room for abnormalities and disfigured babies. frown

Did breeders used to breed Leucistics to Leucistics and found this out through the birthing cycles that were abnormal?
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#597219 - 07/26/08 11:25 PM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
its just genetics shanna. breed the same line over and over again your going to have problems.
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~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#597305 - 07/27/08 08:58 AM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Originally Posted By: Devil_Bunny_Girl
Did breeders used to breed Leucistics to Leucistics and found this out through the birthing cycles that were abnormal?
There was a lot of inbreeding done when leus were first bred for in order to get more of the color.. Right now there's one breeder I'm aware of breeding leu x leu, and that would be Dianne of Heartland Gliders (she has a thread here somewhere about it if I'm not mistaken) I wouldn't do it, but, that's my own personal choice, I'm trying to breed out the lines for the health of future gliders..
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#597324 - 07/27/08 09:59 AM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: BeckiT]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
I agree, that is very sad that he "got rid" of his girls because he shouldn't breed leucistic to leucistic. It seems like they should have done a bit more research.

There are many different opinions on the subject. I do know of at least 2 breeders now with white to white pairings. They are claiming they are at least second cousins, and are only doing it as a "learning experience" to benefit the community.

I personally haven't see any records such as number of heat cycles vs. successful pregnancies. Then successful pregnancies vs. healthy gliders all the way through adulthood. (keeping track as best you can as to any possible genetic health problems along the way). Until that is done, I wouldn't wouldn't do it, and I would not recommend doing something I personally wouldn't do. While I agree it would be nice to "know" if there are any problems, I wouldn't want to be the first to prove there IS a problem. Even IF there was someone genuinely doing it as a learning project, it needs to be someone that is extremely knowledgeable in all aspects of sugar glider care and breeding.

Most respected and responsible breeders are working on breeding out the lines on some level. Pairing white to white is very frowned upon, and comes with a negative stigma within the sugar glider community. This can make selling the joeys from these pairs extremely difficult. Though some people are looking for "pet leucistics", many people are looking to set up or add to their own breeding programs. Those responsible breeders that are going to breed, aren't going to want to take chances with their own breeding program.
_________________________
Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders

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#597328 - 07/27/08 10:09 AM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: petsugargliders]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Ah, I see.

It's a shame really, if you think about it, that in the glider world we have some really beautiful specimen of gliders because of how people used to breed, which is now frowned upon.

If it weren't for inbreeding, technically then we wouldn't have some of the beautiful creatures we now have. I find that totally fascinating!

I hope no one takes offence to what I just said, I don't mean it offensively. I am just thankful for you that are engaging in this conversation with me and helping me learn.

Thank you so much!
_________________________
~Bunny A.K.A. Shanna Banana~

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#597333 - 07/27/08 10:17 AM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Devil_Bunny_Girl
Ah, I see.

It's a shame really, if you think about it, that in the glider world we have some really beautiful specimen of gliders because of how people used to breed, which is now frowned upon.

If it weren't for inbreeding, technically then we wouldn't have some of the beautiful creatures we now have. I find that totally fascinating!



The colors we have were not created by inbreeding. These sugar gliders had the genetics for these colors. The colors were then maintained and reproduced through a milder form of inbreeding called line breeding.

Most responsible breeders did very well with line breeding. They worked very hard to maintain good lines by introducing new blood to the lines to help prevent the problems caused by inbreeding too closely.

Unfortunately where there is money to be made, there is greed as well. Early on in the lines some breeders didn't care for "lines" and actually inbred to the point of sterility. Today, we are a lot more educated. There is no point in closely inbreeding these lines.
_________________________
Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders

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#597340 - 07/27/08 10:26 AM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: petsugargliders]
7glider7
Unregistered


Well...line breeding is essentially carefully planned inbreeding.

If I'm not mistaken, at least one of the leu lines bred some pretty close relatives (possibly even a brother-sister pairing if I'm thinking correctly, please tell me if I'm wrong breeding gurus) to make more leu gliders to have enough leu gliders to START the line.

You are correct though that we wouldn't have these color lines without line breeding or inbreeding. When you have a rare color mutation come up, it's pretty much necessary to create enough animals with that color mutation to continue the line.

However, just because this was done to START the color doesn't mean it should continue to be done. From a genetics standpoint, in my humble opinion, that would be idiotic. You're pretty much asking for deleterious traits to arise. Breeding the line out is a much more responsible thing to do to keep a healthy leu population around for a long time.

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#597351 - 07/27/08 11:00 AM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: ]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
Yes, there was some pretty close inbreeding in some of the lines early on. Many have chalked it up to a "learning experience", others find it was just out of greed (either monetarily or status wise), and some just accepted it as the way it had to be. It all comes down to your opinion.

