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#600911 - 07/31/08 01:46 PM Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1732
Loc: Utah
Hey all I am wondering my Ariel died recently from a tumor in her liver. The vet stated that they have never seen this type of tumor before in a glider. But I was noticing that we have lost two gliders recently to liver tumors and have several on here that are fighting lymphoma. Is there someone around that is compiling information on this so maybe we can find a way to fight this in our babies or maybe even prevent it? I would really like to know who might be doing that as I will gladly send Ariel's necropsy report to them if it will help at all.

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#600921 - 07/31/08 01:59 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: silverwolf]
7glider7
Unregistered


I think this is *really* important for us to do, especially since I think Cora mentioned that her vet said that for a glider to develop lymphoma at 1 year of age, it is likely genetic.

Personally, IMHO, I think that it would be wise for this to be compiled, and also for owners to contact the breeder of their glider if the glider develops cancer (if the glider was purchased from a breeder). If a breeder starts seeing a high prevalence of cancer in certain lines or from certain pairings of gliders, then this should influence decisions on which gliders are and are not bred.

We might possibly be able to prevent this from becoming more prevalent in gliders by careful breeding.

I know that in quite a few purebred dog breeds, certain types of cancers are very prevalent, and it is largely genetic. It seems likely that perhaps some types of liver cancers or lymphomas are genetic in gliders as well. By compiling data and breeding carefully now, we can possibly prevent cancer from being more prevalent in gliders and possibly help future gliders live longer and healthier lives.

My condolences hug2 for everyone who has had to go through this with their glider. I know it must be so hard. hug2

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#600929 - 07/31/08 02:13 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
As soon as Peanut's necropsy report comes in, I will make a copy of it for you and please send me a copy of yours. Maybe we can all figure out something or see something in common on them. I pray so. This really hurts not knowing what is happening.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#600985 - 07/31/08 03:39 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: SugarBlossoms]
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1732
Loc: Utah
I agree Jen I think we need to look at this. Like my vet had told me he had never seen any reports of this type of tumor in a glider. If we can get this information out there then maybe it will help other vets with going about treating out babies that seem to develop this. The vet felt that her liver tumor was probably a freak thing and not genetic but it seem there are a sting of them happening lately. One thing he did say was that fatty masses in the liver can cause tumors but he didn't see any of those in my Ariel. But her one daughter is a tub and the vet is concerned about her weight. So I am getting her checked thoroughly for any problems. But I agree that if there is a genetic link we need to know about this and be more careful with out breeding.

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#601081 - 07/31/08 05:31 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: silverwolf]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
When The vet told me it was genetic I did inform the breeder, unfortunately it was CCW...................He was not so concerned............said it was the first he had heard. That was before I knew better, before I came to GC!!
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#601132 - 07/31/08 06:24 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: Cora]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
Cora, is there any type of early testing that would show this in the blood or something.
_________________________
-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com

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#601149 - 07/31/08 06:50 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: Trigger]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
I am wondering how many of our gliders that have this (or had) are greys or WFB or any other color?

Peanut = Grey
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#601175 - 07/31/08 07:15 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: SugarBlossoms]
theresaw Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 07/02/05
Posts: 307
Loc: United States
I had a necropsy done on my glider "Imp" when she died 6 years ago and one of the findings was liver cancer. Theresa

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#601184 - 07/31/08 07:30 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: silverwolf]
7glider7
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: silverwolf
The vet felt that her liver tumor was probably a freak thing and not genetic but it seem there are a sting of them happening lately. One thing he did say was that fatty masses in the liver can cause tumors but he didn't see any of those in my Ariel.


If the liver tumors aren't genetic but we're seeing a string of them, I also think it's worthwhile to study the correlation of liver tumors with diet to see if there is something in the diets we are feeding that might be promoting fatty buildup in the liver or susceptibility to tumors dunno

This reminds me of the article that came out a while back studying BML and a couple of other sugar glider diets. I remember in the discussion they remarked that there were actually many MORE vitamins in the diets than what their metabolism requires, and the researchers questioned the long-term effects of this load on the liver, if I'm not mistaken.

If nobody else wants to do it, I would be willing to collect this information and set up a database to see if there is any correlation between lymphomas and liver tumors and genetics and diet.

I am not a pro at statistical analysis, so if anyone is, it would be great to have that help, but I do have a science background, so I guess that is a start.