I am sad to say it is still going on today. I run the PSG database, and have seen some VERY close lines lately. Although in my opinion, close inbreeding (father/daughter, brother/sister) wasn't necessary then, and it most definitely isn't now.
_________________________
Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders

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#597365 - 07/27/08 11:28 AM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: petsugargliders]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
So, when is it "ok" to breed one glider to another when there is leucistic in both backgrounds? I know there are hundreds of differing opinions, but I'm finding it hard to understand when it is acceptable. All hets will have some leu in the background...isn't that all inbreeding in one way or another? I'm guessing that this is why people choose to breed their leus to non-leu lines. There is no worry about inbreeding at all this way. I want to breed Ivory to a het, but I'm having a tough time knowing which lucky little boy out there would be a good mate.

I also agree that it's a shame that any glider is rehomed simply because the owner was uninformed. I've been reading up on this stuff for years and I still get confused. I only recently brought home my little girl. She still won't have a mate for quite some time, but I'm making sure I do it right for her sake as well as mine.
_________________________
~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#597376 - 07/27/08 11:52 AM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: StitchsMom]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
Originally Posted By: StitchsMom
So, when is it "ok" to breed one glider to another when there is leucistic in both backgrounds? I know there are hundreds of differing opinions, but I'm finding it hard to understand when it is acceptable.


If we NEVER put two sugar gliders together from leucistic lines, there would be no more white sugar gliders produced. What isn't acceptable (by most breeder's standards) is pairing sugar gliders together that are two closely related. Most breeders will agree that pairing should be at least 2nd cousins or better.

It is best to avoid pedigrees that are excessively inbred. There are some pedigrees that will have a specific glider named up to 4 or 5 times in a 4 generation pedigree. Many breeders agree that these gliders shouldn't be bred, but honestly, it is each breeders judgment call.

The bottom line here is research prospective pedigrees thoroughly. Weigh the pros and cons of the possible pairing prior to purchase. Think about and configure your own standards, and develop a goal that you want to work for in your pairings. In the end the only opinion that matters is your own.
_________________________
Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders

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#597378 - 07/27/08 12:03 PM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: petsugargliders]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
Originally Posted By: petsugargliders
Most breeders will agree that pairing should be at least 2nd cousins or better.


This is what I was looking for. Thank you.

Of course we have to cross lines somewhere if we want to keep the color going. I totally understand that. What I wasn't getting was how far removed they should be before you even consider breeding them. Obviously, the farther removed the better, but I didn't know if there was an acceptable standard.
_________________________
~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#597400 - 07/27/08 12:58 PM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: StitchsMom]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Jenny, here's a chart that helps figure ut out a little more (from Jennifer's site even, lol)

http://www.petsugargliders.com/sgkin.php
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#597407 - 07/27/08 01:16 PM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: BeckiT]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
_________________________
~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#597449 - 07/27/08 03:24 PM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: petsugargliders]
Devil_Bunny_Girl Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Buckeye, AZ
Originally Posted By: petsugargliders

Unfortunately where there is money to be made, there is greed as well. Early on in the lines some breeders didn't care for "lines" and actually inbred to the point of sterility.


That greatly disturbs me. What's sad is that anyone can breed, any kind of animal -- suggies, horses, dogs, cats, etc (I'm sorry for comparing apples to oranges here) -- and could know not of what they are doing and essentially put their animals at risk because they don't know how closely related their mating pairs truly are. Or don't care, like you said here; because money is to be made.

That's really sad. frown That hurts me inside knowing that people do that and ignore the possible negative effects that may (can and probably will) happen.


I really do appreciate everyone here sharing with me on this topic.

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#597466 - 07/27/08 04:06 PM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: petsugargliders]
7glider7
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: petsugargliders
[ Think about and configure your own standards, and develop a goal that you want to work for in your pairings. In the end the only opinion that matters is your own.


I hope though that as people continue to breed they not only think about their own goals (which, unfortunately for some people, is greed) but also consider what is best for the line of animals as well. Responsible breeding is not just about what you are comfortable pairing (because there will always be different opinions on what is too inbred and what is appropriate between breeders), but also what is best genetically and health-wise for the line.

I have noticed some people having trouble finding good homes for their leus, and I suspect that for some of these leus it's at least in part because of their genetics and the level of inbreeding. People won't purchase them because they feel they are too inbred.

Jennifer, you are a wealth of knowledge about this. Thanks so much for the info smile I had not heard the 2nd cousin rule before.

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#597649 - 07/27/08 09:20 PM Re: Question about breeding.. [Re: ]
petsugargliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Andover, Ohio
You would hope that anyone breeding at all would configure their goals in the best interest of the animal. I truly believe that most responsible breeders do.

You are responsible for each joey you have OOP, as well as their welfare, health, and care. If you produce sugar glider joeys that no one wants, especially from inbred or "questionable" lines and pairings, you have to think what will happen to those joeys they produce.

Right now there are quite a few leucistic out there for sale. Many have wonderful lines, and still haven't found great homes. IMO, homes looking for a leucistic to add to their family would rather get one from a good pairing, than one that is questionable in nature.



_________________________
Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders

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