Let me know what you guys think.

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#601235 - 07/31/08 08:58 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: ]
Monster
Unregistered


Thank you Jen - I think anyone willing to gather the info is a good start!

Just since you mentioned the whole "fat" issue - my vet seemed to think that I didn't have enough fat in my diet. I feed Priscilla's & she thinks that I need to use full fat yogurt instead of the nonfat, cut out the chicken, and use 50% insects instead of 20-30%. I asked about pinkies & she said that they had too much protein & not enough fat. Just thought I'd throw this out there...

My vet did say that we don't really know what causes this, but that there is believed to be a genetic component. I kept asking if this or that could have caused it & she said that I could try to come up with reasons why all day long, but bottom line is that it just happens & we don't know enough to figure out why yet...


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#601246 - 07/31/08 09:22 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: ]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
OK, I need clarification first on terms and then something to add once clarification is given....

What is the name for cancer of the liver because I thought LYMPHoma was a cancer of the Lymph nodes?
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#601249 - 07/31/08 09:29 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: angelic4296]
Monster
Unregistered


I don't know about the liver cancer, but you're correct about the lymphoma...

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#601250 - 07/31/08 09:29 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: angelic4296]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Regarding lymphoma, I have an autoimmune disease called Rhuematoid Arthritis (alot of you know this) and am at 70 TIMES the risk for developing lymphoma during my lifetime because of the connection between lymph nodes and immune system (I'd be happy to explain that connection if anyone is interested).

One of the things that has ALWAYS been recommended to me by my rheumatologist is a good multi-vitamin with calcium (so we're doing something right guys) and vitamins B, C and E, which boost the immune system. I wonder about our gliders' immune systems regarding the development of lymphoma, which seems to be occuring more often, shame - is that a weird thought? I just know that with me for example, instead of my immune system attacking a DISEASE such as a cold or flu, it on a continuous basis mistakes my HEALTHY cells (joints, synovial fluid, cartilage etc....) as the enemy and attacks them instead, therefore messing up my lymph nodes, which get confused, therefore the increase for lymphoma for me.

I need someone with more diet experience...what have we taken into consideration in the way of vitamins B,C, and E, WITHOUT going overboard and increasing liver tumors? Any feedback from anyone??
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#601253 - 07/31/08 09:32 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: angelic4296]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
I know protein and calcium are biggies, as they should be, but I wonder....what time has been spent researching or at least considering what we all as glider owners do to protect their immune systems and everything associated with it, aka lymph nodes?
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#601257 - 07/31/08 09:35 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: angelic4296]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
Don't get me wrong, with any autoimmune disease, the goal is to SUPPRESS the immune system so it doesn't go nuts and make my body "flare," in others words, render me incapacitated....however, there's that fine line where I need good things SUPPORTING my immune system because when you shut an immune system off (like what happens with the meds I'm on), you're obviously at risk to get sick way more often - I was on 9 different anti-biotics last winter for example - anything from a cold to, yup, cancer....I'm just throwing this out there, I don't even know if I'm making sense....
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#601259 - 07/31/08 09:36 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: angelic4296]
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1732
Loc: Utah
I am really interested in seeing if we can come up with some answers. I will try and find out what the liver tumor was called. I know it was not the lymphoma but I just noticed that so many seem to have contracted it lately. I think that sugarblossoms had a good idea tho in trying to figure out what color variations might be showing this the most. That way maybe we can watch for some corelation there.

Ariel was a grey

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#601398 - 08/01/08 12:12 AM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: silverwolf]
sassigliders
Unregistered


I think it is wonderful that everyone wants to find answers to these serious glider issues and work so hard to help each other.

I have been very lucky with my gliders health, but it is so comforting to know there is someplace I can come for answers if I ever have something like this happen.

You are all doing a great thing for all of us and our gliders!

Thank you!

Many Many prayers being said for all the ill gliders and for answers to help prevent/cure them.

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#601690 - 08/01/08 11:01 AM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: ]
Monster
Unregistered


Fawkes is a 3 1/2 yr old neutered male gray - he is a twin and was allowed to breed before he was fixed.

Jen, let me know if you need any more info...

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#602065 - 08/01/08 06:18 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: Trigger]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
Originally Posted By: Trigger
Cora, is there any type of early testing that would show this in the blood or something.


Sorry I missed this..................................I dont know if there is a way to test for cancer in gliders. I dont think there is for people either. It is just one of those things..............................Just like people they are going to die of something ............................its anyones guess as to what. It is scary that it is probably genetic but hopefully the gene is not too prevalent. More studies certainly need to be done ..............................
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#602073 - 08/01/08 06:23 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: Cora]
Monster
Unregistered


I don't think that the vets meant it was always genetic, just that some gliders may have a genetic predisposition.

I think that this could be one reason for establishing baselines for gliders - so that when we do bloodwork, we know if something is off.

Like Dr. Tristan was saying at the SGGA, no one ever does bloodwork unless something is wrong, so we don't have good info for healthy gliders. Just the same, the info for MY healthy glider may be different than for YOUR healthy glider just based on environment, age, sex, etc...

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#602086 - 08/01/08 06:35 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Gina, I found this a while back...

scroll down and there are links for the blood

Vet manual
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#602090 - 08/01/08 06:43 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Monster
Unregistered


What Dr. Tristan explained at the SGGA is that the numbers they do have were from a study that involved a small quantity of lab-raised gliders. These numbers may work in comparison with your glider, but then again they may not - again, due to environment, age, sex, and other factors.

He said that it is important for each glider to have their own baseline established so that the vet can determine when something is "off" for that particular glider.

I don't know if I'm making sense here...

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#602103 - 08/01/08 07:09 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: ]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
Gina, you're making perfect sense.

I talked to my vet on Wednesday about the handful of things I wrote down while Dr. Tristan was talking, one of them being to get a blood sample for a baseline since he had to anesthetize a couple of my boys the past 2 days (for ANOTHER tail amputation & a neutering). Doc thought it was a very good idea & all, but said that GETTING a blood sample was a little challenging. I agreed that while they're AWAKE that might be true....however, while they're knocked out I thought it would be rather easy. As the old saying goes, by the time everything was said & done---it was talked about but not done. The boys woke up & the thought was lost.

But it was rather amusing...Doc was thumbing through my notes, commenting here & there about this or that.

The one thing I didn't write down was Dr. Tristan's first name...did anyone catch it? dunno
_________________________
Minkasmom (Papillon Kisses)
Slave to:
28 gliders,
5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#602114 - 08/01/08 07:24 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: minkasmom]
Monster
Unregistered


Tim

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#602161 - 08/01/08 09:08 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: ]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
But isn't it too dangerous to routinely take blood from a glider? I had spoken to my vet about doing this with Roo (to check her liver enzymes, as she had been on such a bad diet for such a long time). She said there are alot of risks involved in doing that (I believe one being just their size and blood volume). I always get baselines done on my dogs and if there was a safe way to do it, would also on my gliders (so you know what their 'normal' is.)
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#602167 - 08/01/08 09:17 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: pappy1264]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
Maybe you should have your vet consult with Dr Tristin Mary. You can PM srlb(Peggy for his number). He apparently has a lot of experience in this area.
_________________________
USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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#602202 - 08/01/08 10:42 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: pappy1264]
theresaw Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 07/02/05
Posts: 307
Loc: United States
The liver cancer on Imp's necropsy was hepatocellular carcinoma. Theresa

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#602237 - 08/01/08 11:30 PM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: theresaw]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Peanut was so anemic, Dr. Williams didn't want to try to get blood. She was very weak, her nose, hands and feet (gums too) were white. She thought about trying a tiny blood sample from cutting a nail too short but were afraid of doing that also. She was just too sick. frown

I'm going insane waiting on the necropsy reports frown
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#602288 - 08/02/08 01:19 AM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Other than size, and it's safe to take ONE PERCENT of a glider's weight in blood volume only, which may not be enough for some panels, depending on the glider's weight, they normally need to be put under for them, so anesthesia risks are present, and the fact that any puncture puts out the risk of infection as well. These are the primary reasons blood is not routinely taken on gliders unless there is a real need to do so-and even then on a smaller glider they may not be able to get enough for the amount of blood the tests we have require.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#602351 - 08/02/08 08:40 AM Re: Cancer and tumor growths in Gliders [Re: Xfilefan]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
That is what my vet said to me. Since Roo has been healthy (she had worms, and then a nasty UTI, but otherwise has been doing well), she thought the risks outweighed the need.
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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